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seek3r

macrumors 68020
Aug 16, 2010
2,334
3,356
No government should have the right to read personal messages. We are moving more and more to socialism!
That's not socialism, and your post is part of the problem. This is a step towards totalitarianism, which can be the result of any economic or governmental system when taken to extreme or corrupted respectively. The idea that something like this comes out of "socialism" and not, say, "capitalism" is a huge reason why governments like the current UK govt can pass this to begin with: people believe their particular preferred ideology is immune or antithetical to this level of control. Some fictional "socialist" push of a *right wing government* isnt the problem here, the current UK government is *not* socialist, it's right wing and very much on the opposite end of the spectrum from socialism and claiming it is makes it harder to have real conversations about the dangers of the *actual* current government - *and* makes it hard to discuss the benefits of some socialist policies.

Nothing exists in the real world as absolute good or absolute evil, there are beneficial socialist policies as there are beneficial capitalist ones - and this particular scheme of the UK is neither.

So stop blaming this on some fictional boogeyman and blame this on the right wing politicians consolidating their power out of fear of losing control, because that's *actually* what's happening right now in the UK. There are places in the world where similar policies come from the left, even from socialists, but this isnt one of them.
 

bigchrisfgb

macrumors 65816
Jan 24, 2010
1,456
653
If someone is known sex offender, it would be very helpful to society for the government to keep tabs on whom they are chatting with and what is being shared. Same for known terrorists affiliations, gang members and those convicted of fraud.
In the UK, if you have been committed of a sex offence crime, you are often barred from having a computer or even a mobile phone. This is nearly always the case if you have such material on your devices or used your devices to view or share them.
It also applies to other crimes.
I remember one time being on a course a the instructor telling us about how one time one of the people was on the computer, relatively free rein on there. Not long after he had left the police had turned up, asked if he was still about, and asked which computer he was using. They immediately confiscated the computer. He and everyone else there thought he had been looking at indecent images, it turns out he was a football hooligan and he used the computer to communicate on a hooligan forum to organise a fight. He had been banned from owning his own computer for this very reason.
 
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djstile

macrumors regular
Jun 17, 2009
180
124
Government overreach in non-dictatorships traditionally seem to start in one of two ways:
1. Protecting the children.
2. Protecting the country.

This way anyone who offers any amount of pushback at all, no matter how reasonable will be met with:
1. Don't you care about children!? Are you a monster!?
2. Don't you care about our country!? Are you a terrorist!?

Once that overreach is established:
1. Once they have power, governments RARELY voluntarily give up any of that power.
2. Once it's established, it's very easy to parlay that power into politically based surveillance.
 

arkitect

macrumors 604
Sep 5, 2005
7,133
13,145
Bath, United Kingdom
Not the point of this post but your Overton window is very narrow. The conservatives would be a middle of the road party in some countries.
That may be true, and I am sure in the USA they would be classed as bleeding heart liberals to the far left of Bernie Saunders, but here in the UK we have at present the furthest Right Wing Tory party ever.
They make Thatcher and her gang look like kindergarten teachers.

The next election cannot come soon enough.
 

Motorola68000

macrumors 6502
Sep 12, 2022
312
295
I am with the UK government on this. They have asked social media companies to stop child abuse images/videos from appearing on their platforms and they have not done so to a level that appeases the UK government. All of them have dragged their feet year after year not coming up with viable solutions to stop child abuse images/video from appearing on their platforms. It was a number of years ago I think that the UK government told the companies to get their act together or the government will be forced to step in and do it for them. The images and videos continued to be posted on their platforms so the UK government decided to act. People all over the world complain about schools not taking action against bullies or assaults' against children or teachers. People complain about local councils not taking action against rogue builders or landlords and what is the one things that is common to each? those affected say 'deal with the problem otherwise I will be forced to take action myself'. If the ordinary man and woman on the street do it, why can't the UK government? The social media companies were warned. They had a number of years to come up with viable and credible solutions to stop abuse images and videos from appearing on their platforms. They didn't take the threat seriously therefore they did virtually nothing and now they complain when a government steps in to do something the companies were asked to do themselves. Therefore what did the social media companies expect was going to happen? that the UK government was going to allow these social media platforms to continue to host child abuse images and videos? not likely. You reap what you sow.
That is really sad and demonstrates you really don't know either the implications of client side surveillance, nor the fact it would mean the child abusers would be even harder to catch, as if you think they will not know how to circumvent CSAM then you are wrong.

By all means iCloud and servers could be scanned for CSAM, but NOT client side scanning which steps over a red line, which is understood by so many experts and for good reason.

It was never about CSAM, flawed as it can be, it was about client side scanning opening a Pandora's box of dangers, and where people who have bought equipment, pay for the energy used on that equipment, and the processing speeds expected should not then be treated as guilty until proven innocent, which goes against every idea of justice let alone the can of worms it opens for a total surveillance society.

Anyone who has ever been involved in cracking down on these paedophiles will if answering honestly tell you they are always one step ahead, and putting client side scanning at the outset CSAM would just make it so much harder to track these people down.

People are really getting caught up in the merits or otherwise of CSAM, when in fact it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with CLIENT SIDE SCANNING.

Imagine how we are all bombarded with potential fraudsters now and how governments and institutions tell us how we need to make passwords and bank details secure....IMPOSSIBLE WITH CLIENT SIDE SCANNING giving the potential of NOTHING BEING PRIVATE.

Sadly it is thought that 2-3% of adult men are involved in paedophilia, with 50.42% of the population being Male of which 16.4% are under 18, and if we suggest that these are not involved, its 34.02% bringing down that figure to around 1-1.5% (still too high but those figures are at present only presumed).

The world population is approximately 8,200,000,000 people yet ironically there are thought to be around 10,000,000,000 devices such as smart phones etc.

Overall then these miscreants represent an absolutely tiny overall figure of around 1-1.5% and I would remind you of how we perceive justice should be, i.e. it is not and never should be the innocent having to prove they are innocent, they should always be presumed to be innocent and client side scanning presumes guilt of a massive majority of the populating rendering on line safety and even off line safety including banking or anything involving data that needs to be secure....IMPOSSIBLE with client side scanning.

The doctrine civilised society incorporates dates to 1769, "the law holds that it is better that 10 guilty people escape, than 1 innocent suffer" = THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Client side scanning turns that on its side, using child abuse and paedophilia as a convenient excuse, which is wrong on so many counts.

We often hear about 'freedom of speech' etc., but with client side scanning even private thoughts committed to YOUR personal property are no longer free from surveillance, private details on every aspect of your life or others, and it could actually bring the internet to a complete halt as far as technological change, because it would mean we were going backwards.

People assume wrongly in my opinion that governments, bad players etc., will only be interested in client side scanning via CSAM with regard the morally abhorrent child molesters....History demonstrates what might start as a moral crusade is usurped by those who can, including governments and criminal fraternity.
 

seek3r

macrumors 68020
Aug 16, 2010
2,334
3,356
Criminals are using new technology and changing the way they operate. I understand how law enforcement needs to evolve to combat the threat. The issue is that criminals don't need to follow laws for their activity, while law enforcement does.

That's always been true, we have *always* had that problem, and yet for obvious reasons we have decided that letting cops do anything and everything they want instead of following the laws is detrimental. The fact that you can now add "with a computer" to any crime doesnt change that. Law enforcement hasnt actually managed to show any benefit to this kind of scheme that overrides the public need for security in communications, or for that matter protects such backdoors from abuse. The publics best interest is overwhelmingly in keeping secure comms given that. The cops already have huge amounts of power to seize and monitor, they don't need to dragnet all comms.

If someone is known sex offender, it would be very helpful to society for the government to keep tabs on whom they are chatting with and what is being shared. Same for known terrorists affiliations, gang members and those convicted of fraud. These types of crimes need to be stopped before they happen.
There's already software for that, endpoint monitoring software, usually installed at the convict's expense as a court ordered requirement for using a computing device, so how would this law help?

The issue, as I see it, is that once you create a back door, there is no way to keep that back door closed from, say China, or Russia from using it for political purposes, rather than law enforcement. Further, there is no way to ensure that the NSA doesn't put a "national security" request on someone because they are a Trump supporter, or Obama supporter or an Ed Snowder supporter.

yes, exactly.

And this is where we get stuck. We cannot destroy our freedom in support of law enforcement, because everything is fallible.
Agreed
 
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crawfish963

macrumors 6502a
Apr 16, 2010
933
1,637
Texas
Do these idiots not know what the word ENCRYPTION means or?

Are the service providers supposed to do magic? I hope they follow through with their claim and leave the UK.

Also, is the UK simply to cheap to buy Pegasus like any other rich government? I mean, even Mexico is able to afford it
Pegasus is extremely expensive. No government will spend a few mil to spy on some random guy in Bath. Of course the UK has it but it’s not something you buy and then can use on millions at once.
 

Motorola68000

macrumors 6502
Sep 12, 2022
312
295
You’re conflating social media with private messages (presumably sent via iMessage). Sounds like you’d release all of your freedoms if you felt you gained security in return. History has shown how that notion has played out over and over and over and over…
While yes I agree with you partially while somewhere like in a private setting..the UK wanting to scan encrypted data is another level, basically defeats the purpose of encryption
Yes and the same governments tell people to safeguard their data, safeguard all banking details etc. etc. etc., all impossible with client side scanning, which could literally bring on line financial services and transactions to a halt without end to end encryption that is not then circumvented by client side scanning.
 

avz

macrumors 68000
Oct 7, 2018
1,791
1,871
Stalingrad, Russia
Government overreach in non-dictatorships traditionally seem to start in one of two ways:
1. Protecting the children.
2. Protecting the country.
From a conceptual standpoint these two are really one and the same: without the children your country will not have a future. Therefore attacking the children through drugs, suicide groups on social media etc. essentially is an attack against the country.
 

VulchR

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2009
3,416
14,313
Scotland
Wanting privacy is not the same thing as thinking child abuse is OK.

There are other ways to reduce child abuse, including getting a search warrant for somebody's phone. Moreover, you need to understand where the UK is. It has no written Constitution, so no Bill of Rights. The UK does belong to the ECHR, but the Conservative party, the one that is currently in power, is discussing leaving the ECHR so they no longer have to follow the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights. I have lived in the UK and a US citizen for 30 years. In the time I have been here freedom from double jeopardy, the right to assembly and protest, freedom of the press, freedom from being held without charge, freedom from blanket surveillance without probable cause, etc. have all been attacked and diminished. This latest move by a frankly unpopular UK government hardly inspires confidence.

Oh, and by the way, authoritarian regimes have the worst child abuse records. Catering to authoritarian politics harms children. Indeed, right now in the UK childhood hunger and homelessness is not unheard of, and the government is currently scrambling to repair and rebuild more than 100 schools found to be structurally unsound because the 'concrete' (RAAC) used in some construction from 1960-1990 has only an expected life of 30 years. The UK government does not impress me about its concern for children. There are likely other motives behind this legislation.
 
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MuppetGate

macrumors 6502a
Jan 20, 2012
651
1,086
This is a problem of Apple’s own making.

They’ve already shown that mass surveillance on-device is feasible, so now they’ve got the impossible job of cramming the genie back in the bottle.

Nicely done, Apple. 🙄
 

wigby

macrumors 68030
Jun 7, 2007
2,780
2,763
I'm apposed to mass surveillance as well, but that has nothing to do with socialism which is an economic theory more than anything else.
Socialism is the current catch-all phrase for ignorant Americans when they want to label something as bad. Many great parts of America are actually socialistic in terms of both social and economic. Same goes for capitalism.
 

laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,637
4,025
Earth
Wanting privacy is not the same thing as thinking child abuse is OK. We disagree about the means and not the goal, so please stop being so self-righteous.

There are other ways to reduce child abuse, including getting a search warrant for somebody's phone. Moreover, you need to understand where the UK is. It has no written Constitution, so no Bill of Rights. The UK does belong to the ECHR, but the Conservative party, the one that is currently in power, is discussing leaving the ECHR so they no longer have to follow the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights. I have lived in the UK and a US citizen for 30 years. In the time I have been here freedom from double jeopardy, the right to assembly and protest, freedom of the press, freedom from being held without charge, freedom from blanket surveillance without probable cause, etc. have all been attacked and diminished. This latest move by a frankly unpopular UK government hardly inspires confidence.

Oh, and by the way, authoritarian regimes have the worst child abuse records. Catering to authoritarian politics harms children. Indeed, right now in the UK childhood hunger and homelessness is not unheard of, and the government is currently scrambling to repair and rebuild more than 100 schools found to be structurally unsound because the 'concrete' (RAAC) used in some construction from 1950-1990 has only an expected life of 30 years. The UK government does not impress me about its concern for children. There are likely other motives behind this legislation.
When you lot want your own privacy and security to supersede that of safety, protection and welfare of children I shall be as self-righteous as I want to be.
 

Robert.Walter

macrumors 68040
Jul 10, 2012
3,112
4,437
I agree, and once they have it it is a short walk to looking for other stuff, in the name of security.



In the US, everything the right doesn’t like is socialist, and do not see the irony in collecting their welfare check while condemning socialism.
Can’t see the irony because of the ignorance goggles they wear.
 
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avz

macrumors 68000
Oct 7, 2018
1,791
1,871
Stalingrad, Russia
Socialism is the current catch-all phrase for ignorant Americans when they want to label something as bad. Many great parts of America are actually socialistic in terms of both social and economic. Same goes for capitalism.
Hitler was a master of such subversive operations: calling his party National Socialists. Also subversively attacking Pagan values while committing crimes under the Pagan symbol such as swastika.
 
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SamRyouji

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2016
325
1,126
I'm apposed to mass surveillance as well, but that has nothing to do with socialism which is an economic theory more than anything else.
It's more like a combo of authoritarianism+ totalitarianism for me. Socialism is not defined with mass surveillance, like the stereotype it's always been depicted in numerous media. However, socialism will always leads into totalitarianism because we humans are greddy (for money, power, everything) in nature.
 

LV426

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2013
1,846
2,279
I have lived in the UK and a US citizen for 30 years. In the time I have been here freedom from double jeopardy, the right to assembly and protest, freedom of the press, freedom from being held without charge, freedom from blanket surveillance without probable cause, etc. have all been attacked and diminished. This latest move by a frankly unpopular UK government hardly inspires confidence.
Agreed, for the most part. But double jeopardy was always a rotten way to conduct justice. If compelling new evidence comes to light, it is absolutely right that someone should face justice for a second time.
 

jz0309

Contributor
Sep 25, 2018
10,250
26,844
SoCal
Well, the UK government was put in place by the people, hence they represent what the citizens of the UK want? Or maybe not?
Well next time you vote, think twice…
 
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