Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

genovelle

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,102
2,677
I’m not sure how private relay is giving Apple a massive competitive advantage.

Proper VPNs are way more fully featured.

It seems that the real issue, is that the networks are going to lose big datasets re how many people from what region and (presumed) demographics access what services - which they can then sell onto third parties (and use themselves to develop services).

If DuckDuckGo had a bigger market share, I’m sure the same people would be arguing against that too for similar reasons.

Ban private relay and you’ll just push more and more people to use VPNs - and as that happens, their subscription cost will gradually go down thus attracting even more people.

Finally: I do think private relay should be encrypting all WebKit traffic though ie from competing browsers etc.
I believe that option is coming down the road. Currently it’s a differential feature that I’m sure Google and others would never implement because it would interfere with their ability to track customers. I promise you your connection is traveling across Google’s network when using chrome on iOS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bluecoast

bsolar

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2011
1,534
1,735
Yeah, but it isn't any individual perpetrating the theft. It's the company that profits. No one is taking the money from one employee's check and putting it in their own. The company just has policies that make it so the employee works overtime for no pay, or for straight time instead of overtime.

It depends. As example, here overtime is strictly regulated for most employee positions and HR is responsible to ensure it's not abused. Of course the company as individual entity can be sanctioned, but also individual employees especially at executive level can be held accountable if the regulations are not followed, either due to malice or negligence.

The situation you describe is not realistic here for that reason, but I can understand it can be in different contextes: that's not an issue of the company construct itself, it's an issue of laws and regulations either being not strict enough or not being enforced strongly enough.

There is very little chance they are going to find a culprit that instituted the policies and even if they do, very unlikely they would be charged with a crime. Maybe someone might be demoted or fired, never convicted. The company will say they are sorry and we have dealt with the problem, but will not be punished other than a fine that is essentially a slap on the wrist.

Demotion or firing are private matters between the company and the employees: a civil or criminal sanction is a whole different matter and again it depends on how strict the laws and regulations are and how seriously they are enforced, not an issue of the company construct in general.
 

LV426

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2013
1,836
2,266
I have not gone further to find out whether they will take any notice, etc., but the case is listed here:

https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/mobile-ecosystems-market-study
Interesting read. Most of the responses from individual web app developers moan that Apple WebKit makes like more difficult and/or expensive for them.

The weighty and considered response from the Developers Alliance, however, takes a more balanced view arguing, amongst many other things, that consumers prefer a closed ecosystem.
 

Reggaenald

Suspended
Sep 26, 2021
864
798
You know an argument is bad faith when Microsoft, a company that was once-charged with monopolistic practices, argues that Apple, its competitor, is providing ”bad service and experience” therefore should be punished by regulators and not its customers. Shouldn’t the market drive this? If Apple customers are unhappy with Private Relay, which is easily turned on/off, then they’ll vote with their wallet.
Microsoft oh Microsoft. They are mad because, like before sometimes, they didn’t get on the right train at the right time.
The only real place Microsoft has in this world is being the maker of Windows, the de facto default computer OS, and their Office apps,
they tried MP3 players, smartphones and all that stuff, IE or Edge didn’t make it and almost all „analysis“ of the traffic of their customers/users devices ran through Google.
They tried to somewhat gain traction with Bing, which is and always was a laughable attempt, and now this: dozens of VPN providers and stuff like Private Relay mess that up even more. They sure are a silly bunch. Had Gates not betrayed Jobs, Microsoft wouldn’t be anymore, and there is reason why.
Anyway.
 

Treq

macrumors 6502a
Apr 23, 2009
970
1,523
Santa Monica, CA
It depends. As example, here overtime is strictly regulated for most employee positions and HR is responsible to ensure it's not abused. Of course the company as individual entity can be sanctioned, but also individual employees especially at executive level can be held accountable if the regulations are not followed, either due to malice or negligence.

The situation you describe is not realistic here for that reason, but I can understand it can be in different contextes: that's not an issue of the company construct itself, it's an issue of laws and regulations either being not strict enough or not being enforced strongly enough.



Demotion or firing are private matters between the company and the employees: a civil or criminal sanction is a whole different matter and again it depends on how strict the laws and regulations are and how seriously they are enforced, not an issue of the company construct in general.
Well it is a problem here in the US, very common, and it is due in large part to the way companies are constructed with many layers to insulate those truly responsible and benefit from the practice. I personally had to fight Warner Bros to get paid overtime pay. It took months and I had to get my union involved. If I didn’t belong to a union I would probably never have been paid the thousands of dollars I was owed. Not to mention how often they get away with it. For every person who catches them there is probably several who don’t. And no one was punished in any way, nor was there a fine.
 

polyphenol

macrumors 68000
Sep 9, 2020
1,898
2,251
Wales
Interesting read. Most of the responses from individual web app developers moan that Apple WebKit makes like more difficult and/or expensive for them.

The weighty and considered response from the Developers Alliance, however, takes a more balanced view arguing, amongst many other things, that consumers prefer a closed ecosystem.
I certainly found Android a pain. The possibility of an app working/not working being sometimes difficult to assess, especially as your device gets older.

I think that if someone offers an app at £1 on Android, I actually wouldn't mind having to pay, say, £1.30 for it on IOS if that covers the excess cost to developers.
 

mjs916

macrumors 6502a
Apr 1, 2018
736
886
Sacramento, CA
It is a mesh network, yet the same SSID is shared across them. It's a Cisco system, and apparently the system was a bundle, and should have had their 'mesh node' boxes in it. Cisco claims that the more advanced boxes *WILL* mesh, but from what I'm seeing, it might be having issues. I get solid service across the house, which I never got before (Velop, just say no) and after my iPhone drops its connection, my iPad will be happy as a clam surfing right along. It makes me think that it might be an iPhone problem.

*shrug*

YMMV. :confused:
I remember what I did but don’t know how it resolved the problem.

I changed my SSID while enabling the Guest network on my Eero system, then reconnected most devices. I ran into two issues: iPhone would not stay connected when Private Wi-Fi Address was active, and an old Canon printer couldn’t connect with WPA3 and 5GHZ enabled. The eero app offered to temporarily pause 5GHZ during setup of the printer & I manually disabled WPA3. After that was complete I had the iPhone forget the network, then reenabled 5GHZ and WPA3, connected the iPhone to the new SSID & turned on Private Wi-Fi Address. Printer connected, iPhone no longer dropped.

I wish I could pinpoint exactly what did it. Here’s hoping that the play-by-play might hold something that helps your situation?.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PinkyMacGodess

bsolar

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2011
1,534
1,735
Well it is a problem here in the US, very common, and it is due in large part to the way companies are constructed with many layers to insulate those truly responsible and benefit from the practice.

I'm aware in the US there is a very different situation regarding overtime. I'm still unsure the issue is the form of incorporation since basically the same forms of incorporation are used in other countries where the overtime issue is much less pronounced.
 

SDJim

macrumors 6502a
Aug 4, 2017
672
2,344
San Diego, CA
This may be the stupidest one yet.

"BuT mUh BrOwSiNg ExPeRiEnCe!"
-NO CONSUMER EVER

Seriously, we are opting for the specifically to gain the privacy benefits at the potential loss of internet "magic", so please just speak for yourself and kindly take your concerns on my behalf and shove it up your charging port.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mjs916

Treq

macrumors 6502a
Apr 23, 2009
970
1,523
Santa Monica, CA
I'm aware in the US there is a very different situation regarding overtime. I'm still unsure the issue is the form of incorporation since basically the same forms of incorporation are used in other countries where the overtime issue is much less pronounced.
Sure, but the way the laws are written here, those companies have the same rights as individuals which make it easier for them to influence the laws to their advantage and shield themselves from almost any accountability. They use that political power to weaken unions, and support politicians who will write laws that favor their bottom line. This is why democracy is so fragile right now. They have use that power to influence the electorate via right-wing media outlets. It’s sad really.
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,226
Midwest America.
Sure, but the way the laws are written here, those companies have the same rights as individuals which make it easier for them to influence the laws to their advantage and shield themselves from almost any accountability. They use that political power to weaken unions, and support politicians who will write laws that favor their bottom line. This is why democracy is so fragile right now. They have use that power to influence the electorate via right-wing media outlets. It’s sad really.

Tragic...
 

Roadster Lewis

macrumors 6502
Apr 27, 2021
290
356
Coventry, UK
My zen contract fails over to Giffgaff. You can just buy a router that does this.
Interesting, I will need to check that out.
Does anybody know of a way that consumers can file a response to this request from Mobile UK, because it is all too easy to disprove their claims and Mobile UK does not speak for me as a consumer. They're talking utter bollocks.
It is almost like there needs to be a coordinated group of Apple users that can weigh in with a "we like our devices pretty much how they are, don't mess with them", because it seems like consumers are being ignored.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: mjs916 and ric22

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,425
2,260
Scandinavia
Interesting, I will need to check that out.

It is almost like there needs to be a coordinated group of Apple users that can weigh in with a "we like our devices pretty much how they are, don't mess with them", because it seems like consumers are being ignored.
We need a polling to show if apple user wants it or not.
 

Pezimak

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2021
2,924
3,181
Does this work in anyway like a VPN? I’ve turned it on now but am curious to how it works?
 

LV426

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2013
1,836
2,266
Does this work in anyway like a VPN? I’ve turned it on now but am curious to how it works?
It‘s similar, but not identical to a VPN. For practical purposes when using Safari, you can regard it as working like a VPN. Your requests are encrypted and handled by a combination of Apple and Cloudflare. But you can’t pretend that your requests originate in a different country (e.g. to thwart BBC iPlayer), and it only works for Safari.
 

Pezimak

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2021
2,924
3,181
It‘s similar, but not identical to a VPN. For practical purposes when using Safari, you can regard it as working like a VPN. Your requests are encrypted and handled by a combination of Apple and Cloudflare. But you can’t pretend that your requests originate in a different country (e.g. to thwart BBC iPlayer), and it only works for Safari.

Thanks. Sounds good to me, I was just reading about the upcoming changes the government here in the U.K. are making to the 'digital bill' and it's too restrictive and intrusive for my liking. Hope this Apple feature can hide my data from them and everyone else trying to make money from it.
 

LV426

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2013
1,836
2,266
Thanks. Sounds good to me, I was just reading about the upcoming changes the government here in the U.K. are making to the 'digital bill' and it's too restrictive and intrusive for my liking. Hope this Apple feature can hide my data from them and everyone else trying to make money from it.
The new bill is a bit of a worry. Even with Private Relay enabled, you may see the nanny state swinging into action if you happen to browse an “adult” site (you will still be identified by the site owner as a UK user). On the other hand, such sites can determine that you are using Private Relay and may choose to ignore the law when that is the case, because the only person who knows about it is you!

Check with your ISP settings that they don’t have child-safe settings enabled (e.g. BT), as that will interfere with Private Relay. If you have such a setting enabled, you are granting the ISP permission to snoop on your traffic, which is obviously incompatible with Private Relay (as it shields your data from the ISP).
 

Pezimak

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2021
2,924
3,181
The new bill is a bit of a worry. Even with Private Relay enabled, you may see the nanny state swinging into action if you happen to browse an “adult” site (you will still be identified by the site owner as a UK user). On the other hand, such sites can determine that you are using Private Relay and may choose to ignore the law when that is the case, because the only person who knows about it is you!

Check with your ISP settings that they don’t have child-safe settings enabled (e.g. BT), as that will interfere with Private Relay. If you have such a setting enabled, you are granting the ISP permission to snoop on your traffic, which is obviously incompatible with Private Relay (as it shields your data from the ISP).

Haha I’m not bothered about any ‘adult’ websites, more I don’t want the government snooping on me, they have enough information as it is and still manage to lose it. I’m with a small ISP which is more business orientated so no child safety settings to worry about.
My main concern is this government seem to favour a lot of control over you, and that breaches right to freedoms to me, you can’t even express your opinion incase someone thinks it’s a hate crime and you get arrested, the Police have to act on hate crime reports like a Twitter or forum post. It’s ludicrous. In Scotland they have even made it law that if you say something in your own home, and it’s deemed a hate crime and you are reported for it the Police can arrest you for it and charge you. Not even what you say in your own home is safe.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: mjs916 and I7guy

ric22

macrumors 68000
Mar 8, 2022
1,793
1,753
Fast forward a year and I'm now seeing this, on Sky fibre in the UK:
IMG_2301.jpeg
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.