2023 Formula 1 Season thread

[cyb3rdud3]

We don't use wind powered ships anymore either, but sailing is popular.

Motorsport should stop trying to be road relevant and the problem goes away.

There you go, sailing is popular, both recreational and also in sports. The technological developments from the sport do make it into the recreational ships as well.

I think it is great when there is development in sports at high (or sometimes not so high) costs that it trickles down in to everyday, or recreational behaviours. Rear view mirror, active suspension, paddle shifters, use of carbon fibre, aerodynamics, dohc engines, energy recovery, you name it. It is one of the elements I like about the sport.

 

[headlessmike]

We don't use wind powered ships anymore either, but sailing is popular.

Motorsport should stop trying to be road relevant and the problem goes away.

The problem is attracting manufacturers, particularly for the powertrains. No car company will invest in ICEs for racing if there is no road relevance.

 

[JustinePaula]

If everyone is all about electric, why has F1 not been abandoned as a formula, why make plans for 2026? Why not just call 2025 the last season of F1, then from 2026, E-Prix is the new F1e???

 

[cyb3rdud3]

If everyone is all about electric, why has F1 not been abandoned as a formula, why make plans for 2026? Why not just call 2025 the last season of F1, then from 2026, E-Prix is the new F1e???

Have patience, a few around the world are fighting a futile fight, they'll come around eventually.

But more importantly, the next-generation battery technology will be required for F1 level performances. Expectations are that that is about 5 years away. I don't need a lot of imagination how expensive that will be, but also how it is going to change the landscape considerably for everyday car drivers.

 

[pachyderm]

We don't use wind powered ships anymore either, but sailing is popular.

Motorsport should stop trying to be road relevant and the problem goes away.

100% Spot on.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

I had to laugh at Horner squirming at the last race with his comment about Lewis showing interest in a seat at Red Bull. It may well have been true, but it’s one of those things that is largely confidential unless of course you’re a a smug and disingenuous personality like Horner. There were suggestions Verstappen had contacted Mercedes in 2020 for a potential drive, but it’s natural for drivers to put the feelers out, especially to better performing teams. I loved that Lewis denied it and then Horner and Marko had different versions of what happened. Marko saying it was one of Hamilton’s management team and Horner saying Anthony Hamilton lol. I know there is a general sense it didn’t happen at all and Horner had has pants pulled down trying to stir. All the psychological fun that comes with F1.

You know when I was talking about the toxicity that Hamilton and his acolytes have brought to F1? This is a perfect example of that. Ascribing negative personality traits to the 'enemy', distorting the narrative so it fits your own view.

Noris at Ferrari would destroy LeClerc IMO.

Interesting. No evidence this would happen at all, of course. I think Lando is still young and inexperienced, and also seems quite arrogant, so needs to learn some racecraft and humility. Such a pairing could well be very exciting to watch though. LeClerc has more experience, and knows how to be very fast indeed.

The man is still a seven-time World Champion and has shown that he can still get results, even with a flawed car.

My point earlier was that he can't; he needs the car to suit him 100% or he struggles. He hasn't got the adaptability skills of Alonso or Verstappen. In 2021 he had the best car and still lost. He's a seven time WC because he had the best car for 6 of them. And won the first by a massive fluke. But he's been outdriven by team-mates in equal machinery, several times.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

We don't use wind powered ships anymore either, but sailing is popular.

Sails are used all around the world, for all sorts of commercial reasons; mainly fishing boats. And sails are making a comeback:

A New Golden Age Of Sailing Is Here: Five Exciting Projects

The next decade will see more innovation in ocean-bound technologies than the past 100 years. Here are five of the most exciting wind assisted technologies being developed around the world. Will the new Biden-Harris Presidency be able to jumpstart this new sustainable shipping industry in the U.S.?

www.forbes.com

Motorsport should stop trying to be road relevant and the problem goes away

Motorsport has to stay 'road relevant', as that's the connection to ordinary drivers that sucks in the interest. The engine manufacturers rely on commercial applications in order to have the money to play with in F1. F1 has always been about taking road car technology to the absolute limit. ICEs will be redundant in 10 years, so F1 has to move with the times. Electric motors are already capable of producing more power for weight, than ICEs. The only stumbling block currently, is battery life. But every year, this improves. I think the next big step in F1 tech will be the move to a greater E/ICE ratio for the power units. And then the ICE bit will eventually disappear altogether. That's progress.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

@Abdichoudxyz Lando arrogant!? Really? I think the confidence portrait is rightfully there. Maclaren with Lando/Oscar may not have shown on the last season as the second team, but towards the end of the season they looked most promising in my opinion.

Nope, just can't agree with my southern neighbour being arrogant.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

Lando arrogant!? Really?

Yeah; he's an arrogant rich kid. He needs this arrogance to translate into race wins though; so far he has none, and he's surrounded by drivers who have. He definitely has potential. But then so do many other drivers. He needs McLaren to continue improving; if other teams take a step forward next season, and McLaren don't, then he'll be fighting down the lower orders once more.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yeah; he's an arrogant rich kid.

Sure his dad was in the top 500 of the UK, his dad was richer than most but not that rich. And being the richest in Bristol is really not that hard 🤣😜 But none of that is his fault, is it? Also, having a rich dad doesn't make one arrogant.

He needs this arrogance to translate into race wins though; so far he has none, and he's surrounded by drivers who have. He definitely has potential. But then so do many other drivers. He needs McLaren to continue improving; if other teams take a step forward next season, and McLaren don't, then he'll be fighting down the lower orders once more.

True, he hasn't had a win. But then again, neither has 7 times world champion Lewis Hamilton in the last two seasons. And yes, I agree, as a team, McLaren need to keep this up and push through their current upper limit and improve further. I know it is ifs and buts, but if the RBR19 in combination with Max wasn't just unbeatable he would have had his moment. But they are getting closer, I'd be cheering when they manage to do it next year. Perhaps Lando needs to give Max some vlaamse mayonaise opposed to netherlands friet saus and he can get that advantage.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

his dad was richer than most but not that rich

What??? 'Not that rich'? How rich do you have to be??? 🤣

Most of the grid are from very, very wealthy families. It's a rich man's sport.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

What??? 'Not that rich'? How rich do you have to be??? 🤣

Well, he dropped in the rich list Not even in the top 500 anymore. But what has the wealth of his dad to do with him being arrogant?

Most of the grid are from very, very wealthy families. It's a rich man's sport.

And? What is the problem with that? Many sports have that, and even on a local level, it is a rather different demographic when playing tennis or field hockey compared to say football/soccer. Same when you get into horse riding, sailing, etc. And even more so when you want to start doing it professionally, unless you can get a sponsor. Still not seeing the link/relevance to arrogance, though.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

And? What is the problem with that?

It excluded people simply on economic grounds, so you don't necessarily get the very best drivers, just the ones rich enough to enter the sport in the first place. If F1 were the level playing field that football is, then we'd see a far more diverse range of participants in terms of ethnicity, culture etc. And probably, even better in terms of ability. Much is made of Lance Stroll only being in F1 cos his dad owns a team, but the reality is that most of them are only there cos they come from wealthy families. F1 would be improved by having less barriers to entry.

But what has the wealth of his dad to do with him being arrogant?

Arrogance is a trait often found in the children of wealthy people. Entitlement and privilege, that they don't fully acknowledge or appreciate. Things being handed to them rather than having ever to have had to work for them. People doing thigs for them rather thanhaving to ever do things for themselves. Levels of expectations from others that are the product of that privilege.

till not seeing the link/relevance to arrogance, though.

With Lando, it's been though some of his comments about other drivers; particularly when he said that Lewis' 7 world titles 'meant nothing' to him. And his blasé attitude when he smashed Max' $45,000 trophy. Things like that. Hopefully he will grow up and lose that arrogance.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

We don't use wind powered ships anymore either, but sailing is popular.

Motorsport should stop trying to be road relevant and the problem goes away.

I’d rather see F1 go down the privateer route too and it would come at the expense of manufacturers including Ferrari who use the sport to develop certain technologies to avoid costs. Then again it depends what the manufacturers are using the sport for? Engine development is frozen for years and it is still a platform for other technologies like KERS and motors. I like the idea of low emission fuels which keep target with the environmental message but also maintain the high octane experience that comes with F1.

I know fully electric racing is coming at some point, but I’d love to see F1 keep its appeal for as long as possible. Speed alone doesn’t make up for the sense of power lost for the spectators and TV viewers IMO. There is a definite loss in this regard when compared to cars pre 2014, and I’ve witnessed this first hand.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

I know fully electric racing is coming at some point, but I’d love to see F1 keep its appeal for as long as possible. Speed alone doesn’t make up for the sense of power lost for the spectators and TV viewers IMO. There is a definite loss in this regard when compared to cars pre 2014, and I’ve witnessed this first hand.

You're talking about a purely subjective experience though, nothing actually tangible. And everyone has different opinions. Motor racing is allabout getting round a track as fast as possible. That is the whole point. When fully electric cars can get round a track faster than a 'hybrid' car, then F1 will switch to that instead. It's progress, and F1 is all about progress. you can still have classic car racing if you really want, although it'll be slower and less efficient. Leave F1 to those of us that want to see the pinnacle of engineering progress in motorsport.

 

[Akrapovic]

The problem is attracting manufacturers, particularly for the powertrains. No car company will invest in ICEs for racing if there is no road relevance.

You don't need road car manufacturers. Road car manufacturers are not the norm for engine development in F1 historys. The recent trend of everything needs a road car badge is just that - recent. And even then a lot of the current engines are strictly speaking not road car manufacturers and would be spun off again. Mercedes HPP is just Ilmor. Renault Sport F1 is a sticker for a Mecachrome unit. The Honda engine is now owned by Red Bull Powertrains. Ferrari is obviously Ferrari.

Until recently, the majority of F1 engines branding was just stickers. Companies like Cosworth, Mecachrome, Hart, Yamaha, Judd were the ones producing the majority of engines. Even the Ford V8s from the 60s through to the 90s were not really Fords.

F1 can survive perfectly fine without car manufacturers. It did so for 60 years as manufacturers came and went.

 

[Glideslope]

Proposed track layout for the 2026 Spanish GP in Madrid.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

You don't need road car manufacturers. Road car manufacturers are not the norm for engine development in F1 historys. The recent trend of everything needs a road car badge is just that - recent. And even then a lot of the current engines are strictly speaking not road car manufacturers and would be spun off again. Mercedes HPP is just Ilmor. Renault Sport F1 is a sticker for a Mecachrome unit. The Honda engine is now owned by Red Bull Powertrains. Ferrari is obviously Ferrari.

Until recently, the majority of F1 engines branding was just stickers. Companies like Cosworth, Mecachrome, Hart, Yamaha, Judd were the ones producing the majority of engines. Even the Ford V8s from the 60s through to the 90s were not really Fords.

F1 can survive perfectly fine without car manufacturers. It did so for 60 years as manufacturers came and went.

Indeed, certain tecnologies for the consumer sector are developed within F1, but the few manufacturers left (Mercedes, Ferrari, Alpine/Renault, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo, and McLaren) use it more as a marketing platform for their road car brand. The likes of Toyota, BMW and Honda left in a works capacity once the sport ceased being beneficial and engine regulations did not align with their consumer strategy. If F1 were to go electric, that results in Formula-E being disbanded too and personally I think there is a market for both series. Electric racing is important at the moment in helping companies develop battery and motor technologies, and the speed is impressive compared to ICE, but for me I want to see both co-exist.

I used like the TT Zero and having watched the evolution of this since it started in 2010, it was impressive to see how far motors and battery technolgies had evolved and quickly too. In its first year a bike could produce an average speed of 96.8mph but by 2019, the average speed rose to 121.9mph. Sadly spectators were not interested in almost silent motorbikes and it was dropped from the TT races, for which it was only a 1 lap event anyway. This for me backs up that engine noise and that sense of speed is important in racing. I also don't think we are ready for 20 lap Grand Prix at this level quite yet.

 

[headlessmike]

You don't need road car manufacturers. Road car manufacturers are not the norm for engine development in F1 historys. The recent trend of everything needs a road car badge is just that - recent. And even then a lot of the current engines are strictly speaking not road car manufacturers and would be spun off again. Mercedes HPP is just Ilmor. Renault Sport F1 is a sticker for a Mecachrome unit. The Honda engine is now owned by Red Bull Powertrains. Ferrari is obviously Ferrari.

Until recently, the majority of F1 engines branding was just stickers. Companies like Cosworth, Mecachrome, Hart, Yamaha, Judd were the ones producing the majority of engines. Even the Ford V8s from the 60s through to the 90s were not really Fords.

F1 can survive perfectly fine without car manufacturers. It did so for 60 years as manufacturers came and went.

You're right, but things would have to change substantially if we were to return to the old way. I'm not sure that any of the actual engine manufacturers still around today would survive for very long without corporate backing unless the budget for engines was cut by orders of magnitude.

 

[JustinePaula]

The characters we see in F1 are not new, they have been doing this for decades, some better than others, some flamboyant, others reserved, this all really goes back to the early days of US cinema, when it was the studios, MGM as 1 example that wanted movie stars to be bold/outrageous, a bit of scandal, the more the better.. Aspirational, living a bigger than life sort of public showing off, flaunt the wealth..

F1 has always been a more about the show than the action, it was always a billboard/advert for the best in technology/engineering, race Sunday/Sell Monday, so n so uses x or y oil, or fuel/tyres, you know what I am using in my car, so n so's oil/tyres/fuel..

In fact I was watching a youtuber on a sim racing game, I think it was Monaco from before the war, and man it was dull, no adverts, the adverts somehow make the track look better..Make up I guess for F1..Subconscious, it just looks better for the branding, than without..looks wrong naked..

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

If everyone is all about electric, why has F1 not been abandoned as a formula, why make plans for 2026? Why not just call 2025 the last season of F1, then from 2026, E-Prix is the new F1e???

FE is not quite where it needs to be to take over from F1. Top speeds aren't quite there yet, and battery life isn't either. That's why FE tracks are shorter and slower, as this favours the current tech. But huge advances have been made in the short time FE has existed; give it another 10 years and it'll be the top level motorsport.

Indeed, certain tecnologies for the consumer sector are developed within F1, but the few manufacturers left (Mercedes, Ferrari, Alpine/Renault, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo, and McLaren) use it more as a marketing platform for their road car brand.

F1 wouldn't exist if it wasn't such a lucrative marketing opportunity for big business. It literally only exists because it's so good in that respect. You have to remember that pretty much all the teams are ultimately owned by massive corporations; Fiat-Chrysler, Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi, Mercedes, and various investment companies. The days of the 'plucky privateers' are like 40+ years gone. The average F1 budget is orders of magnitude greater than what some F1 teams had to play with in the 70s and earlier. And most of those never lasted more than a few seasons anyway. Your rose-tinted view of F1 is just that; it's a mythical fairy tale that never really existed.

 

[Akrapovic]

You're right, but things would have to change substantially if we were to return to the old way. I'm not sure that any of the actual engine manufacturers still around today would survive for very long without corporate backing unless the budget for engines was cut by orders of magnitude.

Take away car manufacturers and the budgets go through the floor on their own.

Every series goes through this cycle. WRC did with Group B and Group A. Le Mans did with Group C, 90s GT1, LMP1. BTCC did with super tourers. DTM did multiple times.

If you regulate out road relevance then the road car manufacturers leave, teams are replaced with privateers, engines are replaced by Judds and Cosworths with stickers, and we carry on as before.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

If you regulate out road relevance then the road car manufacturers leave, teams are replaced with privateers, engines are replaced by Judds and Cosworths with stickers, and we carry on as before.

Sponsors leave, TV viewing figures plummet, and you're back to 2 men and a dog watching some slow cars go round a track on a wet afternoon in Northamptonshire.

And the car manufacturers will have come up with a new way of showcasing their products. F1 needs big business, not the other way round.

 

[headlessmike]

Take away car manufacturers and the budgets go through the floor on their own.

Every series goes through this cycle. WRC did with Group B and Group A. Le Mans did with Group C, 90s GT1, LMP1. BTCC did with super tourers. DTM did multiple times.

If you regulate out road relevance then the road car manufacturers leave, teams are replaced with privateers, engines are replaced by Judds and Cosworths with stickers, and we carry on as before.

Have these types of changes ever really been successful though (e.g., in reducing the reliance on manufacturers)? The top tier of WRC and WEC are still dominated by manufacturer. BTCC and DTM seem to have lost the international relevance that they once had and have been struggling on and off to just survive as series.

 

[Don Quixote]

View attachment 2321184

Proposed track layout for the 2026 Spanish GP in Madrid.

That is one long lap!