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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
Doctors, nurses, dentists, lab workers, semi-conductor workers, etc. wear masks for many hours a day. And in some countries in Asia, they are fashion statements for kids and young adults.
Did I say it’s impossible for anyone? I said I can’t. Not sure why this needs to turn into a “yes you can” discussion. You know me and my breathing?

I’m not a doctor, or a nurse, or a dentist.
 
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4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
No, actually I don't. I could be 100% certain I would not infect an old person with complications if I moved to the middle of Antarctica. I'm not morally obligated to do that. Why? Because LIVING everyday is a risk/benefit calculation. You have decided for yourself that it is best to stay inside a hermetically sealed bottle. That's fine. Just don't tell the rest of the world that they are subhuman for not doing the same. I'll do what I can within reason to get along with this virus among us.
Actually, telling the rest of the world is the American way. We just need to make the individual risk sufficient to encourage people to not actively harm others.
 
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4jasontv

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Jul 31, 2011
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Did I say it’s impossible for anyone? I said I can’t. Not sure why this needs to turn into a “yes you can” discussion. You know me and my breathing?

I’m not a doctor, or a nurse, or a dentist.
Do you not have ears? Of course you can. You just don't want to. It's ok for you to be uncomfortable until you get used to it.
 
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siddavis

macrumors 6502a
Feb 23, 2009
863
2,905
Not having things doesn't mean they are suffering. Quality of life is not defined by how much stuff we have.
You mean like energy, food, water?
And what is quality of life defined by? Sealing yourself off from contact with the outside world? You do you...
 
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buckwheet

macrumors 6502
Mar 30, 2014
454
499
Agree with mask wearing. Especially in Asia. A lot has to do with Asian shame culture. If you due to lack of conforming by wearing a mask, infect someone else, with your cold you are not a clean person. You are dirty and some people will not want associate (be friends with you, work with, or hire) with you.

Same with theft. If you take something that does not belong to you, you are a thief and your children are children of a thief, etc. It will impact your day-to-day life. This is why in Japan (and some other Asian countries) at a mall in the food court you can hold your table by leaving your packages and wander off to browse the food. No one would dare take them.
I should mention that I only know about this from living in Vancouver, where we have a large Asian community and it's always been common to see them in masks during flu season. I didn't understand it when I was younger, and thought they were just germaphobes, or something! Haha... ignorant Canadian. A Japanese friend of mine let me know what was going on. It makes a lot of sense and I think/hope we'll see that practice in most countries going forward.

Of course, it would be better to exchange shame for conscientiousness... But hey, if the end result is the same, then I guess that's okay.
 

4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
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You mean like energy, food, water?
And what is quality of life defined by? Sealing yourself off from contact with the outside world? You do you...
You don't need energy many people live their whole life without even having a roof let alone heat or a car. And you can get food and water. It doesn't need to be ideal or have flavor.
 
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MisterSavage

macrumors 601
Nov 10, 2018
4,651
5,495
I work in tech. I've gotten a dozen interview offers in the last 3 months. Not a single company is requiring being in an office at all.

So do I and that's great to hear. The last two years have taught me that I was made for WFH. If my company eventually tries to push us back to the office I'm out.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
Do you not have ears? Of course you can. You just don't want to. It's ok for you to be uncomfortable until you get used to it.
People have Tinnitus and other ear conditions that might make some things uncomfortable or difficult compared to others.
 

4jasontv

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Jul 31, 2011
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People have Tinnitus and other ear conditions that might make some things uncomfortable or difficult compared to others.
I have never heard of tinnitus making someone unable to wear a facemask. Being uncomfortable isn't enough, it needs to prevent them from wearing it.
 

siddavis

macrumors 6502a
Feb 23, 2009
863
2,905
You don't need energy many people live their whole life without even having a roof let alone heat or a car. And you can get food and water. It doesn't need to be ideal or have flavor.
Then I can certainly consider a mask a luxury.
 

darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,110
9,765
Atlanta, GA
The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to the current “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”

Like I said, I guess that's just me clinging to the old use of the term... back when they provided immunity.
They both basically say the same thing; the second is more accurate because it describes how vaccines work. The original definition is a bit misleading because "produce immunity" implies 100% resistance and we know that some people only get partial immunity from a vaccine.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
I have never heard of tinnitus making someone unable to wear a facemask. Being uncomfortable isn't enough, it needs to prevent them from wearing it.
You brought up ears, so I mentioned a medical condition that impacts ears.

I am not going into technicalities of "can" and "cant" here. I am SO unbelievably uncomfortable that I actually NEED to GET OUT OF THE STORE NOW after about 30 minutes. I am not held at gunpoint here, therefore technicalities aside I "cannot" wear a mask for more than 30 minutes.

People “can” do a lot of stuff in certain situations that they normally “can’t” do. So stop with the technicalities here.
 
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4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
You brought up ears, so I mentioned a medical condition that impacts ears.

I am not going into technicalities of "can" and "cant" here. I am SO unbelievably uncomfortable that I actually NEED to GET OUT OF THE STORE NOW after about 30 minutes. I am not held at gunpoint here, therefore technicalities aside I "cannot" wear a mask for more than 30 minutes.

People “can” do a lot of stuff in certain situations that they normally “can’t” do. So stop with the technicalities here.
If you are saying you have to leave after 30 minutes, that's fine. I get that. But that's very different than claiming you should stay but not wear a mask.
 

bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2017
2,223
2,641
If your company is heavily reliant on ‘serendipitous encounters’ in the office to come up with new ideas, you’re either:

  1. In big trouble (Wall Street: ‘what’s your product strategy?’, CEO: ‘Not sure, but our employees will spontaneously work something out in impromptu meetings, I’m sure of it.’
  2. Lying through your teeth
Additionally, If your company feels that your meetings are only productive if everyone is in the same room ie so managers can use use force of personality / NLP techniques, that’s a really key sign that your culture is bad IMHO.

Finally, as a Silicon Valley outsider, it’s just very odd to see many of its big companies demanding that their people come into the office, whilst spending lots of time in their keynotes extolling products that make remote work easier.
 
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macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,187
19,795
Really outdated thinking from Apple for the vast majority of positions that don't involve directly engineering hardware in test chambers or using other specialized equipment or don't require on-site work for manufacturing.

Not being nimble about something like this is how a company that seemed so sturdy could suddenly crumble if there are tons of remote jobs elsewhere. Why stay at Apple? Especially given some of the concerns that employees have brought up in recent years. Seems kinda hostile at times.

More companies also need to move to four day work weeks. I've noticed that my weekdays fly by now and my weekends drag on I have so much time to do everything. It's amazing. And working remotely I don't have to spend hours in my car and waste lots of gas and mess up the environment. Get with the times, Apple. It's not like your multi billion dollar spaceship hasn't already been paid for multiple times over by now. You guys are filthy rich. Let the workers work how they want. If they don't get the work done just fire them like you do any employee not working.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
If you are saying you have to leave after 30 minutes, that's fine. I get that. But that's very different than claiming you should stay but not wear a mask.
And that’s why I said I can’t have it on for more than 30 minutes. Again stop with the technicalities. You don’t know my health situation and how I need to breathe. The human body can handle it, but not every person.
 
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4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
And that’s why I said I can’t have it on for more than 30 minutes. Again stop with the technicalities. You don’t know my health situation and how I need to breathe. The human body can handle it, but not every person.
I’m not saying I know your health situation. I’m saying if you can’t breath we need to help protect you and other with similar concerns. If that means some people can’t attend some activities or visit some locations you understand some people will be excluded. Just like we prevent people over a certain weight or under a certain size from going on some amusement rides, some people can’t go to a movie or fly in a plane.
 

leicaman

macrumors 6502
Jul 22, 2002
276
226
Carlsbad, CA
I know if I had built such building at the enormous costs and effort this one required, I'd pretty much feel frustrated that its so little utilized. If I was an Apple employee, I'd want to be there all the time. But then I don't think I would worry too much about covid there, pretty nicely ventilated I'm sure.
 

sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,863
2,874
The market will sort this out...and by that I mean, the top tech talent will likely go where there is flexibility that rewards their talent and productive output.

Companies like AirBNB appear to have it right, at least for now (work from anywhere, no pay cut).
Yep, exactly, this market has always been supply and demand.

Covid has simply ingrained the idea that working from home is a realistic condition that they can expect. Some will offer it, some won't, some will want it, some won't care. I, for one, am truly stoked it's now a dominantly common condition, as I plan to set myself up to be able to work from anywhere in the world that my laptop is, and live in multiple locations at various times of the year.
 

sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,863
2,874
Why the need for the centralized policy? Why don’t they let the group leaders decide who needs to come in and when.
Why would the top level control freak give up his control freaky power, and let the group leaders have that control freaky power instead? That's not how control freaks work :D
 
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