Why the heck does America still use outdated measurement and date units?

[bunnspecial]

Most new American cars have metric nuts and bolts, usually with the exception of commonly accessed parts like the oil drain.

FWIW, my made-in-American Lincoln(Wixom, MI plant) has 19mm lug nuts and the oil drain plug is a metric size(although I don't recall off the top of my head).

In any case, when speaking of fasteners you have to consider not only the size of the bolt head but also the thread pitch and thread density. Metric standard fasteners tend to have higher TPI counts(or TPcm if you prefer ) than an SAE or British Fine thread of similar diameter. This makes adjustments more precise-which of course is ideal in some applications-but for most other purposes the net effect is requiring a lot more turns to turn the nut/bolt tight and also makes the threads weaker. On the other hand, the a given amount of torque on the fastener will result in higher clamping forces.

The really fun one is when you get inside MG engines. By and large, all the fasteners have metric threads with Whitworth/British Standard bolt heads. The notable exception is the sump drain plug, which uses British Standard Fine Straight Pipe threads(as do all the drain plugs). Fortunately, the only thing the average owner/shadetree mechanic will ever have to access are the drain plug, the distributor clamp, and the locknuts on the valve rocker adjusters, all of which just need to be "snugged" and don't require a huge amount of force.

I can't begin to tell you how frustrated I was when I was working on the fuel pump and found that someone had replaced a nut and bolt combo with a metric equivalent size. The most frustrating part was having to get out from under the car and get the metric sockets and wrenches, which I rarely use.

 

[OLDCODGER]

Personally, I don't understand why we ever left the Egyptian system. After all, everyone has thumbs and forearms, don't they?

 

[Renzatic]

Personally, I don't understand why we ever left the Egyptian system. After all, everyone has thumbs and forearms, don't they?

If they have thumbs and forearms, then it's logical to assume they also have hands and feet. It's a reasonable update.

 

[OLDCODGER]

If they have thumbs and forearms, then it's logical to assume they also have hands and feet. It's a reasonable update.

See, you had to bring complexity into it!

 

[Renzatic]

See, you had to bring complexity into it!

No! It brings nuance! Hands also have fingers, which can be used to further derive other units of measurement.

It's genius is what I say.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

However, one area I really do not 'get' the US usage - at all - is that of how to write a date. This is bonkers, as, quite simply, it defies logic. The usage of dd/mm/yyyy, to my mind, makes a lot more, and is how I have always written dates.

This one is perhaps the easiest to explain... In spoken American English, we nearly always refer to the month first, then the day, then the year, "Today is May eighth, twenty-sixteen." Nobody I know says, "Today is eight May (or the eighth of May), twenty-sixteen." It would be madness to change the notation method without also changing the spoken language.

Spoken date syntax is different in other nations and languages, and, quite logically, their method of date notation follows that spoken usage. So....

You want a major cause to promote? Try world-wide language standardization. That'll fix that date notation problem in an instant! I won't get into the pros and cons of which language the world should speak. Just consider the benefits of everyone speaking the same language; for mutual understanding, for easy dissemination of information, for the manufacture of goods... I'd imagine the U.S. will go metric long before such a thing happened.

Back in the '70s, the U.S. attempted metrification. It was widely unpopular in some circles, regardless of how logical it all seemed to me. I could blame the end of metrification on a particular president, but ultimately, it was all pandering to populist sentiment - every politician panders to someone. Since those days, anti-Federalism has become an ever-stronger force in the U.S., so it's become nearly impossible to try to implement any nation-wide effort, especially if the proponents' argument is based almost solely on logic. As Spock might observe, "Logic is not an American trait, Jim." America is a land where belief Trumps logic at every turn.

I think it's the equivalent of what goes on in the UK regarding the Euro and Pound. There's a whole lot of emotion, much of it tied into a nation's view of its place in the world, and all the fantasies and delusion that go with it.

In the big scheme of things, the world needs a single currency, a single language, a single system of weights and measures, a single government, a uniform system of taxation... And about the only way it's likely to happen is if Earth is conquered by extraterrestrials and nobody feels the need to rebel against those extraterrestrials.

 

[throAU]

Metric is fine and makes sense, no doubt. I just don't understand why people from other countries get upset over what system we use here. It doesn't affect them in any way, why be nasty about?
And it's funny because I moved to the US from Europe in 1998. I did K-12 education in the old country so of course I had no idea about the english system when I came over here. But I have come to really like it. It's cool working with decimal inch dimensions and tolerances

It does affect us day to day due to letter paper format being the default in printer drivers in a million different places, date formats being default to messed up all over the place, etc.

Because most big software companies are in the states.
[doublepost=1462778507][/doublepost]

I actually prefer Fahrenheit because of the smaller intervals. You can get more precise temperatures without resorting to decimals. The range of temperatures in this part of California can be about 25-105. That's an 80-degree range. In Celsius that's -3 to 40, a 40 degree difference. You get twice the amount of temperatures to use with Fahrenheit.

I think I'm going to quote Grampa Simpson on this: "The Metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 60 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!"

And another Simpsons reference to top it off:

"Not only are the trains running on time--they're running on metric time. Remember this moment, people, eighty past two on April 47th"

Q

Can you feel the difference between 65 and 66 F?


My bet is no.
[doublepost=1462778653][/doublepost]

Indeed, the 8th of May, 2016. Or did you mean May 8th, 2016? You can say dates in many ways...

Personally I prefer YYYY/MM/DD.

Like numbers, most significant/largest units first.
[doublepost=1462778776][/doublepost]

I'm aware of that. My comment was a (failed, obviously) attempt at a joke on the difference between a US and UK billion. The fact you used the non-UK definition of billion ticked me (and by the way the entire world's population is less than the number I typed!).

Aware of what you did and ignored it as most of the world has standardised on a thousand million to a billion.
[doublepost=1462778930][/doublepost]

Get. A. Life!

We should all do what aviation does, use knots and nautical miles, which make sense for the coordinate system used on earth.
[doublepost=1462731054][/doublepost]

And what do those grid lines on your chart signify? What's that? Nautical miles as related to minutes of latitude? How about that!

Nautical miles actually make some sense as they're based on something sane.

Non nautical miles do not.
[doublepost=1462779089][/doublepost]

And why is it "more logical"?

read the ISO standard I linked. It is explained there.
[doublepost=1462779169][/doublepost]

That's not really a valid argument. If we were actually bothered by anything related to British history, then we could turn the missiles and push a button and one big link to that time period would be gone.

We're not going to change how we measure something out of anger. We're not angry. But perhaps you're still upset about a little tea. The rest of us moved on.

Thing is, you don't even use UK measurements across the board. You saw fit to invent your own busted measurement for gallons for one.

 

[Roller]

Valid arguments regarding the benefits of the metric system notwithstanding, it's unlikely that the U.S. will transition to it in the foreseeable future, whether it's because of cost, inertia, laziness, or politics. And, given the current state of affairs in which politicians here deny grave threats such as climate change, I don't view moving to the metric system as an issue that I need to be overly concerned about.

As for date representations, which have nothing to do with units, I also think that change is unlikely for the reason mentioned by others.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Valid arguments regarding the benefits of the metric system notwithstanding, it's unlikely that the U.S. will transition to it in the foreseeable future, whether it's because of cost, inertia, laziness, or politics. And, given the current state of affairs in which politicians here deny grave threats such as climate change, I don't view moving to the metric system as an issue that I need to be overly concerned about.

As for date representations, which have nothing to do with units, I also think that change is unlikely for the reason mentioned by others.

Oddly enough, compulsion - or necessity - sometimes works.

Both Britain (and Ireland, which was tied to the UK currency) transitioned to a decimal based currency system - in 1971 - prior to joining what was then the EEC in 1973.

However, in the US, inertia and a perceived lack of need, has meant that there is no appetite for change.

 

[TechZeke]

As a Civil Engineering major, here's my 2 cents:

In terms of temperature, C seems just as pointless as F. In pretty much every STEM related class, you need Kelvin anyway. C is obviously easier to work with because you can just add 273.15 to get to Kelvin.

In terms of daily use, I like F better because high number like 100 = hot outside for a human while a lower number like 30 is cold. Have 0 and 100 for freezing and boiling points of water don't really mean much since I never use or worry about these temperature in daily life. Oddly enough, I understand C purely because computer component temps are always given in C.

In Civil Engineering, its really going to depend on what system your country uses. Imperial seems to work equally well as Metric but as an American I can mentally get a sense of lb/ft^2 for normal and shear stress than N/m^2. Same with transportation engineering. I can easily get a sense of gauging/imagining mph speed or ft radius of a highway curve, but I'd pressed to make a good intuition judgment on say, intuitively knowing what a computer program would spit out is wrong or off with km/h and meters without doing some rough calculation.

Metric is obviously more flexible since you can add prefixes to get smaller or bigger units on the fly, but imperial is just as practical for Civil use since no cars are going to be going 50 Mega-meters per hour or a structural beam with 5 micro-N of force.

Metric definitely wins on fluid mechanics though. Trying to deal with head, gamma, center of pressure, etc in imperial units is dreadful. I'd take the hit of not being able to fully imagine 50 km/h in speed over deaing with hydraulics in imperial units any day of the week.

Not opposed to Metric, and definitely think its more logical but since as an Engineer I'm taught to deal will both units anyway, it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Wondercow]

Bonus, barely related Simpsons quote: "Lousy Smarch weather ..."

Yeah, but that was due to the school's misprinted calendars, not a move to different units

"'Do not touch Willy.' Good advice."

 

[A.Goldberg]

I can't begin to tell you how frustrated I was when I was working on the fuel pump and found that someone had replaced a nut and bolt combo with a metric equivalent size. The most frustrating part was having to get out from under the car and get the metric sockets and wrenches, which I rarely use.

Yes, nothing is more annoying than having to switch between the two conventions. Metric metric metric BAM sae, or vice versa. I believe my brothers LR was a hodgepodge of both. If I remember, the further down towards the engine block you get the less metric there is (as the Rover V8 is based off the 1960's Buick 215- and very prone to head gasket issues)

My mom had a Saab way back when. That thing had torx bolts allll over the place. Absolutely an absurd way to build a car. I remember my dad under the hood swearing about it when I was ~4 YO.

 

[jgelin]

I actually prefer Fahrenheit because of the smaller intervals. You can get more precise temperatures without resorting to decimals. The range of temperatures in this part of California can be about 25-105. That's an 80-degree range. In Celsius that's -3 to 40, a 40 degree difference. You get twice the amount of temperatures to use with Fahrenheit.

Couldn't agree more. I live in Florida, we need to be as accurate as possible with these numbers. Not oh is is a HOT 28C today??? Or more of a cooler 28C?? Where as you could just say it is 78 degrees F or 80F cutting the crap and getting to the real matter at hand: it's hot as hell.

 

[bunnspecial]

I was discussing a mass spec problem with a friend last night, and something else that hit me was how-even in science-pressure units are all over the place.

Offhand, I can think of six pressure units that are in common use: PSI, Pascals, Atmospheres, Bars, millimeters of mercury(aka torr) and inches of mercury.

Of these, two directly translate to force-PSI(self explanatory) and Pascals are 1 newton/square meter. Pascals are the official SI unit, but are so small to be of little use-the kiloPascal is more common, but even then is not extremely common.

The "atmosphere" makes sense as 1 atm is the(approximate) atmospheric pressure at sea level. It's a convenient unit for calculations near ambient pressures for that reason.

mmHg and inHg are based on atmospheric pressures in the height of a mercury column barometer, but of course can also measure pressure differential in a manometer. They were convenient units when these type instruments were still in common use and, in those applications, can be measured directly. Barometric pressure in the US is still commonly measured in in.Hg.

The one that has always made very little sense to me is the bar. 1 bar=1kPa, which is a little less than 1atm. I find it to be an awkward and inconvenient unit to use, and is one I'd like to see go away.

For vacuum applications, torr(mmHg) are the dominant units. What brought this train of thought to my mind was the fact that I was trying to help a friend sort some data from a mass spec that didn't really make sense. I found a manufacturer diagram of the instrument(Thermo-Fisher Orbitrap) that gave the pressure inside the Orbitrap as 10^-13 bar. Initially, when I saw the drawing, my jaw dropped because I just looked at the number and not the units. 10^-12 torr is a realistic limit for a vacuum that most laboratory applications can achieve-beyond you can get serious outgassing of every component in the vacuum chamber and you have to start doing exotic things with your high vacuum pumps to keep them from causing problems(the common silicone oil used in diffusion pumps has a vapor pressure in that range). I then realized that the diagram denoted the pressure as 10^-13 barr, and all made sense.

 

[D.T.]

Yeah, but that was due to the school's misprinted calendars, not a move to different units

"'Do not touch Willy.' Good advice."

Correct, that's why I prefaced it with "barely related" (re: language patterns, acceptance of such vs. units/measurements ... )

 

[bunnspecial]

My mom had a Saab way back when. That thing had torx bolts allll over the place. Absolutely an absurd way to build a car. I remember my dad under the hood swearing about it when I was ~4 YO.

I actually had to invest in a bunch of torx drivers for the Lincoln-they're everywhere!

With that said, my brother in law had a Saab and I've never heard him speak with such hatred toward a car after he got rid of it!

 

[A.Goldberg]

I actually had to invest in a bunch of torx drivers for the Lincoln-they're everywhere!

With that said, my brother in law had a Saab and I've never heard him speak with such hatred toward a car after he got rid of it!

Pretty much same story as my Mom/Dad. I think they kept it for 2 years (pre-GM era Saabs) before trading it in. It had a lot of issues and always took months to get parts from Sweden.

 

[ThisBougieLife]

Q

Can you feel the difference between 65 and 66 F?


My bet is no.

Actually I'm quite sensitive to temperature and probably could feel the difference. When I set my heater to 68, I find a significant difference between 67 and 68, for example. Not all differences would matter, but there are a few that are more significant than others.

Like numbers, most significant/largest units first.

But the purpose of stating a date is not to make a cumulative measurement of time. It's an identification of a certain span of time.

When we say something like 3 gallons, 2 cups, 5 oz., that's a cumulative measurement of volume. What matters more is the whole, not the parts of the whole. There's no justification for more strongly linking the cups and the ounces or the cups and gallons or the ounces and gallons. The three only form a coherent unit when they're together. And what ultimately matters is their cumulative value.

A comparison for time would be 3 hours, 13 minutes, 5 seconds. In situations like these, sure, ordering them any way other than by size doesn't make any sense, but that's because they're a cumulative measurement, with the units getting more precise from left to right. When someone identifies a date, like May 9th, 2016, the purpose of doing so is not to count 2,016 years (from some arbitrary point nonetheless), then count 5 months, then 9 days. The point is to identify a specific 24 hour period, that is, the one that we call May 9th, 2016. And unlike in the volume measurement or the measure of 3 hrs. 13 min. 5 sec., there is an argument for more strongly linking the month with the day. "May 9th" identifies the 24-hour-unit and the year simply indicates where (in time) the unit should be placed. The same cannot be said for something like "3 hrs. 13 min. 5 sec." where what really matters is the cumulative amount of time that has passed.

 

[mobilehaathi]

However, in the US, inertia and a perceived lack of need, has meant that there is no appetite for change.

I think there are many people in the US who don't want to change simply because there is some perceived value in being obstinate.
Frankly, I would support and prefer a transition to the metric system, but it seems unlikely in the current political climate.

 

[Wondercow]

Not oh is is a HOT 28C today??? Or more of a cooler 28C?? Where as you could just say it is 78 degrees F or 80F cutting the crap

But, according to Siri, 78 °F is 25.6 and 80 °F is 26.7. I don't think there's ever been a time when I needed a temperature given to half a degree Celsius, but that doesn't stop people from using and reporting them; it's just not a big deal.

I remember reading that, for the average person, a temperature change of 1 °C is generally noticeable and anything less isn't; however, on hairless skin at the base of the thumb, one may notice a difference of 0.02-0.07 °C in cooling or 0.03-0.09 °C of warming. That being said, if it's a slow change, < 0.5 °C per minute, many people won't notice a change of 4-5 °C! [source]

 

[Breaking Good]

Okay guys, this is probably my angry 1 AM self again posting here, but this is something that has been bothering me for a few weeks now. I am posting it here because I know this is a website primarily of American people, and I don't know who else to rant this about.


Okay, first off, temperature. We all know what the three useful temperature measurements are. Only one is used in daily use, it's Celsius, and across the entire world. It is the most logical of the three, 0° is water's freezing point, 100° is its boiling point, every semi-educated person knows that. Only THREE countries use Fahrenheit exclusively, and surprise surprise, the United States is one of them. Why? Why is that necessary? Why use a system that is absolutely outdated, makes no sense whatsoever (water freezes at 32° and melts at 212°? yeah, totally makes sense), that is used by basically no one else? Even, excuse me for this term, stubborn countries like the United Kingdom now use Celsius exclusively and primarily. Even Canada, and its influence of the country did not force it to keep Fahrenheit. It annoys me because every time someone says "it's 60° outside!" I have to google and convert it because that means nothing for me, and I don't communicate enough with Americans to bother learning it. I could get away with it if it was something that was used interchangeably in multiple countries, but it isn't, it's outdated.

Second, measurement units. On one hand, you have the most logical system on the planet, the metric system. Simple, each unit correlates with each other, and there are basic prefixes which simply divide or multiply the numbers by multiples of 10. And I will be blunt here, the imperial units are more intuitive and are still somewhat logical. However, once you want to do anything slightly more complex, it becomes annoying. You can't do anything with a system like that. You have to learn the massive amount of words and how each of them correspond with each other. Imagine instead of having to use Kilobytes, Megabytes, Gigabytes, Terabytes, you would instead use Floppies, Discs, Drives, and Servers. It seems like the logical option, but they do not work together well at all and you gotta remember all of that crap. Once again, only the United States along with two other small countries exclusively use this system. In fact, when I thought that the United Kingdom was responsible for the same thing, it turns out it's technically the main measurement system of today (even though many people still use the other one), so I've actually gotta give them credit for having the guts to defy a traditional system. Every commonwealth country has adopted the SI, even if some like Canada still offer it occasionally. Seriously, why do this? Sure, I can deal with that, it's not like it's stupid or anything, but NOT when it's officially only used in a SINGLE GODDAMN COUNTRY (I'm excluding minor countries here because they are usually very small and have very little influence on the rest of the world).

Finally, this one pisses me off so much I just want to die. The date system. The entire world uses one or the other, either a DD/MM/YYYY system (common in European countries), either a YYYY/MM/DD system (common in East-Asian countries and some other places). Both are perfectly fine, as they represent a proper level of importance. What is NOT fine is when a single country just comes to troll everybody and bring a MM/DD/YYYY system, which completely messes up the order of the dates. The month, then a small part of the month, and then the year which the month takes place in? WHAT? How does that make any sense? WHY IS THAT NECESSARY? WHY THE ILLOGICALITY? I can bear with a January 1st, 2016 date system because it is closer to being a feature of the language, but not when it's a purely written form! At least use YYYY/MM/DD if you want to keep the M/D part! Seriously!


Okay, I understand that this was a bit blunt. But I can't accept that. I can't accept a country where there are people so lazy to adopt systems that are, by far, much more convenient than whatever is present, especially considering we are in 2016 and no improvement has been made to this date. And not to mention I'm sure there will be some idiots defending this system saying that "we are not sheeple to follow other people like that!". Well, uh, then you're sheeple to your own ****ing community. Any thoughts? Sure, you may call be brainwashed if that's what you believe, but I'd just like to point out that even though I grew up in a 24h system and I completely switched to 12h. And now I'm (partially) back at 24h. During this whole time, I barely spent any time outside. How exactly can you prove this against me if that's your intent? Anyway, any reasonable and non-biased explanations and/or defenses? Thank you.

And the United States wonders why we are behind the rest of the world in S.T.E.M. education.

As a U.S. citizen, I would like to thank you for raising this issue. You are 100% spot on in your criticism of the United States in this regard.

Even the country that invented the Imperial System doesn't use it any more. That should be clue right there as to how outdated it is.

I have a proposition, the Unites States will convert to an all metric system and the rest of the world will agree to use the period to mark the decimal point in numbers. I've always hated the use of a comma as the decimal point.

While we are at this, let's standardize paper size as well. I'm not a big fan of A4 sized paper. However, I'm not willing to say that 8.5" x 11" is that great either.

Anybody have a suggestion on a standard paper size?

 

[garirry]

Couldn't agree more. I live in Florida, we need to be as accurate as possible with these numbers. Not oh is is a HOT 28C today??? Or more of a cooler 28C?? Where as you could just say it is 78 degrees F or 80F cutting the crap and getting to the real matter at hand: it's hot as hell.

I can't exactly understand how a 0.5 difference will EVER affect a person other than pure OCD or something. If I need super-precise temperature, then I'd add decimals to the number. You can write 28.5 degrees you know, it's not hard. But it's not like it's needed. And I know there are places much hotter than Florida that use Celsius just fine and they don't complain about a minuscule difference. Even a single Celsius degree of difference isn't that noticeable. The Kelvin scientists don't complain about how "imprecise" the measurement is (btw, Kelvin is directly based off Celsius). Just write in 302.44345345 K if you want to be THAT precise (though I'm sure only two or three digits after the period are written) and no problemo! If you can't use decimal numbers and you HAVE to use whole numbers, it just proves you're not very smart.

 

[mojolicious]

While we are at this, let's standardize paper size as well. I'm not a big fan of A4 sized paper. However, I'm not willing to say that 8.5" x 11" is that great either.

Anybody have a suggestion on a standard paper size?

What's your objection to metric paper? Is it the 'square root of 2' ratio, or the size of A4 specifically? Having always lived with A-sizes, US Letter just looks weirdly skinny.

 

[notjustjay]

You are overstating the problem, it's simpler than the English system and people would not lose their minds if they had to buy a liter of milk. Frankly it would not be difficult at all, just the expense of switching labels.

Yes, but the real question is: does the milk come in bags?

As for the OP, let's not kid ourselves - Canadians are also entrenched in the mixed-bag of Imperial vs metric measurements. I'll buy a 4L bag of milk (or a 2L carton), then fill up my 20 lb propane tank so I can throw some 8-oz hamburgers on the BBQ - brown them at 250 degrees F. It's 20 degrees C out, a nice spring evening to cook outside.

Then I'll fill up with 45L of gas, then run to Home Depot for a bunch of 8' 2x4's and some 3/4" plywood to build some shelving for the basement of my 1700 square-foot home. Luckily I only live 2km away.

 

[Renzatic]

I'll buy a 4L bag of milk...

...bag of milk? O_0