What are you trying to say here, exactly? Are you suggesting that we should actually NOT be using Private Relay, and all of the other stuff that Apple is rolling out in order for us to improve our privacy? Frankly I couldn't give a toss what Apple's motives are when they provide me with tools and services that suit my purposes. You may share your private data if you wish. Let us others choose to not share ours as we might wish also.
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UK Network Operators Target iCloud Private Relay in Complaint to Regulator
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The Mobile UK Team | Hamish MacLeod | Gareth Elliott
Hamish MacLeod has served as the Director of Mobile UK since its formation in March 2016. Gareth joined Mobile UK in 2017. He heads up policy and communications with a focus on mobile coverage and future infrastructure requirements and deployment.
www.mobileuk.org
Ultimately it’s probably best to petition EFF to call out their ********.
Thanks.nah, those are the only networks. all the others are MVNO's that run on the big networks. I've been with Giffgaff since 2010 when I got an iPhone 4 and that, as you know, uses O2's network.
Some other ones that use O2 are Sky Mobile and Tesco Mobile. SMARTY uses Three and VOXI is Vodafone. You can see the full list here:
When I first tried it as part of the iOS 15 beta Private Relay had some issues. Some pages would load slowly or not at all. I turned it off and tried it again when iOS 15 was released. It was a bit unstable still but better. Now I run Private Relay 24/7 on both my iPhone + iPad with hardly any problems. There were a couple times when I logged into Amazon i'd get a notification saying I had logged in from the US (I'm in the UK) but that hasn't happened recently and the only other minor inconvenience I have with it is when I try to access my router settings through Safari because it will eventually freeze the page. If I'm going to be messing about with the router configuration I'll temporily disable Private Relay.
These ISP complaints are ironically pretty strong endorsements of Private Relay IMO, but given your results I think I’ll wait until it gets out of beta before I enable it.
'Some' valid arguments to to be made here, but they lead to a silly conclusion that they won't be able to compete. However this complaint will bear weight in the case against Apple.
It is a is point about the malware etc as networks tend to have built in protection. And they don't appreciate it when others try to circumnavigate those protections for all its users.
It is a is point about the malware etc as networks tend to have built in protection. And they don't appreciate it when others try to circumnavigate those protections for all its users.
No. ALL smaller providers in the UK buy into one of the four network providers.
“Network providers would no longer be able to use web traffic data over Safari to develop their own digital products and services that complete directly with Apple. For example, a network provider may no longer have access to information about a user's content viewing habits to develop their own content that competes with Apple TV. Similarly, a network provider may no longer be able to share consumer insight with third parties that provide digital advertizing services in competition with Apple Search Ads...”
Great! ISPs have no business analyzing web traffic data and use that data to develop services. They also have no business sharing it with third parties.
Amazing that these inept lawyers are literally building a case in favor of private relay and against themselves.
Each argument they made was either factually incorrect, completely speculative or actually actively working against the point they were trying to make. I also love the bit where they claim that Private Relay pushes users to other paid browsers so Apple can get commission (which paid browsers would that even be?). No company wants to push users to a competing product, that makes literally no sense.
They’re going to need much better lawyers if they’re going to have any chance of winning. Which they won’t. Because they’re just straight up wrong and with the current privacy-focused climate no judge is going to agree that an ISP has a right to analyzing customer traffic.
Disregarding all of that they have no case to build on at all because Private Relay is off by default. Every consumer that uses it does it by choosing to opt in. In essence that makes it no difference than their consumers using a VPN.
Great! ISPs have no business analyzing web traffic data and use that data to develop services. They also have no business sharing it with third parties.
Amazing that these inept lawyers are literally building a case in favor of private relay and against themselves.
Each argument they made was either factually incorrect, completely speculative or actually actively working against the point they were trying to make. I also love the bit where they claim that Private Relay pushes users to other paid browsers so Apple can get commission (which paid browsers would that even be?). No company wants to push users to a competing product, that makes literally no sense.
They’re going to need much better lawyers if they’re going to have any chance of winning. Which they won’t. Because they’re just straight up wrong and with the current privacy-focused climate no judge is going to agree that an ISP has a right to analyzing customer traffic.
Disregarding all of that they have no case to build on at all because Private Relay is off by default. Every consumer that uses it does it by choosing to opt in. In essence that makes it no difference than their consumers using a VPN.
you should go to the nearest ER, unless you're not literally sick to death. Maybe you're just "sick to death".
None of them are, in the U.K. only the big 4 provide the networks and infrastructure. So all MVNO's use their networks as far as I know.
I knew it was going to be in there if I read long enough, oh yes, here it is,”child exploitation”.
I don’t even know any iOS browsers that aren’t free + non-sub. How does apple earn a commission off of that?
Not a single other concern wouldn’t apply to any vpn or proxy service, the only difference here is one that is easier to use and readily available.
The single feature that Apple could use to gain immediate traction would be to offer themselves as a virtual ISP with automatic in-country roaming across all four providers. (And similarly in other countries, regardless the number of physical networks.)
This would help with resilience as well as coverage.
BT appear now to be offering the obvious - an ISP contract with automatic failover from fibre to EE mobile.
Virgin should have done this years ago - automatically using their cable or BT's fibre as needed.
Obviously, there is a cost, but business broadband would very likely have paid a reasonable premium.
My zen contract fails over to Giffgaff. You can just buy a router that does this.
I run a business that operates WiFi hotspots in the UK. Private Relay has had no negative effect on our operations, and hasn't caused any form of bad customer experience. Nor should it, when you consider how it works. This is utter nonsense from the UK major operators. They're just whining about the lack of ability to track their customer's activity, data which they presumably monetise.
Keep it up Apple. The louder they complain, the more good you're doing.
Privacy for all.
Keep it up Apple. The louder they complain, the more good you're doing.
Privacy for all.
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But you do have something to hide. If you're anything like an average person you will have curtains in your house.
I wish that with iOS 16, private relay can also apply to apps, not just safari browser traffic. I would love to see Mark Zuckerberg’s meltdown if that does ever become reality.
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A group of UK network operators have formally urged the UK's Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) to regulate iCloud Private Relay, claiming that Apple's privacy service is anti-competitive, potentially bad for users, and a threat to national security.
![iCloud-General-Feature.jpg]()
In its response to the CMA's Interim Report on mobile ecosystems, Mobile UK, a trade association of British mobile network operators, including EE, Virgin Media O2, Three and Vodafone, has raised concerns that iCloud Private Relay can have a negative impact on user experience, internet safety, and competition.
iCloud Private Relay was new service introduced with iOS 15 that ensures all traffic leaving an iPhone, iPad, or Mac is encrypted using two separate internet relays, so that companies cannot use personal information like IP address, location, and browsing activity to create a detailed profile about users.
Following a formal complaint about Private Relay from Microsoft, Mobile UK claims that the privacy service can have undesired side-effects for users: "Private Relay affects Apple users in many ways, beyond simply what level of privacy a user wants." For example, "Apple users have suffered a worse browsing experience when using Private Relay." This is alleged to have the potential to push users to "migrate" away from "the Safari browser to apps downloaded from the App Store where Apple can earn a commission."
Private Relay prevents network providers from seeing the network traffic from Safari and unencrypted applications. In preventing network operators from seeing this traffic, Mobile UK says that Private Relay prevents service providers from understanding "demand patterns across mobile networks," inhibiting their ability to effectively diagnose customer issues.
Moreover, Private Relay is alleged to compromise "content filtering, malware, anti-scamming and phishing protection provided by network providers." Mobile UK also claims that Private Relay is a threat to national security, since it "impairs the insights available under the Government's investigatory powers, with implication for law enforcement" with regards to "terrorism, serious organized crime, child sexual abuse, and exploitation."
Private Relay purportedly allows Apple "to leverage its considerable market power into many areas of the market and thus being able to further entrench its position." Mobile UK says that due to Private Relay, "providers will be unable to use the traffic data to develop their own competing mobile browsers in the future," as well as other services that directly compete with Apple:
Mobile UK asserts that the ability of UK Internet Service Providers (ISPs) "to differentiate and compete in the market on fair terms" is actively undermined by Private Relay since Apple is effectively becoming an ISP itself:
Mobile UK is concerned that "Apple could thus leverage its position in the device and operating system to grow its iCloud+ user based to develop its position as an ISP."
Moreover, the trade association said that Private Relay directs users to more Apple services, "accessing the internet in a manner curated by Apple." Private Relay enables Apple "to favor its own proprietary applications and service, at the expense of other providers."
Mobile UK also said that Private Relay "affects competition in mobile browsers," highlighting that "rival browsers cannot differentiate themselves easily" as a result of Apple's WebKit browser engine restriction. The organization complains that users cannot "switch to an alternative browser" to skirt Private Relay since "the ability of rival browser to differentiate themselves from Safari will still be limited by the terms of Apple's browser engine."
In conclusion, the trade association says that Private Relay must be regulated beyond its superficial existence as a privacy service:
Mobile UK urged the CMA to implement "a remedy that limits the use of Private Relay," or "at the very least" prevent "Apple from making Private Relay a default-on service." The complaint noted that "Private relay is currently default-off but it is already being used by a significant portion of Apple customers in the UK, despite being in beta mode."
For more information, see Mobile UK's full submission to the CMA. iCloud Private Relay has come under similar skepticism in the European Union, where major mobile operators sought the banning of Private Relay for infringing upon EU "digital sovereignty."
Earlier this week, Apple aggressively defended its ecosystem in its detailed response to the CMA. It said that the regulator had set the benefits of Apple's ecosystem aside "without reasoned basis, either ignoring them entirely or dismissing them on the basis of nothing more than speculation." Apple alleged that the CMA's Interim Report was based on "unsubstantiated allegations and hypothetical concerns raised primarily by self-serving complaints" from a handful of multi-billion dollar companies, "all seeking to make deep changes to the iPhone for their own commercial gain, without independent verification."
Article Link: UK Network Operators Target iCloud Private Relay in Complaint to Regulator
This is such a joke! I can't keep Private Relay running for more than a day before it announces it's not running anymore and sits in a corner looking at the floor. I even opened a case with Apple, and they really had no clues except to 'contact us again if you continue to have issues'.
I continue to have issue...
Except, on vacation. Weird, right. Private Relay worked, apparently flawlessly the whole week. I was stunned... I had to go to a foreign country to get it to work. So weird... Is it local US cell carriers that are killing it? Is it the brand of wifi equipment they were using? Is it their internet provider? It's a mystery. So for the UK to get all pissy over PR, seems wishful thinking from my standpoint, unless it actually works there, and while I see the point of encryption potentially being a security problem, I can also see that a citizen SHOULD have privacy from their government. Only a fool trusts their government, was a saying when I was a kid. The Vietnam War (tm) was still going on then. COINTELPRO was still a recent event. The CIA was caught surveilling American citizens. You can NOT trust any government with the keys to your private secrets, your intimate life details. Too much can be made out of too little. Powerful people are too likely to be blackmailed by their past. *shrug*
If anyone should be in favor of hard encryption, it's Boris Johnson. He seems to have a lot to hide.
It's not a 'boomer catch phrase'. It works on far too many people. But we live in fearful times. Fear is all people have to advance their agendas, in spite of being proven wrong, some people cling to the fear, and will seriously do anything to 'feel safer'. Including give up their privacy.
It sounds fantastic and should required of all ISPs, not banned or limited.
However, why “beta”? And, why does Apple charge for it, if it's so committed to our privacy? Surely, they could absorb the cost and burnish their brand and commitment to privacy even more by making it freely available.
Oh, and does this only work with Safari as Apple implies? Or, with any Internet activity, e.g.., say from Firefox?
Besides, there is still that “small” matter of Apple's scanning our devices and phoning home!
However, why “beta”? And, why does Apple charge for it, if it's so committed to our privacy? Surely, they could absorb the cost and burnish their brand and commitment to privacy even more by making it freely available.
Oh, and does this only work with Safari as Apple implies? Or, with any Internet activity, e.g.., say from Firefox?
Besides, there is still that “small” matter of Apple's scanning our devices and phoning home!
Something wrong with your router and/or ISP at home then.
NB, Private Relay will drop if I turn my router off and on again, and I'll get a notification in macOS. Disconnecting from the WiFi and reconnecting fixes it.
Make sure that your ISP doesn't have its own privacy features enabled that block access to 'dodgy' websites. If your ISP can analyse your network content, your connection is not private and, thus, Private Relay cannot work. This was a default setting with my BT account, which I had to turn off to get Private Relay working reliably.
But if it is you doing it, you have to buy a SIM. I think the built-in approach means you do not have that extra cost.
(Obviously, ISPs that offer this are likely inherently more expensive than the bargain-basement offerings.)