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pshufd

macrumors G3
Oct 24, 2013
9,982
14,455
New Hampshire
I've not watched LTT in a couple of years. I started watching them because it was interesting but GN is far more professional while I thought that LTT was a bit more theatrical. I don't need a suit and tie to get a point across but I don't need theatrics either.

GN is killer on investigative reporting.

I like Paul's Hardware as well as he points out a lot of stuff that doesn't work well and many of the things he talks about align with my interests.
 

Wokis

macrumors 6502a
Jul 3, 2012
931
1,276
Stockholm, Sweden
IIRC Linus stated many many years ago on "the WAN-Show" that his goal was to basically become Top Gear of tech geekdom. I think that mission statement pretty much flows through in any and all their projects, except for Labs which I see as some sort of pivot that evidently isn't turning out very well.

Essentially their things can be entertaining and less "dry" than Gamer's Nexus. I expect entirely different things from these channels.

People expect Linus to double-down indefinitely but I don't buy him to be that character. First off, I think he can see and concede to reasonable arguments, but even if say he doesn't agree or is completely bull-headed he's intelligent enough to see the optics of things and what needs to be done to keep his audience.
 
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zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,521
6,791
I don't really watch LTT anymore. Back when I was a teenager I used to watch them all the time and Linus inspired me to build my first PC when I was a kid. I've been watching them on and off again for well over a decade.

Recently, the few times I have watched them I noticed how rushed some of the videos are (one of the graphics card reviews has Linus talking to a webcam in a hotel room ???) and how many of the videos have a comment addressing some mistake in the video. It honestly seemed like almost every video I watched was them phoning it in, as if the presenters have been given a brand new device to make a video about and then given 1 hour to complete the video. Sloppy all around. These days the videos I enjoy the most are their reviews of interesting networking gear and Linus' home upgrades because it gives me a lot of inspiration and ideas for what I want to do at home.

It's nice to have Steve basically validate my vague emotional impression of sloppiness with an evidence backed video. Steve is right, both in terms of his criticisms but also in his explicit warning that the video is NOT meant to be drama, rather it's coming from a place of a constructive criticism and accountability -- like a family intervention. It's a shame so many people online are 'taking sides' when it's not one of those scenarios. The only way you come out of this defending LMG is if you're putting on the blinders and treating it like a hit piece. People throwing around accusations of "Steve is jealous of LMG" are seriously deluded.

Before watching the video my first thought was why not contact LMG directly to avoid any potential drama but it's easy to forget (as Steve points out) that LMG is a 120+ employee company, not just Linus and Luke sitting in a house somewhere like the videos from 2012. If the company in question was Nvidia, AMD, MSI, or anyone else, Gamers Nexus would make a similarly constructed video about it because it's in the community's interest to know -- and absolutely nobody would question the decision.

The real indictment moment is not even the much talked about Billet Labs controversy. Instead for me it was when GN played the clip of basically every core LMG employee (including Linus himself, back when he was still CEO) saying there's not enough time to do everything properly and they wish to prioritize quality over quantity. The word that comes to mind again is sloppiness. If you all felt that way including Linus, the CEO literally running the show, why not do something about it? If I were to play devil's advocate I would think the concern at LMG is backing off on quantity may hurt their algorithm, decrease viewcount, and thereby decrease revenue. Again, it's a company, and the last thing they want to do is have to let people go and begin the process of degrowth because the momentum slows. That's unlikely to be the case though.

@Wokis quote about Linus wanting LTT to be the Top Gear or tech makes a lot of sense and honestly I have no problem with that, only you have to know when to toe the line and when to invest the bare minimum of work both in the content (like reading the manual for Billet Labs' heatsink) and in administration (like bothering to check if Billet Labs wanted their heatsink back).

There's really no excuse, they have to do better. There's no way Linus responds with anything at minimum other than "Steve is right, the reviews are sloppy and we have a lot of work to do. We're sorry to the community, Steve, and Billet Labs." As for the clip from the beginning of the video showing a Lab employee say something like "Unlike Gamers Nexus and the others we have a standardized process that produces test results from scratch every time" or whatever, I reckon Linus will excuse that comment as expressing Labs' goal of eventually getting to that point -- I'm perfectly happy with that response because that's kinda how I interpreted that comment too. It's obvious Labs isn't at a fully working state right now. As for how he'll address the other issues like conflicts of interest with various companies, I don't know.

Also it's sad Steve had to make those comments about how this could hurt GN because he's right: firstly this may damage his relationship with Linus (who doesn't have the best reputation of backing down from a slight against him) depending on his response and secondly the comment about "big streamers that are friends with Linus" is absolutely a reference to xQc's army of viewers that may swarm GN with hate because they think it's a 'beef' video rather than a highly agreeable mostly objective critique.

In conclusion Steve and GN did the right thing and I can't find a single element of their video that is incorrect. It's all on Linus now, the worst thing they can do is have their new CEO issue a press release on behalf of the company because I think that will anger the audience even more lol.

these days I think i'm going to write a couple sentences on MR and then end up writing a damn essay. 70% of the time i finish writing it and then delete it all before publishing because i think it's too long and pointless smh lol, sorry for the long read
 
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zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,521
6,791
I don’t know why but linus seems rude. I’m sorry linus.

He can be, even his own fans acknowledge it. He's very opinionated and doesn't have a problem with really hammering into people (including his own fans) that he thinks are in the wrong. Hence why this was a big gamble for GN; I predict Linus will acknowledge many of the video's talking points but he will absolutely push back on some of them and probably take personal offense.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,632
43,634
It's his opinion though. And we don't need to hear it 500 times.
I agree, but again as I said he's catering to his audience who are obviously people who are interested in PCs, and gamers.

I watched LTT when the staff themselves said they couldn't be proud of their work
That's the sad part. I try to have pride in my work, and to say that they're proud of nothing that is coming out is really eye opening.

But LTT is already a pro at clickbait, what's there to learn?
Yeah, its almost like a game. I don't mind that aspect, especially when you get that its done tongue in cheek. I think he was the first or one of the first to coyly introduce the sponsor of the video

Sometimes the videos feel like a wealthy person lifehack presentation
Even before Steve's video, this bothered me, him going to his huge house, complaining about one aspect of it, whether it was wifi, automation or whatever. Seemed like he was flexing and showing off his fortune.

I don't think Linus himself has done any laptop reviews since he's invested in Framework*
Oh he definitely does. He hasn't recused himself from reviews.

I like Paul's Hardware
Me too, I enjoy his laid back approach, his humor, and insights.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,632
43,634
As for Linus, he got a flack, and rightlyfully so with the Trust me bro. He didn't really have a great written policy for his backpack and he basically said trust me bro on the wan show. Steve more or less came out hard on that, as its really anti-consumer. Linus backed down and provided a full comprehensive warranty.

In all honesty, I don't get the push into merchandising. Yeah, many YTers offer cups, coasters, mouse mats, but he takes it byond a content creator. Its not skin of my nose, what he makes/doesn't make but I do find it odd.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G3
Oct 24, 2013
9,982
14,455
New Hampshire
As for Linus, he got a flack, and rightlyfully so with the Trust me bro. He didn't really have a great written policy for his backpack and he basically said trust me bro on the wan show. Steve more or less came out hard on that, as its really anti-consumer. Linus backed down and provided a full comprehensive warranty.

In all honesty, I don't get the push into merchandising. Yeah, many YTers offer cups, coasters, mouse mats, but he takes it byond a content creator. Its not skin of my nose, what he makes/doesn't make but I do find it odd.

I started a YT channel to deal with a specific tech problem and it has branched out into various tech issues in trading and some specialized macOS stuff. It's the only place on the internet for certain technical solutions as well. But I never ask people to click like, subscribe or share as I simply don't care if people click like, subscribe or share. I find that the vast majority of the channels I subscribe to do ask for those things though.
 
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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,975
7,146
Perth, Western Australia
LMG is entertainment or shallow dive overview

GN is where you get the real details from


LMG have the YouTube algorithm figured out. They produce what gets revenue out of YouTube. Linus is just playing the game, if you don't like his stuff blame youtube's algorithm. He's well and truly capable of the type of content GN put out, but its not as profitable.
 
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Mr. Dee

macrumors 603
Dec 4, 2003
5,990
12,833
Jamaica
As LTT got larger, there is a sense of growth over quality. On top of creating all these sub channels, it’s almost like he’s spamming Youtube to get more revenue out of the system. I occasionally watch some of the videos, but it feels like Linus is always dreaming about MKBHD for some reason. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the audacity to approach Marcus to join the LMG as a sub channel.
 
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Unggoy Murderer

macrumors 65816
Jan 28, 2011
1,157
4,041
Edinburgh, UK
As for Linus, he got a flack, and rightlyfully so with the Trust me bro. He didn't really have a great written policy for his backpack and he basically said trust me bro on the wan show. Steve more or less came out hard on that, as its really anti-consumer. Linus backed down and provided a full comprehensive warranty.

In all honesty, I don't get the push into merchandising. Yeah, many YTers offer cups, coasters, mouse mats, but he takes it byond a content creator. Its not skin of my nose, what he makes/doesn't make but I do find it odd.
On the merch aspect, it's risk reduction - another revenue stream for them.

I bought the LTT screwdriver, and to be fair to them it's a great bit of kit. Good quality, the grip genuinely is excellent, and it does the job well.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,632
43,634
bought the LTT screwdriver, and to be fair to them it's a great bit of kit
I've only heard great things about their products, so they definitely work hard at producing the quality. I just wondered if the time spent focusing on the merchandise was detracting from time from their main job. I thought that, well before this video landed.

I think Steve touched upon how they collaborate with Noctua on things, but then also report/review Noctua products and in all honesty there's definitely a conflict of interest there.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,096
We honestly do not deserve Gamer Nexus. They're the gold standard of independent testing. Their tests found so many defects with different parts, defects that warranted recalls, such as the NZXT case that caught fire


Or the exploding Gigabyte power supplies (A moment of silence for that RTX 3090 the PSU killed. We will never forget your sacrifice in the name of science. 🫡)


LMG should stick with the entertainment until ready. As a quality professional it takes time and money to build robust procedures and put in place, if not error is guaranteed. The Billets Lab fiasco was just a joke and one of the owners of the company (LMG) stating he's not willing to spend a few hundred dollars is a massive red flag. Very much strikes as they are moving too fast, worse need to due expansions of resent.

The Billet Labs fiasco is the reason I unsubbed from all their channels (except Mac Address. That's their only channel that doesn't rush, which is why their vids always have such high production quality and are a joy to watch.)

I understand Steve's concern as such matters if not corrected can fast become the way a company or business unit operates. In the vast majority of issues I've delt with; human error, inadequate process, manufacturing & engineering design. Certainly seems there's a reluctance to correct matters...

LMG shove videos out as fast as possible since sponsor spots are the bulk of their revenue. Every video is payday for them regardless how they perform in viewcount. All these bad tests could've been avoided if they just slowed down, but because they just gotta have a new video out ASAP everytime, they don't go back to correct the mistake because as Linus says "I'm not gonna spend another $500 for that employee to test again." (He says as they spent $14,000 on a fully specced M2 Ultra Mac Pro and then another $10,000 on a fully specced M2 Ultra Mac Studio, and spend thousands of dollars on high end CPUs and GPUs everytime, oh but $500 to correct a very important test nooooooo we can't do that.)
 

playtech1

macrumors 6502a
Oct 10, 2014
678
849
LTT has always felt a bit like one of those flashy game review magazines from the 90s - easy to read, some nice screenshots and a somewhat finger in the air score at the bottom of the reviews. GN is more like the 00s internet hardware reviews - all heavy-duty graphs and dense technical analysis with no concession to the average Joe. I can see why GN gets annoyed when LTT messes up in its efforts when trying to play in the same space that is GN's bread and butter.

But... I think what LTT has been trying to do with Labs is going down the right path - adding more rigour to the reviewing, while still keeping the videos themselves fairly accessible and snappy. A few benchmarking mistakes here and there I think are fine and hardly unusual - if I'm a buyer I would not rely solely on LTT.

The Billet Labs thing is of a different nature and inexcusable - the video should have been canned if they couldn't test the product properly and the auction was obviously a massive mistake.

I expect LTT now employs so many people that producing watched content is going to be the priority over producing quality content. At the end of the day Linus is under pressure just to keep the lights on.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,096
I think the best example of the problems with LMG is their video on the Mac Game Porting Toolkit, a video they admitted they did zero research on and rushed out.


Notice first the video title. "Mac Gaming Sucks.....but that's changing" that long space hiding the second half so they get clicks from the Mac vs PC crowd. Now, in the video they used an M1 Ultra Mac Studio using an outdated build of GPT that ran terribly on Ultra chips, a problem that got fixed. Because of this, several games they tried to run would not launch, and games like Hollow Knight ran terribly. All these are issues no other Youtuber had, since other Youtubers did research. After the video released, Linus admitted they did no research and rushed it out, and despite that, this video is still up. They did not bother to make a correct video using a version of GPT that worked right


And then shortly afterwards, THEY DID IT AGAIN WITH THEIR M2 ULTRA MAC STUDIO TESTS!


I'm starting to see why Apple blacklisted them from coming to events.
 

Unggoy Murderer

macrumors 65816
Jan 28, 2011
1,157
4,041
Edinburgh, UK
I've only heard great things about their products, so they definitely work hard at producing the quality. I just wondered if the time spent focusing on the merchandise was detracting from time from their main job. I thought that, well before this video landed.

I think Steve touched upon how they collaborate with Noctua on things, but then also report/review Noctua products and in all honesty there's definitely a conflict of interest there.
They have a lot of employees now, something like 70-80 people? I wonder if anyone's being affected it's Linus, but he's now stepped aside and let in a CEO or similar role, so he can focus on content.

With regards to collaborations and sponsorships, I think they simply have "good relationships", and maybe Noctua's products are indeed excellent. With the stuff that happened with Eufy / Anker privacy, LMG dropped them like a hot potato despite them being a pretty serious long-term sponsor up to that point. I think Linus's words were "Anker are dead to us", so I'm sure there are at least minimum standards within LMG. This is just speculation on my part though.
 

Unggoy Murderer

macrumors 65816
Jan 28, 2011
1,157
4,041
Edinburgh, UK
[...] I'm starting to see why Apple blacklisted them from coming to events.
Ah yeah, I really didn't like that video (maybe that was its intention!).

I kind of feel LMG missed or overlooked that customers looking to buy a Mac Studio will likely be replacing an iMac, which is why Apple did the comparisons against that. I'd be confident in saying very few customers would be upgrading from an M1 Studio to an M2 Studio. Apple provided comparisons to a product that would likely be more relevant to the customers buying the machine. M1 vs M2 specs are good for the techies, but most consumers probably don't care much.

I feel LMG maybe had a knee-jerk reaction to it without thinking about the "bigger picture".
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,632
43,634
But... I think what LTT has been trying to do with Labs is going down the right path - adding more rigour to the reviewing,
I think they bit off more then they can chew, and I also question the ROI in spending so much money. I don't see them growing significantly more because of this move. They're already a huge YT channel that does some things very well. Going so hard in on the labs/testing won't markedly grow the channel - at least I'm of the opinion that it won't
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,096
I think they bit off more then they can chew, and I also question the ROI in spending so much money. I don't see them growing significantly more because of this move. They're already a huge YT channel that does some things very well. Going so hard in on the labs/testing won't markedly grow the channel - at least I'm of the opinion that it won't

Those resources spent on The Lab could've gone into Mac Address instead. Jonathan is overworked as it is since he's mostly doing everything himself. Writing, directing, and presenting, all himself plus a few others.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,632
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Eufy / Anker privacy, LMG dropped them like a hot potato despite them being a pretty serious long-term sponsor up to that point
That move cost them money and sponsors and I applaud them for such, but as mentioned in the steve video, they showed some kid gloves when it came to Asus and a pro-Noctua bias does seem evident.
 

Unggoy Murderer

macrumors 65816
Jan 28, 2011
1,157
4,041
Edinburgh, UK
That move cost them money and sponsors and I applaud them for such, but as mentioned in the steve video, they showed some kid gloves when it came to Asus and a pro-Noctua bias does seem evident.
Hmm not sure, they give Asus less than preferential treatment in the "mystery shopper" video, where they went through support channels posing as a regular end user, specifically without mentioning they were part of LMG.

3/5 was a little generous, but to Asus's credit, they did get to a resolution in the end. That's far better than I've had with some other companies in my own experiences over the years.

Edit: I also looked into Noctua a little more. It seems (from Google shopping results) that their products are almost universally rated as excellent by customers, lowest rating I could see on the first couple of pages was 4.5/5, with most in 4.7-4.8 range, based on hundreds of ratings. I personally don't have any issue if any content creator recommending any product that is genuinely good, which Noctua seems to satisfy.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
The Billet Labs fiasco is the reason I unsubbed from all their channels (except Mac Address. That's their only channel that doesn't rush, which is why their vids always have such high production quality and are a joy to watch.)
I'm rather waiting on LMG's response; if they acknowledge they have issue in a professional manner just blow it off, worse refute with arrogance...

YT also needs to get it's house in order as all creators should be treated equally

Q-6
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,096
I'm rather waiting on LMG's response; if they acknowledge they have issue in a professional manner just blow it off, worse refute with arrogance...

YT also needs to get it's house in order as all creators should be treated equally

Q-6

I doubt we're gonna get a response because chances are Billet Labs is lawyering up and anything Linus says could be use against him during deposition. And I'm very sure LMG would prefer to avoid going to court over this.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,632
43,634
Hmm not sure, they give Asus less than preferential treatment in the "mystery shopper" video, where they went through support channels posing as a regular end user, specifically without mentioning they were part of LMG.
I could be wrong, but with issues that ASUS have been having especially lately, i.e., AMD 5 motherboards, they seemed to be the only ones not speaking out harshly. Again I could be wrong, and I missed it

I also looked into Noctua a little more. It seems (from Google shopping results) that their products are almost universally rated as excellent by customers,
Noctua is the market leader, they're the ones that other makers try to knock off the top of the hill. I think their fans and coolers are the best. I'm rocking their fans and air cooler as we speak.

I'm rather waiting on LMG's response;
Me to, and I think we'll see something on the next WAN show. Whether they talk about Steve's video in general terms, or specifically about their quality or Billet remains to be seen

YT also needs to get it's house in order as all creators should be treated equally
No question, even Linus admitted when they were hacked, he had access to a level of support that few others have. He got his site up and running with a minimum amount of work, while others dealing with the hacking issue were still down days/weeks later.
 
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