2023 Formula 1 Season thread

[Akrapovic]

I think this is a reference to last year, at Austin if I recall correctly. This year Max tried (although I think he was playing up for the radio, but have no evidence for that) to help Checo but he just can't keep up. Team orders would be entirely pointless, risky and a loose-loose for everyone.

Can you point to where there were team orders this year and where they were ignored?

There weren't team orders this year, but Perez wasn't really close enough to have team orders involved. But there was also the case of Max flat out refusing to help Checo because of what happened in Monaco.

This isn't a criticism of Max. All of the RBR drivers do it, and RBR are exceptionally bad at managing it. We can all look at Seb and Multi-21 but in reality that was just one of many incidents. Nobody talks about how Webber consistently ignored team orders, or how Danny was also against them.

It's a rolling theme with RBR. Most teams struggle to manage it. RBR are probably the worst of it.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

There has been attempts at team orders in RBR, but Max ignores them. So now they don't bother.

RBR has never been one to allow the drivers to race. Historically they've always told their drivers what to do, and they're very very bad at policing it. See Max v Danny, Seb v Webber.

I'm not sure this is anything more than a myth really. All teams have team orders to deliver the best possible result. Ferrari have historically favoured a No. 1 driver set up, and McLaren preferred to have two 'equal' drivers, but that didn't always work out (see 2007). So, different preferences. Max became quicker than Danny, Vettel was always faster than Webber. Perez has had ample opportunity to prove himself, and failed to because he lacks that 1% needed to become WC against a racer like Max. That's really all it is.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

I think this is a reference to last year, at Austin if I recall correctly. This year Max tried (although I think he was playing up for the radio, but have no evidence for that) to help Checo but he just can't keep up. Team orders would be entirely pointless, risky and a loose-loose for everyone.

Can you point to where there were team orders this year and where they were ignored?


Absolutely. LOL I just did the calculation for my wife's car a 476Hp EV which costs in fuel £364 per annum for 17K miles. Against my 510Hp ICE which costs in fuel £8.5K per annum for the same mileage. And some EVs can sound awesome as well. I'm all up for it.

As somene who has to use roads and pavements in built up areas, I welcome anything that makes vehicles quieter. I really don't get this obsession some have with loud noise. And every EV I've been in has had much better acceleration and braking than any ICE. Plus; car design has historically been limited by the need to put a big engine somewhere; EVs allow more freedom of design as electric motors and batteries can be placed more efficiently and discretely. Win-win.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I think Lewis tried to see if a seat was available at RB, is more likely. RB wouldn't want two tp level drivers to have to manage; it doesn't suit their ethos. Teams have often done better with one dominant driver. Perez just hasnt' been on it this season, is all.

I agree, everything points to it that it was Lewis's people making first contact. And understandbly so in my opinion. I mean he was until recently memory a winning driver, and even this year in that pos that the w14 is he performed admirably. I can totally understand he would want to win again, and with Mercedes that just isn't going to happen.

However I do think Mercedes are crazy still paying 55m for Lewis, he is good but his performance isn't that good. That is more than what Max is on. So 100m for two drivers, that is way too much for Red Bull. Based on his reputation as a racer, and the controversy by his stance's and behaviours, I would currently value him at 10M but realise that you'd have to pay say 20M to get him in a winning car. But Red Bull is his only option if he wants to win unfortunately for him, and that is not going to happen.

Thing is, who would be capable of even getting close to Max? The reality is that the RB is such an exact tool, that only someone like Max could get the most out of it. This is partly why Checo has struggled so much this season. Hamilton would struggle just as much, possibly more, as he isn't as adaptable to a car if it doesn't suit him 100%. Alonso might be good, he can get the most out of a car, but few drivers would be capable of driving that RB to its limit.

I don't wholly agree with you on that point; yes, Alonso could. But I do think Lewis could as well, he knows how to race, and he also knows how to communicate with the car. Whether he knows after being so long with Mercedes how to communicate with a Red Bull team, that remains to be seen.

Personally, I would have loved it if they became teammates, I think it would drive Max to even bigger heights. However unless Lewis is willing to reduce his salary demands and proof that he can do it, I can't see it happening.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

However I do think Mercedes are crazy still paying 55m for Lewis

He has to have enough money to buy all those clothes he wears... 🤣 And to fly his dog around the world on private jets. Yay, global warming ftw...

I don't wholly agree with you on that point; yes, Alonso could. But I do think Lewis could as well, he knows how to race, and he also knows how to communicate with the car.

Historically, he's always struggled with a car that doesn't suit his driving style. He was moaning earlier in the season about his driving position being too far forward or some other nonsense. He just cannot adapt to a car as well as other drivers. Alonso, like Senna and Vettel, can get great results in a supposedly inferior car. Max did in 2021. Lewis had the best car yet still failed. 🤷‍♂️ So I think he'd struggle a lot in the RB, then blame the car. That's his MO.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I’m afraid you are right about 2024. I suspect another borefest in terms of race wins and the title.

I think so too, but we can hope. The good thing about F1 is it does throw up a surprise, especially from a performance perspective and Mercedes have hinted they’ve found some additional speed in their 2024 car, time will tell and it’s all psychological gesturing until we actually see proof on the race track. I’d like to see McLaren maintain their momentum into next year. Got a feeling Piastri and Lando might get their first wins very soon.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I think so too, but we can hope. The good thing about F1 is it does throw up a surprise, especially from a performance perspective and Mercedes have hinted they’ve found some additional speed in their 2024 car, time will tell and it’s all psychological gesturing until we actually see proof on the race track. I’d like to see McLaren maintain their momentum into next year. Got a feeling Piastri and Lando might get their first wins very soon.

I think both McLaren drivers are good. As long as the car performance continues to improve they should pick up a win soon.

 

[Glideslope]

Thing is, who would be capable of even getting close to Max? The reality is that the RB is such an exact tool, that only someone like Max could get the most out of it. This is partly why Checo has struggled so much this season. Hamilton would struggle just as much, possibly more, as he isn't as adaptable to a car if it doesn't suit him 100%. Alonso might be good, he can get the most out of a car, but few drivers would be capable of driving that RB to its limit.

I agree. Toto touched on this the other day in an interview. While we all acknowledge the supremacy of the RB19 it really was about Max's ability to extract every ounce out of it.

The most striking ability of Max, IMO, was his ability to manage his tires this season. In the background behind all the other debates about performance this season were the struggles with tire deg. The tires were extremely sensitive on chassis setup to perform well or be lousy. Max nailed the setup for his tires to work every race except Singapore.

Hopefully Pirelli will bring a more robust tire for 24.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I think both McLaren drivers are good. As long as the car performance continues to improve they should pick up a win soon.

Not to mention Piastri made the best decision of his career dodging that Alpine seat. Many, including myself thought it was a risk as McLaren had seen a decline in 2022 compared to 2021 and Alpine were showing promise. If Otmar hadn’t kept him dangling with no decisions on his future, that discussion may never have happened.

I had to laugh at Horner squirming at the last race with his comment about Lewis showing interest in a seat at Red Bull. It may well have been true, but it’s one of those things that is largely confidential unless of course you’re a a smug and disingenuous personality like Horner. There were suggestions Verstappen had contacted Mercedes in 2020 for a potential drive, but it’s natural for drivers to put the feelers out, especially to better performing teams. I loved that Lewis denied it and then Horner and Marko had different versions of what happened. Marko saying it was one of Hamilton’s management team and Horner saying Anthony Hamilton lol. I know there is a general sense it didn’t happen at all and Horner had has pants pulled down trying to stir. All the psychological fun that comes with F1.

 

[CWallace]

I think Lewis tried to see if a seat was available at RB, is more likely. RB wouldn't want two top level drivers to have to manage; it doesn't suit their ethos. Teams have often done better with one dominant driver. Perez just hasn't been on it this season, is all.

What I hear is Lewis' father reached out to Christian Horner. Anthony Hamilton has not been Lewis' manager for some time, so Christian didn't really take it seriously. I figure if Lewis had any involvement in it, it was more as leverage with his talks with Mercedes than a serious interest in going to Red Bull and pairing with Max.

Thing is, who would be capable of even getting close to Max? The reality is that the RB is such an exact tool, that only someone like Max could get the most out of it.

Based on how quickly he adapted to the tricky McLaren, I would say Oscar Piastri might be able to get a handle on it.

I do not believe the RB19 is "custom-tailored" just for Max's driving style, but I do believe that because he has been able to get a handle on it and is so successful with it, Red Bull has not felt the need to try and make major changes to it for Checco's benefit for the fear of making the car worse (not just for Max, but for Checco, as well).

However I do think Mercedes are crazy still paying 55m for Lewis, he is good but his performance isn't that good.

The man is still a seven-time World Champion and has shown that he can still get results, even with a flawed car. I also expect a fair bit of that money is coming from sponsors (personal and team) and they see that level of promotional value in having him part of the team.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

He is, and always will be. And he did end up 3rd. Still, he hasn't won a race in ages, not even made many podiums. Which is amazing that he ended up 3rd, just shows how important consistency is.

Ultimately his contract was already negotiated, me personally don't think he is still worth it.

 

[CWallace]

On the subject of contacts, Charles LeClerc is said to have agreed to a five-year extension with Ferrari through 2029 that will see him earning USD 27 million to start with annual escalations to a final payout in 2029 of USD 54 million. The contract is said to also confirm "#1 Driver" status for LeClerc and offers an "escape clause" at the end of the 2027 season should Ferrari fail to meet certain performance criteria.

As for Sainz, he is trying to secure a two-year deal through the end of 2026, however Ferrari seems to be trying to secure Lando Norris and therefore only want to give Sainz a one-year contract through 2025, which is when Norris' current McLaren contract also expires.

 

[Apple fanboy]

On the subject of contacts, Charles LeClerc is said to have agreed to a five-year extension with Ferrari through 2029 that will see him earning USD 27 million to start with annual escalations to a final payout in 2029 of USD 54 million. The contract is said to also confirm "#1 Driver" status for LeClerc and offers an "escape clause" at the end of the 2027 season should Ferrari fail to meet certain performance criteria.

As for Sainz, he is trying to secure a two-year deal through the end of 2026, however Ferrari seems to be trying to secure Lando Norris and therefore only want to give Sainz a one-year contract through 2025, which is when Norris' current McLaren contract also expires.

Noris at Ferrari would destroy LeClerc IMO.

 

[CWallace]

Noris at Ferrari would destroy LeClerc IMO.

With the Japan upgrades, Ferrari finally gave LeClerc a car that fits his driving style and his qualifying and race performance improved massively so if they don't regress, LeClerc could be far stronger in 2024 then he was in 2023.

That being said, Norris has impressed very much in the McLaren so...

 

[Apple fanboy]

With the Japan upgrades, Ferrari finally gave LeClerc a car that fits his driving style and his qualifying and race performance improved massively so if they don't regress, LeClerc could be far stronger in 2024 then he was in 2023.

That being said, Norris has impressed very much in the McLaren so...

I just don't see LeClerc as being consistent as Norris. I think he is a better driver. Just needs that McLaren to improve a bit.

 

[pachyderm]

I just don't see LeClerc as being consistent as Norris. I think he is a better driver. Just needs that McLaren to improve a bit.

LeClerc is,IMHO, one of the most overrated and inconsistent drivers on the grid. But so is his team.

 

[Apple fanboy]

LeClerc is,IMHO, one of the most overrated and inconsistent drivers on the grid. But so is his team.

I tend to agree. I think there are better drivers on the grid.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

LeClerc is,IMHO, one of the most overrated and inconsistent drivers on the grid. But so is his team.

And that is what I find difficult to distinguish, is it Charles, or is it the team? Or is it the combination of them together. I get that it is nice for him to get such a long extension and earn decent money, but it doesn't look like a happy marriage...

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Noris at Ferrari would destroy LeClerc IMO.

It would also destroy Lando. He isn't a Ferrari driver...

 

[Glideslope]

And that is what I find difficult to distinguish, is it Charles, or is it the team? Or is it the combination of them together. I get that it is nice for him to get such a long extension and earn decent money, but it doesn't look like a happy marriage...

I think it’s a combination of the two as well. Charles can win in the right car. It just seems at Ferrari when the setup isn’t spot on he has a tendency to not know the limit, IMO.

Hopefully Ferrari will improve next season with consistency. It’s going to be tough though. I am glad to see Charles‘s rumored new contract though. I’ve always liked his passion for the drive. Even if it’s not alway in DRS range….

 

[pachyderm]

And that is what I find difficult to distinguish, is it Charles, or is it the team? Or is it the combination of them together. I get that it is nice for him to get such a long extension and earn decent money, but it doesn't look like a happy marriage...

Exactly!

 

[JustinePaula]

F1 is a sport that uses petrol in some form, it has a place, as does E-Prix, that uses petrol in some form or another.. But regardless, I don't think E-Prix will be as successful as a petrol engine formula.. Something about being a classic, the sound, the smell, the history, E-prix is more sterile, more devoid of that "x" factor.. I am all for an improved F1 season in 2026..

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

On the subject of contacts, Charles LeClerc is said to have agreed to a five-year extension with Ferrari through 2029 that will see him earning USD 27 million to start with annual escalations to a final payout in 2029 of USD 54 million. The contract is said to also confirm "#1 Driver" status for LeClerc and offers an "escape clause" at the end of the 2027 season should Ferrari fail to meet certain performance criteria.

As for Sainz, he is trying to secure a two-year deal through the end of 2026, however Ferrari seems to be trying to secure Lando Norris and therefore only want to give Sainz a one-year contract through 2025, which is when Norris' current McLaren contract also expires.

Lando will probably watch Ferrari’s development with interest, but McLaren have been the better team over the last season in terms of consistency and support, especially in the pits I would say. I really hope he doesn’t go to Ferrari, he’s better than that I’d say. Ferrari has underperformed and underachieved for 15 years straight and I can’t see them totally getting things together despite having a decent car.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

F1 is a sport that uses petrol in some form, it has a place, as does E-Prix, that uses petrol in some form or another.. But regardless, I don't think E-Prix will be as successful as a petrol engine formula.. Something about being a classic, the sound, the smell, the history, E-prix is more sterile, more devoid of that "x" factor.. I am all for an improved F1 season in 2026..

Sure, but the times move on. When we all drive EVs, then what is the point of F1 with ICE engines? There is already a classics, and just like the old classics go there, the current day cars will go there as well.

 

[Akrapovic]

Sure, but the times move on. When we all drive EVs, then what is the point of F1 with ICE engines? There is already a classics, and just like the old classics go there, the current day cars will go there as well.

We don't use wind powered ships anymore either, but sailing is popular.

Motorsport should stop trying to be road relevant and the problem goes away.