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Unionized Maryland Apple Store Workers Request 10% Raise and Option to Accept Customer Tips
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So it’s the UAW’s fault for taking a gasoline engine and trying to turn it into a diesel?
Or the famous V8-6-4?
It was the UAW's fault for the adage, "Never buy an American car made on Monday or Friday because of the decreased quality. Or for protecting "workers who would leave a tool or metal bits inside a door just for grins".
Or the Tiremakers Union at BF Goodrich for protecting a Union worker who was always drunk at work. I have direct and personal knowledge of this one. I even know his name.
Or the Tiremakers Union at BF Goodrich for protecting a Union worker who was always drunk at work. I have direct and personal knowledge of this one. I even know his name.
Stems from the way unions and members carry themselves.
- If someone works in a union labor company and they don't join the union, they are bullied and treated like crap. They don't help them. That's a problem. If unions were so great, why go through that? It should be apparent "working as a member of the union is better" but it's not.
- Businesses with labor unions have double the management expense. Management of the company and management of labor. So companies have to make more to make a profit. A profit that CAN be used to make things better for workers.
- It's well known that union labor is protected to the point of mediocrity. Employees can choose to suck at their jobs and remain employed. They just get moved around from one company manager to another. How can you do quality work that way?
- Last comment may cause some to consider trades and how the "training" programs AKA apprenticeships provide better quality work. I've even heard a company owner tout that thought. There may be something to it. But I've had a need for industrial like electrical work. Had two different facilities. One with union labor, one without. The quality of work and time it took to complete projects was far superior with the non-union shop. Ten years later I'm still paying the price of the crap work the union shop did.
- BTW - the work the union company's own employees was pretty good. The local they used supplement sucked bad. Not sure if that had something to do with it.
- Companies with unions have a difficult time to change with the market place. Unions don't want change. They want things to stay the same. For instance - if there is a better, more efficient way of doing something but it takes less employees, unions will fight it tooth and nail.
I know people who work for UPS. They were paid $80/week while on strike. How the heck can a family survive on THAT? Cross the line to feed your family and you'll get beaten, shunned, whatever tactic organizers want to push on you. With that said, the demands this time weren't that bad in my book pay-wise.
My point of view is unions aren't needed any longer. More true today than a few years ago, but especially since OSHA and other government programs developed. Social media easily sheds the light on issues at businesses. And labor is hard to come by these days after COVID. If something isn't great where you are, go to another company. OR - actually talk with management. What a concept. If you do it with grace, professionally, have your facts down, chances are they will listen and work to improve things.
You give management too much credit in some industries. Aviation is one where changing companies is not realistic given how aviation works( seniority, etc). You make a decision the company disagrees with, you want your union their to help you out. Countless times have had management come after pilots for delaying the flight due to thunderstorms. Wanted to send them back to retraining, etc all because it cost them money and they thought it was safe to fly on time( despite being safely behind their desk).
Of course there is this famous example where unions did take concessions due to the financial situation of the airlines post-9/11, and execs decided to pay themselves a nice bonus....
American Air Pulls Back Bonus Plans (Published 2003)
American Airlines drops plans to pay large bonuses to seven top executives if they stayed with company until January 2005; says it will keep money in much-criticized trust fund set up to protect pensions of 45 executives in case it files bankruptcy protection; flight attendants' union says it...
You think UPS would have agreed to install AC in their vehicles without a union? An individual has no power to get that done. The union has the power for that.....
Actually look into the issues the airline pilots are wanting and despite the media throwing out, " Airline offer pilots 40% pay raises" so if the pilots reject TA, guess what your perception is of it? Oh those pilots are greedy. No we are happy with the money, but we want work rule and QOL improvements vs the constant erosion of it over the past 20 years. So if a TA gets shot down, it is likely because management tossed money, but nothing else.
Does every job need a union? No. Are unions no longer needed? Absolutely they are in certain industries.
Focus on just the negative aspects, of course you will think bad on unions. But just quitting and getting another job isn't as easy as you make it out to be especially in aviation where you stand to lose A LOT by going from American to United for example.
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Since you put it THAT way, okay then. You must have experience and if you are a pilot, I'm somewhat jealous. Still hope to get my private pilots license at some point.
Thanks for the viewpoint on the airlines. Understand a little of how seniority works in the airlines but since I don't live it, probably can't say much about it. Don't some pilots leave one airline to another so they could get a left seat position. Perhaps they don't get the better routes when they do that? Understand there are also deals pilots make to fly for airlines who pay for their training for a number of years. So there's that.
The FAA and NTSB do influence what airlines can do "to" pilots and what airlines must do with their equipment to make it safe to fly. Wish in some cases they made more mandates with due dates on some of that though. I'm a viewer of the show Air Disasters and though it only captures some of what happens out there, they report on some positive changes that came from accident investigations. Unfortunately, some of those regulations shouldn't have had to be made as they should have been common sense.
You mentioned management going after pilots for delaying flights due to thunderstorms. Not sure what the means. But if I'm a manager responsible for ensuring flights depart and arrive on time and understand what that reputation means to ticket / cargo sales, I'd probably give the pilots a hard time about delaying the flights too. I'd probably always ask "are you sure". But I'd also have to acquiesce and respect the pilot's position as they are the ones flying the plane. They are the ones responsible for everyone and everything on that plane. I may not be happy, but you can't fight mother nature. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it and what you mean is management docs pilot pay or write a bad review, or similar. Hope that's not the case.
On UPS and AC in their delivery trucks - I'm on the fence about that one. Grew up being told going in and out of a cold and hot environment can make someone sick. First thoughts anyway. Once they get them, I'll ask the drivers I know.
To clarify, I'm not saying its easy to get another job. Especially if you are a long time employee. But it is an option. It is easier in some industries than others. And it could mean having to move for some. But life isn't supposed to be easy all the time. If you don't have the downs, you won't appreciate the ups. With remote work options as prevalent as they are now, it's a lot easier for a lot more people than it ever has been though.
There is a career progression pilots take. Usually start out being a CFI, Part 135 operation( such as Cape Air), and other flying gigs to get to the hours required to get an Airline Transport Pilot( ATP) certificate. Then they will go to a regional airline such as Skywest, Republic, etc. Get more experience and then hopefully get hired at United, American, Delta, JetBlue, Southwest, etc. The United's, American's, Delta's, etc are considered the end goal. They are the career destinations to build your nest sort of speak. The regionals have the churn. Once at the career gigs, you tend to stay.
Today's environment is definitely a crazy one. One created by management 20-30 years ago. The pipeline of pilots was destroyed because management made the career unattractive for the newer generations. About when I started my training, getting hired at a regional was a challenge. No bonuses, you had to pay for the training at the airline, etc. You needed to go $50K-$100K into debt to get your ratings all to be paid $16,000-$20,000 a year starting out. Once you got the hours to upgrade to captain and seniority( often 3-4 years) then you finally started to make livable wages( ~$40K-$50K). You jumped through hoops to get noticed by UAL, AA, and Delta and hope to get an interview let alone the job. Back then also didn't have Part 117 and people especially at the regionals were doing 5-7 legs a day up and down in the weather often doing long days.
Add to the fact the 2000's saw 9/11, mergers, bankruptcies, furloughs, Age 65, etc that brought movement to a screeching halt( hence why it is called the lost decade), the new generation has gone, " F That" as the ROI was very little for the investment needed.
Things didn't start to turn around where pilots started to gain momentum until around 2016 then COVID supercharged it in 2021. Pay and working conditions started to improve drastically at the regionals.
Sure regulations do help. But management if given their way will always try to fly every pilot to that extreme limit.
There is an exception in the duty limit regulations that allow an extension by 30 minutes-2 hours if lets say on the last leg the plane breaks and needs maintenance. IF both pilots still feel fine, they can take that extension after the plane is fixed. 16 hours though is the absolute max of a duty day. Can't extend past that. So lets say if report time is 5 am and doing 3 legs today, the duty limit is 12 hours I believe. Last leg, plane broke, crew approaching duty limits, they can choose to extend up to 14 hours to get the flight out if they are not fatigued/tired.
Some airlines will have carrot or the stick approach to get pilots to take those extensions. Some will require you to fill out paperwork explaining why you refused the extension( pilots hate paperwork). Other airlines will pay you if you take it( nothing promotes safety like tossing money at pilots to tempt them to push the limits).
Captain didn't depart because a line of thunderstorms cut off the flight route between the departure and arrival airport and when looking at the radar on the ground, there wasn't any way to deviate around it. Management disagreed with the assessment and tried to get him to go. Captain refused and management started a disciplinary hearing.
An option sure. But pain will come with it when it comes to aviation. There is no, " If you're not happy with your pay, go somewhere else that pays you better".
If you been with United, Delta, American, SWA, etc for lets say 10 years. You're probably a captain making well over $250K a year, holding a decent schedule able to be with your kids and family, etc. As I said above, once at those airlines you're pretty much set. Let's say the airline is United. Back when hired 10 years ago, United was an awesome gig. Management treated you well, ran the airline well, etc. In those 10 years, management changed. They became abusive to labor and was running the airline like crap. Delta comes along and gives their pilots an awesome new contract because their management appreciates labor and runs the airline well making money left and right. Sure that United captain can go, " Screw this, I want to go to Delta!". But that entails going back to the bottom. Back to being a first officer, starting out at $90,000 a year, on reserve, and missing time with their family and kids. Going to take another 3-5 years just to get back to captain again, and another 10 years to get back the schedule they were able to hold. It's extremely painful to make such a move. It's practically prohibitive to do so.
Scenario above is realistic. Today Delta is the darling child of the airlines. Profitable, management treats labor right, etc. But just 13 years ago, Delta was the butt of the jokes. The darlings and the "joke" places can and will change over time. But just how our industry is, leaving your current gig once at a career place to chase the darlings is not practical.
You replied before I made the edit, but a famous event that soured management-labor relations is when American got the unions to take concessions to help prevent a bankruptcy in 2003 after 9/11 to then turn around and hand themselves bonuses.
Unions have their negatives. But everything in life does. Bad employees do get protected. But if they don't, the union is failing to represent everyone equally. Have to defend the bad ones to also protect the good ones. In aviation, it isn't impossible to get fired. Management just needs to follow the process laid out in the contract. The bad ones keep their job because management didn't follow the process. Bad ones usually can be counted on to screw up again and management gets a second chance to actually follow the process and then they get fired.
Crossing a picket line during a strike is a HUGE NO NO. Reasons why unions are effective is due to collective whole of the labor force. If people cross the picket line and management is able to keep the place going, that person just destroyed the power and ability to get management to talk in good faith. It's why scabs are looked down upon. I will never condone violence against them of course and there is a certain limit on how far you can let your view known on what you think of their actions.
Are Apple employees even people. Every time I've been to one of there stores it's like they are reading from a script and there is this fake level of friendliness. When you challenge them with a off script question (not very hard) they have to get help! Lol
I used to wash UPS package cars (not particularly relevant here, but non-union outside contractor), inside and out, and park them for the night. The cargo areas are unbearable during the day (and even evenings) with an air temperature above like 85–90° with any amount of sunlight and I can personally attest that I’d have gladly accepted some modest A/C beyond the existing fans even for my relatively short and cool “days” on the job.
I say “modest” because I’m skeptical they’ll be able to keep the cabs all that comfortable, let alone cold, just due to how often the driver is entering and exiting. But keeping them humane is a great start. If you or the drivers you know live in a climate that gets pretty hot, I’m guessing they feel similarly.
And of course, if this hot/cold issue you mention presents itself, I figure the driver would be able to adjust the A/C accordingly to account for it. Regardless, I’d take that kind of illness over proper heat-related illness any day of the week and twice on Fridays.
The reason this happens is because often nonmembers wind up with the same pay/benefits/safety conditions union members had to bargain for or maybe even strike for, without paying dues or otherwise lifting a finger. They’re basically freeloading. And regarding “they don’t help them” — what, do you want nonmembers to freeload even more by having unions extend their full effort and protection to nonmembers?
That’s been businesses’ view on organized labor about as long as it’s existed. Great, you got your contract, no more need for the union, right? (You do see the issue with that thinking…correct?)
Government regulation is often woefully insufficient either in the protections offered or in the enforcement thereof. Never mind that many regulations were informed by things that labor had to fight for.
Regarding social media, that’s simply not the appropriate way to handle many workplace issues and of course you’re at risk of direct retaliation up to and including losing your job, compared to the union collectively organizing on your behalf. There’s a line between things one might want to see improved and things that deserve public shaming.
Always thought airlines wanted military pilots since they had the training and flight hours. Civilian's were left to what you described above - 20-30 years ago. Seem to recall what you described. It was around the time I began looking in to the career and figured it wasn't affordable for the first few years.
When I checked this morning on the post, saw there was a link to the American article wondering if I missed it initially LOL.
That piece about a disciplinary hearing is scary. It doesn't fit my idea of what management is there for. I subscribe to "management is there for the employee" to help ensure they have the tools necessary to get the job done. To influence change when necessary. Managers work for employees and work with their peers and those about their level. But you are only as good as the people who work "for" you. You spend most of your work day with those at the job. Need to make the best of it and enjoy the time. Unfortunately, I may not be in the majority. And in some areas - industries - it can be the opposite.
Really appreciate your taking the time to write all this out. You've given a great inside look from the perspective of the airline industry. Too bad it's not better. It should be.
What's odd to me is if you make captain at one of the majors, you should be able to get on as captain at another. But then not everyone flies the same equipment in the same configurations. OR - was that something "management" across the airlines colluded on to keep one from stealing talent from another? Not sure if you have insight to that or willing to take the time to elaborate. I am curious about it.
But do they though? Without lifting a finger? What did the "workers" do other than complain? I once worked a construction job during a summer between semesters where labor was organized. Got my first check and saw the "union fees" or dues, whatever they were called. I wasn't a member but had to pay? Was told it was for the "union" negotiating my wage, etc. I didn't have healthcare (that was negotiated LOL) Quite frankly, I recall being told I would make $X an hour which was great. But in the end, the union dues brought it down to what I could have made doing something less labor intensive.
If there is a dispute between employee and management, will a "union rep" go to their defense? I'm not aware of that ever happening. You're on your own if you aren't in a union.
What I'd want is for employees to treat each other with respect. Those who come in and don't want to be a member of a union SHOULD want to become a member by seeing how great membership is. Not being forced to do it. That's wrong. Doesn't surprise me that concept won't ever land in your mind.
Disagree. Unions came about due to the hours and conditions workers were being "forced" to work in before unions became a thing. Then OSHA and other government programs developed to protect much of that including working over 40 hours getting overtime, rules around breaks during work shifts, etc. Age limits. There are safety rules that come in to play. Some could have come from union influence but they didn't have to. Politicians can be bought, sure. But they can be influenced through other means as well. There's power in numbers. You don't need a formal union to get it done.
Granted, there may be some industries where this may not hold true, many places people have a choice of where they choose to work. If a company isn't treating workers well, they should leave. When enough leave, management MAY change and see the light. If not, the business will suffer.
This brings to mind the crybaby being asked to work "an 8 hour shift" at a Starbucks one weekend. Not only did he deserve to be shamed, I would have had a great talk with that kid. He'd be a great union member of a retail store LOL.
Social media can be used to handle many workplace issues when done correctly. You'd never give specifics like "I work the 8-2 shift Tuesday through Sunday at X company". You use generics. And anyone can post anonymously. In fact there are sites out there like Glassdoor where people can rate what its like to work for a certain company including pay practices. So yes, you can.
I saw earlier where someone pointed out some places where workers were unionized like Kroger. Honestly, yes, I do avoid them whenever possible. Just like I refuse to go to Hobby Lobby due to the founders religious influence on the company. Seriously, why on earth does a bagger, cashier, or stocker need union representation? That's beyond laughable. Nothing anyone can say would change my opinion on that. And yes, one of my first jobs was a bagger in a non-union store.
I don't think we are going to agree here Jon. Just replied to counter your arguments since I haven't been on here for a while.
Thanks for that perspective. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. UPS has been around for a LONG time - decades. Curious about the "why now" part of the discussion. It does get hot where I am. Looking at the weather in the USA, it looks like it's hot everywhere! Perhaps our increasing temperatures are pushing the drivers over the edge?
And then - what about the warehouses and distribution centers? Loading semi-trucks and planes?
On this topic, perhaps we could agree. I'll always have in my mind if a union was necessary to see it happen. If the union wasn't there, and I was a driver, I'd ask my manager to come deliver with me one hot day. See if we couldn't influence it that way. I've done that myself with success and have had other ask me as a manager where I gained a perspective I didn't have. Both were wins.
Sounds like you work for an awesome company.
As I said, not every industry or job needs to be unionized.
The #1 way to avoid your labor force wanting to unionize is to treat them right and pay them appropriately. If you do that, management would not have to worry about a union. You see that in areas unions try to make inroads in( such as the UAW trying to get VW, Toyota, etc plants to unionize), but since they treat their employees right and the pay/benefits are good, the employees are happy thus they don't vote in the union.
The seniority system tends to keep us locked into a particular carrier. There are no lateral moves - regardless of experience or background - so choosing to work at a different airline means starting at the bottom of their seniority list. Usually when pilots jump from one to the other it's only after having a year or two of seniority built, or if a pilot has specific circumstances where he/she feels the loss of seniority is worth it (moving to city where a different airline has a base, etc).
While management does benefit from this arrangement, believe it or not the seniority system is essentially championed by the unions themselves. There's a lot of benefit from it as well.
To be fair - not everyone in my company subscribes to how I manage teams. Big company that has lots of different types of leaders. But we do employee surveys and most do try to listen to improve things. SO the culture is there to enable good leaders.
Treating employees well is important. So is managing expectations. Many of us want to change things but processes in other areas take time and it can be a multi-step process. Everyone seems to think the guy above them has it easy. Or they don't pull their weight. But I know the further up the chain, the more time is required and how you act matters. You have to watch what you say and how you say it to everyone. People get upset about what CEO's and other highly compensated individuals make. But many of them really do earn their pay. There literally isn't any time to relax or disconnect. If wherever you go on vacation doesn't have good cell phone coverage, no worries, we have sat phones. And you need to keep checking your email, call in - sometimes join meetings while you should be relaxing with your family to recharge. There needs to be a balance to make everything work.