Apple Employees Reportedly Petitioning Against Plan to Return to Office 3x Per Week

[steve09090]

It’s hard to reason with you because you keep moving the goalposts. A person who is employed as a servant, IS a servant. A Public Servant is an idiom - it has nothing to do with being a servant. Employees of a company are not servants. I wonder if you own a small company and think that your employees are your servants? Did you travel to the 21st century from 200 years ago?

Goalposts? I’m not the one who raised slavery 🙄

You’ve got the definition wrong. There is a servant that is position of employment, like being an architect or a whatever. And there is a servant which is the same meaning as the term employee. I can’t help it if you're having trouble with the English language (kids these days…).

And no goal posts being moved. An employee (or servant of the company or whatever you feel is right for your mood) is told they need to be in the office, then that’s where they need to be. If you can negotiate for any or all of your time to work from home, then thats also great.

What is so hard about that? There are many reasons (that people will ignore because it doesn’t suit their bias) why an employer requires a person to work on site (office or whatever) and even some reasons why working from home is better. Are you just being obstructive or do you not actually understand?

 

[steve09090]

I just told you that the company is getting rid of office spaces and NONE of my coworkers work from the office anymore. Everyone is 100% remote, and I haven’t heard anyone asking for a desk at an office. No one wants to waste their lives in traffic. We all see each other and talk to each other and text to each other multiple times per day over web collaboration tools. In the meantime, we pay for our own offices, our own desks, our own air conditioning, our own coffee, our own monitors, chairs, electricity, we clean our own rooms, we pay for pest control, etc. The employer issues laptops and pays for the collaboration tools and other software. The company is saving tens of millions of dollars, and people don’t waste company money chatting at a coffee machine for hours instead of doing work, so they are a lot more productive. No one makes anyone sit in the chair for 8 hours. No one cares how many hours you work as long as you do the work assigned to you. No one cares which hours of day or night you choose to do your work. You do have to be on scheduled meetings, but the rest of the day you can work whenever you want. What matters is how you accomplish the work and not how many hours you are warming the chair or what hours of the day you choose to do you work - be it day or night. It’s your choice. Only responsible adults can work remotely. Those who need a manager to stand over their shoulder or they stop working - those ones get let go quickly.

Also, I work with people around the entire world. UK, UAE, Singapore, India, China Australia, New Zealand, etc. All sorts of time zones. Sometimes I have to be on a call at 5:30 AM. Sometimes I have to be on a call at 10:30 PM - depending on the time zone of my coworker I am on a call with. Last night, there was an emergency, and I had to answer emails at 2:00 AM and then at 5:30 AM I was asked to get on a call to help fix an issue in Sydney, Australia. No one will tell me I can’t take an afternoon off to go spend time with my child. No one cares. My director trusts me to do the work they need me to do around the world, and I can take any time off I need to take as long as it doesn’t interfere with project timelines. Two months ago, I told my director I was taking my family for summer to Québec, and I would be working from our house there. He said, “Of course, no issues.” I worked from Québec for 6 weeks. There was no difference for my company. Why would they care where I am as long as I do my work? This is the new way of working and living. I’ve been doing this for over 10 years now - way before the pandemic opened the eyes of CEOs how people want to work and how profitable this new way of working is for most companies.

I did say good for you and those working in those situations. Why are you being so hell bent on saying this is the way it should be for everyone? Because if that’s what you’re saying, you’re wrong. There are 2 sides to this, and one you have completely ignored or refuse to accept is even there.

 

[sirozha]

Goalposts? I’m not the one who raised slavery 🙄

You’ve got the definition wrong. There is a servant that is position of employment, like being an architect or a whatever. And there is a servant which is the same meaning as the term employee. I can’t help it if you're having trouble with the English language (kids these days…).

And no goal posts being moved. An employee (or servant of the company or whatever you feel is right for your mood) is told they need to be in the office, then that’s where they need to be. If you can negotiate for any or all of your time to work from home, then thats also great.

What is so hard about that? There are many reasons (that people will ignore because it doesn’t suit their bias) why an employer requires a person to work on site (office or whatever) and even some reasons why working from home is better. Are you just being obstructive or do you not actually understand?

I really have no further desire to engage in a conversation with you. If you think an employee is a servant, my world view is fundamentally opposite of yours. And that’s that. That’s actually why I can’t stand the word “employee” or “resource” when referring to human beings. That’s why a lot of forward looking companies no longer use the word employee. I would never work for a company that has leadership that thinks like you. Fortunately, I have plenty of opportunities to work for companies that don’t have the retrograde beliefs you have. Additionally, most other people who make well into 6 figures do not subscribe to your beliefs of how the relationship between the company and the “employees” should be structured. Hence, these well compensated engineers tell Apple to pound sand when Cook tries to drag them to the office and this compell them to waste 3 hours of their life in mindless commutes.

If I’m kid, you must be an octogenarian. But thanks for shaving four decades off my advanced age.

 

[sirozha]

I did say good for you and those working in those situations. Why are you being so hell bent on saying this is the way it should be for everyone? Because if that’s what you’re saying, you’re wrong. There are 2 sides to this, and one you have completely ignored or refuse to accept is even there.

Because this is the way of the future. That’s why. There are certain blue-color and white-color jobs that cannot be done remotely. Most others can be.

If a person flips burgers, he must be present at the burger flipping place. If a person is a car mechanic, he must work from the garage. So those who say, “I must go to my place of employment every day and that’s why everyone should be compelled to do the same” are missing the point. The reason they have to drive to work every day is the occupation they are in. It’s the choice they made in life. Most jobs in 1st world countries are so called “office jobs” that absolutely allow for the new paradigm of working from home.

Surgeons must come to the office to see patients and to do surgeries. Engineers, sales people, project managers, medical billing people, medical appointment schedulers, and hundreds of other occupations can work from home. Scientists who work with lab mice must come to work. Architects who design buildings don’t have to.

Cook is a blast from the past. He still thinks like he did in the early 1980s when he managed people at HP. He was a cool dude for the 1980s, but his time has passed. Additionally, for obvious reasons, he has no family to take care of, so in his mind, all his engineers are single metrosexuals living in swanky condos who have absolutely no reason to hate coming to a swanky spaceship office to hang around with other cool metrosexuals and have nice free drinks and free healthy meals at the company expense. He doesn’t understand that people have families, kids, and plenty of other responsibilities, so they don’t want to waste hours in commutes anymore now that it has been proven for several years that their work can be done remotely. They also know very well that there are literally dozens (if not hundreds) of companies within a 5 mile radius of the Apple spaceship that would allow them to work remotely and would pay them more than Apple does. If Cook insists this time on dragging everyone to the office, Apple will suffer a Great Brain Drain.

Cisco, unlike Apple, has gone 100% remote for most engineers. In my metro area, Cisco has eliminated all their office spaces, outfitted their engineers with tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear for their home offices, and is now completely WFH.

In the next couple of years, there is gong to be a large shift of most talented employees from the companies like Cook’s Apple and Musk’s Tesla to the companies that understand that the value of a good employee is the quality of work that he does and not in the fact that he comes to work in the office to warm his chair for so many hours per day. The market competition will show who was right and who was wrong.

 

[steve09090]

I really have no further desire to engage in a conversation with you. If you think an employee is a servant, my world view is fundamentally opposite of yours. And that’s that. That’s actually why I can’t stand the word “employee” or “resource” when referring to human beings. That’s why a lot of forward looking companies no longer use the word employee. I would never work for a company that has leadership that thinks like you. Fortunately, I have plenty of opportunities to work for companies that don’t have the retrograde beliefs you have. Additionally, most other people who make well into 6 figures do not subscribe to your beliefs of how the relationship between the company and the “employees” should be structured. Hence, these well compensated engineers tell Apple to pound sand when Cook tries to drag them to the office and this compell them to waste 3 hours of their life in mindless commutes.

If I’m kid, you must be an octogenarian. But thanks for shaving four decades off my advanced age.

I agree. We’re obviously polar opposite on things. I believe employers have a right to run a business they way they want, and don't believe the Karen’s in this world have the right to try and Lord it over them. We’re different in that regard. I guess it’s similar to the way I actually use the English language the way it was intended and don’t try and manipulate it be what I want.

I also agree that there is no point in engaging with someone who refuses to see the way the world actually is, and try and say it’s something different for purely selfish reasons. We’re different and should agree to disagree.

 

[Arran]

…there is no point in engaging with someone who refuses to see the way the world actually is…

One thing I‘ve learned is that the world varies depending on where you live.

Just curious Steve, which part of the world are you in? Guessing it’s not the US - which might explain some of the disconnect here?

 

[chevyboy60013]

That really sucks man, I’m sure you’ll find a better job soon.

Had to go to work the entire time of the alleged pandemic, like all first responders did. Never wore a mask, refused all vaccinations and never got tested for anything and never missed a day over a sneeze.

 

[steve09090]

One thing I‘ve learned is that the world varies depending on where you live.

Just curious Steve, which part of the world are you in? Guessing it’s not the US - which might explain some of the disconnect here?

Down Under. There may very well be a disconnect. And yes, location, upbringing and experiences does absolutely vary one’s perceptions and views. I worked for 36 years in my dream job before recent early retirement. And having seen the things I’ve seen (notably, probably tragic 4,000 deaths) I have a very particular view of the world and it’s all grey, but it’s not bad. Nothing at all is black and white. Life is good and people need to live their best lives. you asked 😂

 

[seek3r]

This is very true. And with a few very rare exceptions they are corrupt, self-serving and serve the interests of the enemy states for their own gain.

Doesnt describe most of the public servants I know or have met. Typically public service pays less than equivlent jobs in private industry (though, because unions have stayed stronger, it does tend to come with better retirement benefits) and people take the jobs because they’re dedicated to the work. To disparage the entire public sector as you’ve done is a serious disservice to people who work tirelessly to make sure you have clean water, clean air, safety regulations, education, and so much more. I really hope you’re just trolling

 

[seek3r]

The company I work for never used covid as an excuse we were in the office every single day and never followed any mask mandate boss said it was our choice and none of us were sick and we felt with the public. 6 days a week.

That sounds pretty awful my dude. I’m a volunteer EMT and we got absolutely hammered during the pandemic. I’ve seen more people deathly ill from COV19 than I can count, you’re lucky you didnt get sick pre-vaccine

 

[belvdr]

I believe employers have a right to run a business they way they want, and don't believe the Karen’s in this world have the right to try and Lord it over them.

I have a very particular view of the world and it’s all grey, but it’s not bad. Nothing at all is black and white.

So if nothing is black and white, how can the right be only the employer's and not also the employees'? In my opinion, I think the term "Karen" is thrown around way too often. It's now used to label anyone who doesn't agree with someone. In your view, why do employees signing a petition make them a "Karen"? It's nothing more than providing a data backed point to an entity; in this case, they can show management how many people want to work remotely. This is not the same as someone screaming about it.

 

[seek3r]

Had to go to work the entire time of the alleged pandemic, like all first responders did. Never wore a mask, refused all vaccinations and never got tested for anything and never missed a day over a sneeze.

As someone who is, in fact, a first responder, volley EMS in one of the busier areas in the country for EMS, please dont use us as this example. We wore masks, we were first in line to get vaccines, and we really wish folks like you had worked from home, wore a mask, got vaccinated, and got tested. It would have made everyone’s lives a lot easier (in case anyone needs another argument for Apple employees to be able to work from home btw, to bring this back on topic, clearer roads help emergency response and also the pandemic isnt over yet - the less spread the better)

 

[steve09090]

So if nothing is black and white, how can the right be only the employer's and not also the employees'? In my opinion, I think the term "Karen" is thrown around way too often. It's now used to label anyone who doesn't agree with someone. In your view, why do employees signing a petition make them a "Karen"? It's nothing more than providing a data backed point to an entity; in this case, they can show management how many people want to work remotely. This is not the same as someone screaming about it.

I have said time and again and it is obviously overlooked by people with a blunt bias towards WFH. People can negotiate whichever way they want. I’m not against WFH, but I not against working in an office either. Geez….

I have never said "Only the Employer and not also the Employee" or anything like it. Why falsify my words?

 

[belvdr]

I have said time and again and it is obviously overlooked by people with a blunt bias towards WFH. People can negotiate whichever way they want. I’m not against WFH, but I not against working in an office either. Geez….

I have never said "Only the Employer and not also the Employee" or anything like it. Why falsify my words?

I didn't falsify your words; I quoted you, like this:

I believe employers have a right to run a business they way they want, and don't believe the Karen’s in this world have the right to try and Lord it over them.

I'm good with employer/employee negotiation. I see a petition as a form of that, especially for a large company.

 

[steve09090]

I didn't falsify your words; I quoted you, like this:

Exactly. You leave out everything I have said about both being able to negotiate a mutual condition. Selective quoted is lying. But whatever. Credibility gone. Good Night.

 

[belvdr]

Exactly. You leave out everything I have said about both being able to negotiate a mutual condition. Selective quoted is lying. But whatever. Credibility gone. Good Night.

I didn't see anything in your post about negotiation, and the other parts are unrelated to what I quoted. It may have occurred earlier and I missed it. However, I'm not certain how you could make the statement above and also agree that negotiation is good.

Good night.

 

[steve09090]

I didn't see anything in your post about negotiation, and the other parts are unrelated to what I quoted. It may have occurred earlier and I missed it. However, I'm not certain how you could make the statement above and also agree that negotiation is good.

Good night.

In many many of my other posts.

 

[belvdr]

In many many of my other posts.

I missed them then. That's possible with 21 pages of posts.

 

[Craigwilliam]

They can do it. How much can the area afford in terms of job reqs? You think apple will fall apart?

They will make things a lot harder for themselves, I don't know why this is such a hard concept for some of you people to grasp. Do you think it's easy to find great people? It has been pointed out before that if they could afford to lose them they probably would've gotten rid of them. They aren't expendable in the way that you've chosen to think that they are. Never mind the damage mass sackings would do to the morale of the company and Tim Cook's reputation with his employees. Get it through your head that this isn't a Starbucks. These employees have leverage with the company whether you accept it or not.

 

[belvdr]

Has there been any word on how many signatures this petition received?

 

[bunnicula]

Has there been any word on how many signatures this petition received?

The last article I saw about it was a couple of days ago and it had over 700 at that point in time. No telling now.

 

[seek3r]

They will make things a lot harder for themselves, I don't know why this is such a hard concept for some of you people to grasp. Do you think it's easy to find great people? It has been pointed out before that if they could afford to lose them they probably would've gotten rid of them. They aren't expendable in the way that you've chosen to think that they are. Never mind the damage mass sackings would do to the morale of the company and Tim Cook's reputation with his employees. Get it through your head that this isn't a Starbucks. These employees have leverage with the company whether you accept it or not.

The folks on this thread arguing that all these employees are easily replaceable either don't work in tech or work in some lower level IT support, it’s rather obvious.

I will quibble with one part of your post though: Starbucks employees have leverage too. Both because being a barista at a busy starbucks isnt an easy job and because of scale. Collective bargaining works, 230+ stores have held union votes or in the middle of union drives, that’s a *lot* of leverage to balance the corporation’s heft. There’s a reason unions have been responsible for the biggest labor rights gains in at least the US: there’s a power in numbers. Safety regulations are written in union blood, particularly in fields where individuals dont have the leverage top engineers have.

 

[I7guy]

The folks on this thread arguing that all these employees are easily replaceable either don't work in tech or work in some lower level IT support, it’s rather obvious.

Correct. Take out the word “easily”.

I will quibble with one part of your post though: Starbucks employees have leverage too. Both because being a barista at a busy starbucks isnt an easy job and because of scale. Collective bargaining works, 230+ stores have held union votes or in the middle of union drives, that’s a *lot* of leverage to balance the corporation’s heft. There’s a reason unions have been responsible for the biggest labor rights gains in at least the US: there’s a power in numbers. Safety regulations are written in union blood, particularly in fields where individuals dont have the leverage top engineers have.

 

[I7guy]

They will make things a lot harder for themselves, I don't know why this is such a hard concept for some of you people to grasp.

“You people”? Who exactly are “you people”.?

Do you think it's easy to find great people?

Is everything in life easy? Why is easy the low bar? If a professionals job was “easy”, it would be easy to learn the job, get results fast and replace in the blink of an eye.

It has been pointed out before that if they could afford to lose them they probably would've gotten rid of them.

Companies don’t want to lose productive employees, however sometimes it’s necessary for various reasons.

They aren't expendable in the way that you've chosen to think that they are.

Yes they are. Everybody is expendable.

Never mind the damage mass sackings would do to the morale of the company and Tim Cook's reputation with his employees.

Apple isn’t mass sacking. People will leave if they want.

Get it through your head that this isn't a Starbucks.

“Get it through your head”. Such condescension.

These employees have leverage with the company whether you accept it or not.

These employees don’t have the leverage you wrongly believe they have.

 

[sirozha]

“You people”? Who exactly are “you people”.?

Is everything in life easy? Why is easy the low bar? If a professionals job was “easy”, it would be easy to learn the job, get results fast and replace in the blink of an eye.

Companies don’t want to lose productive employees, however sometimes it’s necessary for various reasons.

Yes they are. Everybody is expendable.

Apple isn’t mass sacking. People will leave if they want.

“Get it through your head”. Such condescension.

These employees don’t have the leverage you wrongly believe they have.

Dude, you have no idea. My new boss in 2018 went on a power trip and fired half of the engineering department and brought his friends in. The company lost some serious engineering talent and is still struggling with it four years later. Another quarter left on their own because of him being inflexible on WFH. I was one of those who tried to negotiate with him but after many hours of fruitless arguments, I finally had it with him and also left. They asked the people who left to come back literally months later because they lost most of their talent. Some people came back with a much stronger negotiating position and got better pay and 100% WFH. Others found better places for themselves. They tried to fill my role for months, having interviewed 17 people, and they finally gave up and asked me to come back. I told my director I will not come back if I can't work 100% from home and if I have to report to the bozo manager. I also told them my new rate was 25% higher. The director accommodated all of my requirements. This is how it works between those who know their stuff in IT and the companies. Those who do not understand this dynamic, make incredibly ridiculous posts on here about employees being servants and being required to do as their companies tell them.