Not sure if those sources are maybe faulty or not, but there is nothing in either of the things I can see that backs up your claim of "plenty of European innovative tech companies".Are you for real? Plenty of European innovative tech companies. Your comment seems to be typical American view - we have all and others do not have anything. That's really out of reality. Did you travel to the Europe at least once?
Some source to back-up my claim https://finance.yahoo.com/news/20-most-innovative-companies-europe-201200980.html?guccounter=1
What are the 10 most innovative European companies?
Answer: In depends massively on how you define innovation, as you can see from three online lists that all ostensibly answer this question. The World's Most Innovative Companies by Forbes uses the concept of "Innovation Premium", calculated by comparing Net Present Value of cash flows from exist...www.quora.com
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Argues iMessage Isn't Popular Enough in the EU to Be Regulated
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
It does matter. I had phones with un-installable Facebook apps, yet I don't have an account. It doesn't make me a user.
I don't use iMessage, as in I don't send SMS messages and I never receive iMessage messages.
So perhaps my phone does have the capability (I don't remember any activation) but an iMessage user I am not and it would a factual error to consider me one.
The DMA threshold is 45,000,000 active end users and 10,000 active business users per year [Correction: per month], in addition to turnover requirements.
The rub really is how this will be calculated. Apple will likely argue that the determinant factor should be whether people actively use the service, in which case it quite clearly shows that most Apple users in the EU probably don't use iMessage if Apple thinks it shouldn't be covered.
However, the methodology set out in the Annex can, but doesn't necessarily mandate, such an approach. The wording of the DMA would probably also capture an approach that says as long as people are signed in, they are actively using the service. Since you have to opt out rather than opt in to iMessage there'd be a certain logic to saying that every active Apple device with iMessage turned on should count toward the cap. Apple, in turn, could easily remedy this just by making it opt in.
As a strong supporter of interoperability and someone who would like to see Apple adopt RCS or some other format to make messaging with Android using built in features more feature rich I'd obviously like to see iMessage opened up, but in fairness I think Apple has a point here and I long though that the focus (here, in MR) on iMessage as a target for the DMA was overblown.
In terms of messaging WhatsApp is the prize in the EU and, as an Apple user, it would actually be fantastic if I didn't have to install it.
The rub really is how this will be calculated. Apple will likely argue that the determinant factor should be whether people actively use the service, in which case it quite clearly shows that most Apple users in the EU probably don't use iMessage if Apple thinks it shouldn't be covered.
However, the methodology set out in the Annex can, but doesn't necessarily mandate, such an approach. The wording of the DMA would probably also capture an approach that says as long as people are signed in, they are actively using the service. Since you have to opt out rather than opt in to iMessage there'd be a certain logic to saying that every active Apple device with iMessage turned on should count toward the cap. Apple, in turn, could easily remedy this just by making it opt in.
As a strong supporter of interoperability and someone who would like to see Apple adopt RCS or some other format to make messaging with Android using built in features more feature rich I'd obviously like to see iMessage opened up, but in fairness I think Apple has a point here and I long though that the focus (here, in MR) on iMessage as a target for the DMA was overblown.
In terms of messaging WhatsApp is the prize in the EU and, as an Apple user, it would actually be fantastic if I didn't have to install it.
Last edited:
Well what do you expect? I use iMessage when I can, but when I can is only when talking to other people with iPhones. Most of my chat consequently happens on Discord or Signal (I don't use Meta products).
Make it cross platform Apple, for goodness sake. Do you really think people are buying iPhones so they can use iMessage to talk exclusively to other iPhone users?
Make it cross platform Apple, for goodness sake. Do you really think people are buying iPhones so they can use iMessage to talk exclusively to other iPhone users?
Which is correct, nobody uses iMessage over here. I only use them to send Messages with effects to people with iphones (about once a year on their birthday).
I mostly use Signal and Discord and unfortunately also get the occasional whatsapp from old folks and technophobes. (I hate that app with a passion, getting a whatsapp feels like getting spit on. But I can't get rid of it because of one freakin work related chatgroup)
I mostly use Signal and Discord and unfortunately also get the occasional whatsapp from old folks and technophobes. (I hate that app with a passion, getting a whatsapp feels like getting spit on. But I can't get rid of it because of one freakin work related chatgroup)
Yeah I'd consider tech company as what the majority of other people would consider a tech company. Companies you listed there are giant conglomerates with their fingers in dozens of pies. Companies on the list you shared include the likes of Shell, Axa, Mercedes Benz - not exactly tech companies.
This is true for the vast majority of iPhone users in Germany, in my experience. Messages is the SMS app, that's all.
iMessage is in such an awkward place as an iPhone-exclusive communication platform. I'm surprised it's popular even in the US, where iPhone usage is high (about two thirds?) but certainly not universal. It's so much better to have everyone on a single consistent app, where you don't have to worry about feature compatibility.
while i think that iMessage indeed is rather small in comparison to the top messaging apps, you should never take a company's word to be honest:
Amazon is trying to convince the EU on court at the moment, that it is not a large company and thus some new regulations do not apply to them.
I'm English too and use iMessage, lots of family and friends use it too. I also use WhatsApp (mainly cross platform group chats) and Telegram, occasionally Messenger.
All right. Fair enough.
So SAP, Prosus, Adyen, NXP Semiconductors, Infineon, STMicroelectronics, Ericsson for instance should be valid according to your own definition.
Bingo! If Signal could interop with WhatsApp, I would immediately uninstall WhatsApp.
There's Signal for more privacy.
I don't understand why my friends don't swich.
I'd love to ditch meta, but that would equal i stant kill of any social life I have.
You're in Europe? You have to get whatsapp
People don’t do that in Europe (except maybe some Scandinavian countries) and in most of the world. But in the US, they do.
The fact that Apple sees iMessage as a marketing tool for its product was documented in emails between executives released as part of a lawsuit.
As per a previous post of mine, I think not making iMessage interoperable in the EU will kill it in this region (assuming all other major messaging Apps indeed become interoperable). But this might be a price Apple is willing to pay because of the benefit they are getting for keeping it closed in the US (I know they could technically make it interoperable in the EU and keep it closed in the rest of the world, but IMO it would be unsustainable as many non-EU customers would keep asking why they can’t can the same feature and get really annoyed).
All tech companies should just leave that market all together. Let them feel the pressure from all of the people in those countries. No Windows, no macOS, no iOS, no Android. The only way to back them off is to leave.
Last edited:
All of your contacts really appreciate you handing over their phone numbers to Facebook. I guess privacy isn't so popular in EU?
The UK isn't part of the EU.
I agree those examples are bollocks and the person trying to defend them is embarrassing themselves (but then everyone on either side in a "my geopolitical designation is better than yours" pissing contest is embarrassing themselves).
The impression I get (and I'm in no way an expert so if you're after deep insight don't bother reading this) is that the reasons there are no tech giants in Europe isn't lack of innovation in Europe (I'm including the UK in that), or regulations in the EU, it's scale and culture.
Partly there isn't the same kind of capitalist culture in Europe so when innovation happens people are less likely to turn it into a big business. One gets the impression it's the dream of every American to run a company, that's just now how people think here.
And partly there's size of market. The USA is one huge market, with one language, one dominant culture, and to a large extent one regulatory regime (true, there are state regulations to consider). The EU is a far cry from that. It's still a collection of different countries with different cultures, languages and laws. The EU level regulations will be least of your concerns when you're thinking about expanding your business into 49 other countries. If anything I bet you'd wish everything was done at that level. And I'm told the single market for services is even less cohesive than for physical goods. And of course not every country in Europe is part of the single market (Britain isn't, for example).
And finally of course there's state intervention. You may think the EU is heavy handed but the US is actually quite active in industrial policy - it pumps money into many industries to help the US be dominant in them, and I suspect the US wouldn't have allowed a company like ARM to be sold abroad like the UK did.
Last edited:
Surprised by some of these comments. WhatsApp does have the ability to span iPhone and Android which is a major plus but being better than iMessage? Not in my opinion, iMessage is a far better experience and anyone I know with an iPhone which is almost everyone I know uses iMessage. They might not know it's called iMessage of course, plenty of non-techies out there that wouldn't know this but just that they message using messages on an iPhone.
Obviously if the UK was still in the EU this would be higher as it's roughly 50 / 50 between iPhone and Android shipments here. iPhones for the wealthy south and Android's for the poor north 😉 Ah just kidding my fellow Brits.
Obviously if the UK was still in the EU this would be higher as it's roughly 50 / 50 between iPhone and Android shipments here. iPhones for the wealthy south and Android's for the poor north 😉 Ah just kidding my fellow Brits.
Yeah, I remember that leak. It's an interesting situation that isn't it? Since iMessage doesn't do anything the other messaging platforms don't do its only benefit* is linking with people who already use it (and only it), so keeping it exclusive can only be a benefit when it's already dominant in the market, by definition it can't help you grow market share from a low base because in such a market it's one big benefit cannot exist.
I still have a hard time believing it. Just how dominant is iOS in the US? Even if only a third of people have Android phones that still makes it very likely that most people will communicate with an Android user and will therefore have a service other than iMessage on their phones, in which case you can safely buy an Android phone and know you'll be able to communicate with everyone you know, so how does it help sell iPhone?
*OK, there's the additional benefit of having a UI you might prefer, but that's very minor to the point of being negligible compared to its ability to actually connect with people
How's that? What does it offer to make it a "far better experience"? Is it making the user into a monkey, with those "me-mojies" that you find extraordinary? Sounds like hyperbole to me.
I've used a number of chat apps and they're very similar. If anything, WhatsApp seems better for sending documents between people and it's easy to find them later.