Apple CEO Tim Cook Urges U.S. Senate to Pass the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act

[kingtj]

I agree with part of what you said, although I'm not sure the "self segregation" of ethnic groups is really a major explanation of the problem?

If you actually come to America with the intention of working at a career type job, you're probably getting hired into an environment where you can't segregate yourself. You might choose to live around only other immigrants of your same nationality, but the workplace is going to be a mish-mash of people who are forced to spend at least 8 hours a day together, under the same roof.

It's always been the case that most of the time, people prefer to reside around others who are more like themselves than different. I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri -- and to this day, it still has an Italian neighborhood, and a German neighborhood, and even a small area one could call a "Chinatown" (though the Asian population there isn't big enough to sustain the kind of Chinatown districts you see in places like New York, DC or Chicago). Those are holdouts from immigration that happened long ago.

Where it becomes a problem is when groups come here with the wrong motivation. If you're coming to America because you really view it as the "land of opportunity", where you can find a good paying job doing something you enjoy doing? You should do well here and be welcome here, even if you try to live in a community full of others from your home country. Others come here with intentions of slowly taking over America -- forcing cities and towns to "do things their way" as they get enough of their own people to move there. (Hint: If it's a big deal for you to keep flying the flag of your home country after you immigrate here? You *may* not be here for the right reasons. Why aren't you back home, contributing to make your home country a better place, if you're so proud of it?)

Immigrants don’t make our country stronger because we live in the age of identity politics. Ethnic groups self segregate. There is no longer any force compelling them to integrate. So we end up with groups who aren’t a real part of the whole and who in fact express great animosity to their hosts. That is a real big negative.

 

[Khedron]

What does that even mean?

Dynamic economy means no job security

 

[Chaos215bar2]

Are you suggesting only people with particular experiences can have opinions?

Most poor people are poor because of their poor decisions. Certainly there are many poor people who work hard to succeed and do.

Yes, I am saying by making life harder people work harder. That is a simple fact of human nature. We see it in the rich and poor. Plenty of rich kids don’t work hard because they don’t have to.

What I'm suggesting is that you don't have the experience to back up the claims you're making, and you're simply parroting conservative talking points.

Telling someone to work harder to improve their situation doesn't do much when they're already spending every free moment working multiple low wage jobs just to survive. Certainly incentives are needed, but you also need a social safety net in place for someone in this position to have any chance of actually engaging in the self-improvement needed to get themselves out of this situation.

Most immigrants includes illegals. Illegals are a horrible drain on our economy. They commit a considerable amount of crime. They tend to have lots of children who are very costly to tax payers. Educating one child costs at least $10,000 a year. An immigrant with three kids making $30,000 isn’t paying his way in just school related taxes even if he paid all he made in taxes.

Immigrants don’t make our country stronger because we live in the age of identity politics. Ethnic groups self segregate. There is no longer any force compelling them to integrate. So we end up with groups who aren’t a real part of the whole and who in fact express great animosity to their hosts. That is a real big negative.

Identity politics is certainly a problem (look in the mirror, perhaps?), but I'll be honest, I don't know a single immigrant who engages in the sort of behavior you're describing (and I know many). Again though, you're begging the question and basing your conclusions off of false premises.

Immigrants, in general, are responsible for less crime than native citizens in the US. And while I don't have specific data, the fact that for someone who immigrated illegally, merely being arrested is a good way to get deported seems like a pretty good disincentive to commit crime.

And education? Maybe looking at education as a $10,000 per child per year money sink is part of the reason companies have a hard time finding certain skillsets in US citizens. (No, we're not talking about your average IT worker. We're talking about skillsets that take years of intensive study to develop.) These (all kids in the US education system, not just immigrants) are the people who we should be looking at to fill these positions, but instead we're busy trying to figure out how not to pay for their education and/or how to send them back to "their" country now that we already have paid.

 

[siddavis]

Are you suggesting only people with particular experiences can have opinions?

Most poor people are poor because of their poor decisions. Certainly there are many poor people who work hard to succeed and do.

Yes, I am saying by making life harder people work harder. That is a simple fact of human nature. We see it in the rich and poor. Plenty of rich kids don’t work hard because they don’t have to.



Most immigrants includes illegals. Illegals are a horrible drain on our economy. They commit a considerable amount of crime. They tend to have lots of children who are very costly to tax payers. Educating one child costs at least $10,000 a year. An immigrant with three kids making $30,000 isn’t paying his way in just school related taxes even if he paid all he made in taxes.

Immigrants don’t make our country stronger because we live in the age of identity politics. Ethnic groups self segregate. There is no longer any force compelling them to integrate. So we end up with groups who aren’t a real part of the whole and who in fact express great animosity to their hosts. That is a real big negative.

This so many times over. The lack of desire for some that seek immigration to embrace Americanism is a real problem. An even bigger problem is a system that doesn't care if the prospective immigrant has any desire to integrate.

 

[Chaos215bar2]

That's a lie.

There are plenty of skilled workers here but Americans won't work for Indian immigrant wages nor will they accept the kind of treatment immigrants fearful of deportation will accept.

No, this is a claim supported by years of experience. The problem you're worried about exists (though I haven't seen or heard of a single instance anywhere near as severe as what a lot of posters here seem to believe), but that doesn't mean that the opposite isn't also true when you're actually talking about top tier skillsets.

 

[neliason]

What I'm suggesting is that you don't have the experience to back up the claims you're making, and you're simply parroting conservative talking points.

You have no idea what experience I have. That you’d try to dismiss my ideas based on somethign you can’t possibly know (what my experience is) suggests you aren’t addressing arguments. To suggest these are ‘conservative talking points’ further affirms that. I have no idea whether these are conservative talking points. But if they are their truth doesn’t depend on who makes the point but the quality of the point.

 

[Naraxus]

**** you Tinkerbell. You have the absolute nerve to lecture US lawmakers on policy regarding illegal aliens but happily get on your knees to China when they frown. ****ing coward

 

[Chaos215bar2]

This so many times over. The lack of desire for some that seek immigration to embrace Americanism is a real problem. An even bigger problem is a system that doesn't care if the prospective immigrant has any desire to integrate.

How do you define "Americanism", and what does "integration" mean to you? Attending gatherings you support and agreeing with your particular point of view?

If so, that sure sounds pretty un-American to me.

 

[Naraxus]

Yes, when it has to do with matters concerning Apple, as any other CEO would for the company and employees they're responsible for.

You disingenuously left out that crucial aspect.

What a shocker. You rush in to defend Apple no matter what. Talk about disingenuousness...

 

[Chaos215bar2]

You have no idea what experience I have. That you’d try to dismiss my ideas based on somethign you can’t possibly know (what my experience is) suggests you aren’t addressing arguments. To suggest these are ‘conservative talking points’ further affirms that. I have no idea whether these are conservative talking points. But if they are their truth doesn’t depend on who makes the point but the quality of the point.

Did you intend to actually respond to my post, or just deflect and reassert claims with no basis in fact?

Do you actually know people living in poverty within the US? Have you asked them how they ended up that way and why they haven't gotten themselves out of the situation? Have you even read articles where the reporter spoke with people in this position? Listened to TV or radio programs? Anything? (And if you did, did you listen, or just come in with your preconceived notions and write the entire situation off?)

Certainly people do this by choice, but in my experience that's exceedingly rare. The problem is that there are already too few resources in place to support these people in helping themselves, not that the resources available encourage people to just give up on society and fall into poverty.

 

[siddavis]

What I'm suggesting is that you don't have the experience to back up the claims you're making, and you're simply parroting conservative talking points.

Telling someone to work harder to improve their situation doesn't do much when they're already spending every free moment working multiple low wage jobs just to survive. Certainly incentives are needed, but you also need a social safety net in place for someone in this position to have any chance of actually engaging in the self-improvement needed to get themselves out of this situation.



Identity politics is certainly a problem (look in the mirror, perhaps?), but I'll be honest, I don't know a single immigrant who engages in the sort of behavior you're describing (and I know many). Again though, you're begging the question and basing your conclusions off of false premises.

Immigrants, in general, are responsible for less crime than native citizens in the US. And while I don't have specific data, the fact that for someone who immigrated illegally, merely being arrested is a good way to get deported seems like a pretty good disincentive to commit crime.

And education? Maybe looking at education as a $10,000 per child per year money sink is part of the reason companies have a hard time finding certain skillsets in US citizens. (No, we're not talking about your average IT worker. We're talking about skillsets that take years of intensive study to develop.) These (all kids in the US education system, not just immigrants) are the people who we should be looking at to fill these positions, but instead we're busy trying to figure out how not to pay for their education and/or how to send them back to "their" country now that we already have paid.

No, he's parroting common sense and the understanding of human nature. As an example, I just had parent teacher conferences for my 4th grader and we discussed homework and just how much I should be involved with it. He's at a point now where he needs to learn self reliance, but I am actually holding that back by correcting every mistake. He can actually blow through his assignments and make every last lazy error knowing that he has a crutch. It's time for me to start letting him feel the pain of failures so that he can take responsibility and get stronger for it. When your safety nets become the way of life for people, it has become an abused crutch. Unfortunately some politicians benefit from this perpetual reliance.

Education... is there something factually incorrect about the $10k figure? Seems pretty moderate to me. Nobody is trying to figure out how not to pay for citizens' educations. There is plenty of money there. The problem is the subject matter and results. These kids will spend countless hours talking about how different they all are and engage in soft science. As another example from my 4th grader, he has spent an entire chapter and a good part of the first quarter learning about how bad fossil fuels are in his "science" class. His social studies class is riddled with this too. THIS is the great foundation he gets to build upon to become STEM literate. We all have every right to question what is being taught and certainly WHO gets to partake in this free (and mandatory) education.

 

[siddavis]

You Trump supporters never dig too deep into these issues, and yet you're so quick to chime in like you know what you're talking about.

Trump has drastically reduced LEGAL immigration too, which is affecting businesses looking for workers with certain skills which aren't as easy to find in the U.S because college isn't government funded like it is in other countries.

College isn't government funded?! Are you out of your mind? The primary reason we are in a student loan crisis is because the government got involved. Also, have you ever been even curious as to why in state tuition is lower than out of state? Might want to look that up.

 

[dblissmn]

All those of you opposing Cook had better be careful what you wish for; there is a serious shortage of STEM graduates from universities and colleges in the US, and if it isn't resolved, more production will be outsourced to other countries with better supplies of labor.

Anything that gets more highly qualified immigrants to move here and, very importantly, stay here and become citizens here, is going to lead to economic growth and not negatively impact anyone's pay but more likely boost pay and opportunity for all.

What you all need to be watchful about is guest worker programs (e.g. work visas) that are for a few years and then the worker goes back to their original country. Those are the programs that carry a high risk of undermining pay of US workers because they allow US corporations to use short-term measures and "next quarter" kinds of thinking to avoid having to recruit more aggressively and pay better.

 

[california_kid]

I would totally subscript to Apple TV if they started an original series "Cook-ing with Tim". Wonder what this guy's diet is. Looks to be in good health.

 

[Anarchy99]

how did you come to the conclusion that "most" immigrants are a net negative to the US? Just about every actual statistic I've seen suggests otherwise.

my guess is something like This
he could have but he used actual government statistical data, or other independent reports though im just guessing.

actual data doesn't support what you claim.
only opinion pieces and activist articles that use emotion over factual data claim otherwise.

 

[siddavis]

Which one of the examples that I provided of the administration targeting people who were using legal routes to either enter the country or remain in the country is incorrect?

"Targeting people"
No, targeting the nonsensical policies. Chain migration - 1 person is qualified to enter, therefore 10 others get to as well regardless of their situations or desires to integrate. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[DVD9]

All those of you opposing Cook had better be careful what you wish for; there is a serious shortage of STEM graduates from universities and colleges in the US, and if it isn't resolved, more production will be outsourced to other countries with better supplies of labor.

This is a LIE.

There are tens of thousands of STEM graduates looking for work but Apple and others do not want to hire them because they don't work cheap and they expect first world treatment on the job.

Indian immigrants do whatever they are told always fearful of deportation if they do not.

Apple wants slave labor.

 

[lartola]

He just wants cheap foreign labor. He can hire plenty of American citizens but he knows he will have to pay more for their labor.

Foreign labor isn’t supposed to be cheap unless it’s an undocumented immigrant being hired (which is illegal). By law, anyone who legally entered and is authorized to work in the US, such as permanent residents or H1 visa holders, is entitled to receive from an employer the same compensation a US citizen would receive for the job they are hired to do. And if that’s not happening and legal foreign workers are getting paid less than US Citizens for the same job, it is the employers that need to be punished because they’re breaking the law and not the immigrants, who are the only ones actually being punished by the government limiting the available number of work visas.

 

[Chaos215bar2]

No, he's parroting common sense and the understanding of human nature. As an example, I just had parent teacher conferences for my 4th grader and we discussed homework and just how much I should be involved with it. He's at a point now where he needs to learn self reliance, but I am actually holding that back by correcting every mistake. He can actually blow through his assignments and make every last lazy error knowing that he has a crutch. It's time for me to start letting him feel the pain of failures so that he can take responsibility and get stronger for it. When your safety nets become the way of life for people, it has become an abused crutch. Unfortunately some politicians benefit from this perpetual reliance.

Now, what would happen if you started taking away support for the basic life needs of your 4th grader? Do you think they'd do well in school, learn, and get a good job down the line? Or would they put all their time and energy into doing what little they could to support themselves and end up barely scraping by? This is actually a great example, because it succinctly demonstrates both what a safety net should be, and why much of what we have now isn't sufficient.

Universal basic income is a whole other beast, but aside from that, no one wants to create safety nets that offer a way of life. The fact that people end up in this situation just speaks to the fact that these programs are frequently underfunded or just poorly designed to the point that all they're sometimes able to do is help people scrape by, thus further taxing the system, rather than getting people to the point that they're actually self sufficient.

Education... is there something factually incorrect about the $10k figure? Seems pretty moderate to me. Nobody is trying to figure out how not to pay for citizens' educations. There is plenty of money there. The problem is the subject matter and results. These kids will spend countless hours talking about how different they all are and engage in soft science. As another example from my 4th grader, he has spent an entire chapter and a good part of the first quarter learning about how bad fossil fuels are in his "science" class. His social studies class is riddled with this too. THIS is the great foundation he gets to build upon to become STEM literate. We all have every right to question what is being taught and certainly WHO gets to partake in this free (and mandatory) education.

I never said anything one way or the other about that figure, and honestly $10k sounds like a great deal for a year of education. What I was arguing is that this should not be seen as a drain on society, but as a means towards future economic prosperity. Too often what that $10k per year (or whatever the cost may be) gets us is not the independent, critically thinking adult most higher paying jobs require, and that's a direct result of undervaluing both education itself and those who educate our children.

Your examples are interesting. Learning to understand how people are different (and how they're the same) seems like a pretty important topic to be covering for a 4th grader. (After all, how can we expect to have a cohesive society if people can't look at things from other points of view.) Admittedly an entire chapter on the evils of fossil fuels, if accurate, is probably a bit much for 4th grade, but it's really hard to judge one way or another without more specifics.

 

[JagdTiger]

Very plainly a plan to brain drain other nations and reduce wages. Shame.

Yeah and putting American workers out work.

 

[siddavis]

How do you define "Americanism", and what does "integration" mean to you? Attending gatherings you support and agreeing with your particular point of view?

If so, that sure sounds pretty un-American to me.

Well, in two words - individual liberty. But I don't have to define it, it has already been perfected in the Declaration of Independence and subsequently outlined in the Constitution aimed at limiting government, protecting private property rights and thus economic and political liberty (natural law and the understanding that these rights are not granted by government and therefore cannot be taken away by government). Too many citizens already don't embrace this. It's even worse that we don't care to understand if potential citizens embrace this.

 

[lartola]

This is a LIE.

There are tens of thousands of STEM graduates looking for work but Apple and others do not want to hire them because they don't work cheap and they expect first world treatment on the job.

Indian immigrants do whatever they are told always fearful of deportation if they do not.

Apple wants slave labor.

The part on the slave labor is what’s a blatant lie. By law, everyone working legally in the US -LEGALLY, which excludes the undocumented immigrants from Mexico and Central America-, US Citizens or not, is entitled to be paid the same wage for a specific job. If any employer is paying less to an H1 visa worker or permanent resident than they would pay a US Citizen for the same job, they’re breaking the law. If so, it is the employer who should be punished, not the potential workers. Limiting the number of available visas only punishes the potential immigrant workers, who are not at fault for what employers do. They are abiding by the law, they are trying to enter the country legally to earn a living....and they’re the ones who get punished for what greedy employers do? it’s not very fair.

 

[siddavis]

Now, what would happen if you started taking away support for the basic life needs of your 4th grader? Do you think they'd do well in school, learn, and get a good job down the line? Or would they put all their time and energy into doing what little they could to support themselves and end up barely scraping by? This is actually a great example, because it succinctly demonstrates both what a safety net should be, and why much of what we have now isn't sufficient.

Universal basic income is a whole other beast, but aside from that, no one wants to create safety nets that offer a way of life. The fact that people end up in this situation just speaks to the fact that these programs are frequently underfunded or just poorly designed to the point that all they're sometimes able to do is help people scrape by, thus further taxing the system, rather than getting people to the point that they're actually self sufficient.

Underfunded? Really? Have you seen the national debt? The government should not be there to raise my 4th grader, that's the point. My example was to demonstrate at the basic level our human nature to simply let go of personal responsibility if there is always something there to catch you when you fall (safety net).

 

[Chaos215bar2]

Well, in two words - individual liberty. But I don't have to define it, it has already been perfected in the Declaration of Independence and subsequently outlined in the Constitution aimed at limiting government, protecting private property rights and thus economic and political liberty (natural law and the understanding that these rights are not granted by government and therefore cannot be taken away by government). Too many citizens already don't embrace this. It's even worse that we don't care to understand if potential citizens embrace this.

I think most would agree with your premise, but it still sounds like you're picking a very specific interpretation and expecting everyone to agree. (Keep in mind that if the constitution were anywhere near as explicitly worded as you're suggesting, the entire area of constitutional law would, mostly, not be a thing.) Without evidence, the claim that any significant proportion of the immigrant population does not care about liberty and/or property rights (which are not the same thing, by the way) is more than a little far-fetched.

 

[siddavis]

I never said anything one way or the other about that figure, and honestly $10k sounds like a great deal for a year of education. What I was arguing is that this should not be seen as a drain on society, but as a means towards future economic prosperity. Too often what that $10k per year (or whatever the cost may be) gets us is not the independent, critically thinking adult most higher paying jobs require, and that's a direct result of undervaluing both education itself and those who educate our children.

Your examples are interesting. Learning to understand how people are different (and how they're the same) seems like a pretty important topic to be covering for a 4th grader. (After all, how can we expect to have a cohesive society if people can't look at things from other points of view.) Admittedly an entire chapter on the evils of fossil fuels, if accurate, is probably a bit much for 4th grade, but it's really hard to judge one way or another without more specifics.

On your first paragraph, we agree mostly except that I am not paying taxes to "invest" in people who are here illegally.

Of course, you don't have any context as to my point about the class focus on celebrating people's differences. What I really mean is that it is overbearing and constant to the point that it crowds out other learning opportunities. In this thread we are discussing the availability of technically proficient workers. I just don't see the value of let's say 3 out of 5 days a week devoted to this type of learning. Then, we complain that our kids are lagging in science and math skills. Why wouldn't they be when the classes that are supposed to be teaching critical thinking and the scientific approach are instead focused on indoctrination? Oh, and I am compelled by government force to pay for this!