Apple Employees Reportedly Petitioning Against Plan to Return to Office 3x Per Week

[DeepIn2U]

You say that like Apple employees already didn't have laptops and VPN access PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC.

As someone who has worked in corporate for a couple decades or so now, I can assure you I have had all that whether I was working in-office or remote. Just, now that I am fully remote (and was pre-pandemic), I don't cost an employer a dime in electricity, water, cleaning costs of an office, office furniture, etc.

No I'm not saying employees didn't have this already prior to Pandemic but there is still a yearly cost to it that most employees out of I.T. don't see or know. Also cost of laptops (possibly the lease expired and or upgraded during pandemic). Also soft-phones over Microsoft RDP cannot carry your voice over to the other party when you RDP to the work PC and use the work PC in office connected from your personal PC.

You still cost your employer:
Life Insurance premiums - if you're not going to be in office anymore an employer can argue there is no need or present potential work dangers for injuries or dental. They can pro-rate your glass expense too.
the VPN is a cost whether you see it or not - I'm in I.T. so I see the various costs.
the cell phone that your work may have payed for on contract and the monthly fee - again is a cost. Why would an employer need to continue this cost if you're at home on VPN and can use corporate soft-phone with headphones ?? right?!
Infrastructure costs:
Servers for Cisco CUCM/Unity, Shared Drive hosting (internal) or the E1/E3 Microsoft 365/O365 license (that holds OneDrive, Emails, etc), there is also the VPN backbone as well, printers in office (should you still need to print for those that DO go into the office)
There is also meetings with partners or clients: there are nuances such as body language or gestures that occur that crafty salespeople or others pick-up on and adjust on the fly that so called HD Zoom may miss (especially with people and presentation enabled where person B has begun talking but you need to be looking at person A whom does the final sign-off/signature to a large deal. Guess what with People+presentation you no longer can see person B on zoom and that's by design! This deal fails you could be costing the company a LOT more than 1000 employees+their benefits+cleaning costs! )


you must also subscribe to the fake-quitter type mentality. Work just enough to not get fired but the bare minimum and clock out on the nose end of your shift, to avoid going over and above. Sorry I don't I work hard for a living and being a contractor at so many places and now direct employee at my same firm: I've seen other former colleagues work the bare minimum. Seen them do the daily pandemic symptom check list and mark off 1 sympton (headache, runny nose, or cough) so that they get to stay home, scew up in office I.T. rotation last minute forcing someone else scheduled to then come into the office (Me in many instances).

Where are they now?
working same job elsewhere for less/more, most likely with no rapor built with colleagues, less benefits, or a much colder employee environment or one they may not work well with. I worked over an above, as it's easy with such a great employee culture proper management - right up to the CEO!

when a CEO sends you a direct email (not on-behalf of from his assistant) that you've been hired on full time direct from contract ... you know you're in the right company.

I do see benefits to WFH for some:
new baby/babies
ill or elderly parents living with them needing care,
2hr commute 1 way - but that was known to a person LONG before the pandemic and during that time would've been THE best to work elsewhere.

metropolis cities are not going away,
corporations and policies are not going away,
corporate culture to work in-office is not going away from the Fortune 500 companies,

So Apple will call whiners' bluff and major competitors will only ask the same. This is one of those 'pick your battles' moments in life.

 

[bunnicula]

No I'm not saying employees didn't have this already prior to Pandemic but there is still a yearly cost to it that most employees out of I.T. don't see or know. Also cost of laptops (possibly the lease expired and or upgraded during pandemic). Also soft-phones over Microsoft RDP cannot carry your voice over to the other party when you RDP to the work PC and use the work PC in office connected from your personal PC.

You still cost your employer:
Life Insurance premiums - if you're not going to be in office anymore an employer can argue there is no need or present potential work dangers for injuries or dental. They can pro-rate your glass expense too.
the VPN is a cost whether you see it or not - I'm in I.T. so I see the various costs.
the cell phone that your work may have payed for on contract and the monthly fee - again is a cost. Why would an employer need to continue this cost if you're at home on VPN and can use corporate soft-phone with headphones ?? right?!
Infrastructure costs:
Servers for Cisco CUCM/Unity, Shared Drive hosting (internal) or the E1/E3 Microsoft 365/O365 license (that holds OneDrive, Emails, etc), there is also the VPN backbone as well, printers in office (should you still need to print for those that DO go into the office)
There is also meetings with partners or clients: there are nuances such as body language or gestures that occur that crafty salespeople or others pick-up on and adjust on the fly that so called HD Zoom may miss (especially with people and presentation enabled where person B has begun talking but you need to be looking at person A whom does the final sign-off/signature to a large deal. Guess what with People+presentation you no longer can see person B on zoom and that's by design! This deal fails you could be costing the company a LOT more than 1000 employees+their benefits+cleaning costs! )


you must also subscribe to the fake-quitter type mentality. Work just enough to not get fired but the bare minimum and clock out on the nose end of your shift, to avoid going over and above. Sorry I don't I work hard for a living and being a contractor at so many places and now direct employee at my same firm: I've seen other former colleagues work the bare minimum. Seen them do the daily pandemic symptom check list and mark off 1 sympton (headache, runny nose, or cough) so that they get to stay home, scew up in office I.T. rotation last minute forcing someone else scheduled to then come into the office (Me in many instances).

Where are they now?
working same job elsewhere for less/more, most likely with no rapor built with colleagues, less benefits, or a much colder employee environment or one they may not work well with. I worked over an above, as it's easy with such a great employee culture proper management - right up to the CEO!

when a CEO sends you a direct email (not on-behalf of from his assistant) that you've been hired on full time direct from contract ... you know you're in the right company.

I do see benefits to WFH for some:
new baby/babies
ill or elderly parents living with them needing care,
2hr commute 1 way - but that was known to a person LONG before the pandemic and during that time would've been THE best to work elsewhere.

metropolis cities are not going away,
corporations and policies are not going away,
corporate culture to work in-office is not going away from the Fortune 500 companies,

So Apple will call whiners' bluff and major competitors will only ask the same. This is one of those 'pick your battles' moments in life.

Oh, bless your heart... you think you're the only person who "works in IT" on MR Forums?

Okay, slick...

Laptops are a thing that most companies, be they IT or not, assign to every employee and that much has NOT changed over the pandemic. Ditto VPN.

Soft phones vary... some employers provide them, others have their team members make do over MS Teams audio or similar. Some provide cell phones, some do not. That much hasn't really changed since the pandemic.

Tell me again about life insurance and how that's relevant because these are still employees with benefits whether you have them onsite or they work remotely. Did companies with sales forces who called on customers not give them insurance benefits prior to the pandemic? They did. And they still do.

One thing that employers will NOT have to pay out is workers comp because nobody's having accidents onsite if they are not onsite. Unless a company-owned laptop explodes in someone's face or some unlikely thing, that is a thing that they won't be paying.

Some companies don't even offer monitors or chairs. Employees provide their own. And, that's okay because they can get whatever they want for their home offices.

So... that company just saved on expensive office furnishings and monitors.

I am a person who believes in doing the job I was hired to do, be it via direct hire or contract. I don't believe that any company is seriously going to throw me a promotion and a bonus for working 12 hours a day when I can get done what I need to get done in less time. I'm not punching a clock and office work is not making widgets in a factory.

If I WANT to do extra because I find a project interesting or appealing to me, as a human being? I will do it, but I always consider how much extra time I'm giving and what that really means to me in terms of compensation.

Everyone should consider those costs. I could be working another job for actual pay and/or pursuing leisure hobbies instead of giving free time to a company because when the rubber hits the road, they'll ditch you fast and hard to keep their shareholders happy. No matter how much of a "rock star" who "goes the extra mile" you think you are.

 

[DeepIn2U]

They are not employees. They are people. You must be a true American. How many jobs do you work flipping burgers?

LMAO ... OMG

People yes, but still employees if an employer pays you. Plain and simple and you don't need to be flipping burgers to be an employee/associate.

 

[I7guy]

Dude, you have no idea. My new boss in 2018 went on a power trip and fired half of the engineering department and brought his friends in. The company lost some serious engineering talent and is still struggling with it four years later. Another quarter left on their own because of him being inflexible on WFH. I was one of those who tried to negotiate with him but after many hours of fruitless arguments, I finally had it with him and also left. They asked the people who left to come back literally months later because they lost most of their talent. Some people came back with a much stronger negotiating position and got better pay and 100% WFH. Others found better places for themselves. They tried to fill my role for months, having interviewed 17 people, and they finally gave up and asked me to come back. I told my director I will not come back if I can't work 100% from home and if I have to report to the bozo manager. I also told them my new rate was 25% higher. The director accommodated all of my requirements. This is how it works between those who know their stuff in IT and the companies. Those who do not understand this dynamic, make incredibly ridiculous posts on here about employees being servants and being required to do as their companies tell them.

Yours is one data point out of millions and millions. For you, it worked out one way. For others it can work out other ways.

It all depends. As I said nobody is irreplaceable. However, sometimes it makes sense to bring out the carrot rather than the stick. But it all depends.

Edit: nobody has to do what their employer tells them. The US is mostly at-will employment. If one doesn’t like what their employers tell them, quit.

 

[sirozha]

LMAO ... OMG

People yes, but still employees if an employer pays you. Plain and simple and you don't need to be flipping burgers to be an employee/associate.

No, you need to be flipping burgers to think like this.

 

[DeepIn2U]

No, you need to be flipping burgers to think like this.

No you don't!

If you work at a corporation/company I'm sure you have an employee ID = you're an employee.
You are not married to your job.
you are NOT your job.
your importance and sense of self worth is NOT determined nor EVER should be based on your job/career - nor should you judge others this way.

IF you think Employee = flipping burgers than one or all the above is your mindset. Most likely at gatherings you ask people 'what do you do for work?' I ask 'what do you enjoy most for fun?' or something similar.

you think far too rigid.

 

[boss.king]

Had to go to work the entire time of the alleged pandemic, like all first responders did. Never wore a mask, refused all vaccinations and never got tested for anything and never missed a day over a sneeze.

Why do you say "alleged pandemic"? Do you not know what alleged means or you just don't believe in science? Either way, maybe not a great candidate to be a first responder.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Oh, bless your heart... you think you're the only person who "works in IT" on MR Forums?

Okay, slick...

Laptops are a thing that most companies, be they IT or not, assign to every employee and that much has NOT changed over the pandemic. Ditto VPN.

Soft phones vary... some employers provide them, others have their team members make do over MS Teams audio or similar. Some provide cell phones, some do not. That much hasn't really changed since the pandemic.

Tell me again about life insurance and how that's relevant because these are still employees with benefits whether you have them onsite or they work remotely. Did companies with sales forces who called on customers not give them insurance benefits prior to the pandemic? They did. And they still do.

One thing that employers will NOT have to pay out is workers comp because nobody's having accidents onsite if they are not onsite. Unless a company-owned laptop explodes in someone's face or some unlikely thing, that is a thing that they won't be paying.

Some companies don't even offer monitors or chairs. Employees provide their own. And, that's okay because they can get whatever they want for their home offices.

So... that company just saved on expensive office furnishings and monitors.

I am a person who believes in doing the job I was hired to do, be it via direct hire or contract. I don't believe that any company is seriously going to throw me a promotion and a bonus for working 12 hours a day when I can get done what I need to get done in less time. I'm not punching a clock and office work is not making widgets in a factory.

If I WANT to do extra because I find a project interesting or appealing to me, as a human being? I will do it, but I always consider how much extra time I'm giving and what that really means to me in terms of compensation.

Everyone should consider those costs. I could be working another job for actual pay and/or pursuing leisure hobbies instead of giving free time to a company because when the rubber hits the road, they'll ditch you fast and hard to keep their shareholders happy. No matter how much of a "rock star" who "goes the extra mile" you think you are.

Good for you.

But if you work from home, how much of that corporate insurance do you really need? How often do you travel? You like to run your insults to put others down, I don't. I'm saying this will be the next wave of things corporations WILL begin in this whole debate of working from home.

You do recall when Androids and iPhone's began showing up in the work place to replace the drones of BlackBerry's (BBOS) right? You recall when shared billing or data segregation began when people brought in their own phones for use with the company right? This is along the same sort of thought here.

The company I work at supplied 3 monitors (3 in total all at home/office or both), Docks etc. Sure the company standardizes on hardware specs due to their preferred pricing or lease cost structure. And yes when you work at home unless you connect to a VM/VDI or work laptop you can use what you want. So to is the troubleshooting for such hardware to work with your employers software - best effort support is all that is promised and trust me, a LOT of users at a lot of businesses NEED to have more than that else they'd suffer an optimal work flow.


Our work styles are different and that's fine. I generally or on a basic level really enjoy what I'm doing at work, regardless of the corporation or industry I've worked at. Like you, "I am a person who believes in doing the job I was hired to do" but I'll be damned if I 'half-step it' so that someone complains or states it's not done right. That's just my self work ethic and pride in what I do. I can recognize the need to go over and beyond or work smarter or harder to get my job done. In my line of work showing what I can do more or think out of the box leads me to be more efficient, more useful than others. And it's really showing. Don't get me wrong I have a personal life and try not to make that suffer but I want to grow at a good place so that I build enough $$ so that the money works twice as smart and 10x as harder than I make it so I can fully leave happily on good terms. After all I do work in a financial industry so learning more in this area helps my end goal(s). A lot of what I'd normally do is considered project work due to the single-task-done let someone-else do the next task mentality of a few of my colleagues do seems to be that norm.

 

[avz]

Doesnt describe most of the public servants I know or have met. Typically public service pays less than equivlent jobs in private industry (though, because unions have stayed stronger, it does tend to come with better retirement benefits) and people take the jobs because they’re dedicated to the work. To disparage the entire public sector as you’ve done is a serious disservice to people who work tirelessly to make sure you have clean water, clean air, safety regulations, education, and so much more. I really hope you’re just trolling

Clearly I was more referring to the politicians as they are public servants as well. What is interesting is that you did not even seem to consider them(probably because of their high(er) salary and shady deals on the side) thus elevating them above the rest. So indirectly you are actually reinforced my point.

 

[steve09090]

Dude, you have no idea. My new boss in 2018 went on a power trip and fired half of the engineering department and brought his friends in. The company lost some serious engineering talent and is still struggling with it four years later. Another quarter left on their own because of him being inflexible on WFH. I was one of those who tried to negotiate with him but after many hours of fruitless arguments, I finally had it with him and also left. They asked the people who left to come back literally months later because they lost most of their talent. Some people came back with a much stronger negotiating position and got better pay and 100% WFH. Others found better places for themselves. They tried to fill my role for months, having interviewed 17 people, and they finally gave up and asked me to come back. I told my director I will not come back if I can't work 100% from home and if I have to report to the bozo manager. I also told them my new rate was 25% higher. The director accommodated all of my requirements. This is how it works between those who know their stuff in IT and the companies. Those who do not understand this dynamic, make incredibly ridiculous posts on here about employees being servants and being required to do as their companies tell them.

Such a lack of understanding….

 

[seek3r]

Clearly I was more referring to the politicians as they are public servants as well. What is interesting is that you did not even seem to consider them(probably because of their high(er) salary and shady deals on the side) thus elevating them above the rest. So indirectly you are actually reinforced my point.

elected officials arent usually referred to as public servants in conversation. Technically they are but "public servant" as an idiom is usually equivelent to "non-political staff/career civil servant"

 

[seek3r]

Good for you.

But if you work from home, how much of that corporate insurance do you really need? How often do you travel? You like to run your insults to put others down, I don't. I'm saying this will be the next wave of things corporations WILL begin in this whole debate of working from home.

You do recall when Androids and iPhone's began showing up in the work place to replace the drones of BlackBerry's (BBOS) right? You recall when shared billing or data segregation began when people brought in their own phones for use with the company right? This is along the same sort of thought here.

I get a choice, a company phone or a monthly BYOD subsidy towards my cell plan (it's what I take and it's just included in my paycheck, they dont deal with my carrier), same thing at my last job.

The company I work at supplied 3 monitors (3 in total all at home/office or both), Docks etc. Sure the company standardizes on hardware specs due to their preferred pricing or lease cost structure. And yes when you work at home unless you connect to a VM/VDI or work laptop you can use what you want. So to is the troubleshooting for such hardware to work with your employers software - best effort support is all that is promised and trust me, a LOT of users at a lot of businesses NEED to have more than that else they'd suffer an optimal work flow.

How did they not have to do this before the pandemic? Everyone I know in this field, unless they're working in SCIFs, took their laptop home to work sometimes even if they werent a full time WFH employee. That's the main reason why laptops have overtaken desktops for most employees at most companies.

A lot of what I'd normally do is considered project work due to the single-task-done let someone-else do the next task mentality of a few of my colleagues do seems to be that norm.

so you're an individual contributor whose never had to architect, shepherd, or coordinate a large project with a lot of people and moving parts. Yeah, I can see why you may have the POV you have. Come back to this in a few years and see how you feel about your comments.

 

[sirozha]

No you don't!

If you work at a corporation/company I'm sure you have an employee ID = you're an employee.
You are not married to your job.
you are NOT your job.
your importance and sense of self worth is NOT determined nor EVER should be based on your job/career - nor should you judge others this way.

IF you think Employee = flipping burgers than one or all the above is your mindset. Most likely at gatherings you ask people 'what do you do for work?' I ask 'what do you enjoy most for fun?' or something similar.

you think far too rigid.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. I HATE when people ask, "What do you do?" I agree that someone's worth is not determined by his job. Also, I prefer not going to gatherings. I am a misanthrope.

None of this changes the fact that if one flips burgers for a living, he has absolutely no leverage with the employer, and if one has a skill that is hard to come by and is high demand, one has all the leverage. So, flipping burgers for a living leads people to believe that if they have to put up with everything their boss demands then it must be the same way for everyone else.

 

[sirozha]

Such a lack of understanding….

The lack of understanding is all yours. You are stuck in the past. Thankfully, you are retired.

 

[Craigwilliam]

The folks on this thread arguing that all these employees are easily replaceable either don't work in tech or work in some lower level IT support, it’s rather obvious.

I will quibble with one part of your post though: Starbucks employees have leverage too. Both because being a barista at a busy starbucks isnt an easy job and because of scale. Collective bargaining works, 230+ stores have held union votes or in the middle of union drives, that’s a *lot* of leverage to balance the corporation’s heft. There’s a reason unions have been responsible for the biggest labor rights gains in at least the US: there’s a power in numbers. Safety regulations are written in union blood, particularly in fields where individuals dont have the leverage top engineers have.

If Starbucks employees have any leverage it's because of collective bargaining. I didn't bring up unions because I don't think Apple is unionized, though if I recall correctly one store was able to vote to unionize not long ago. Apple's stores are where they need collective bargaining.

 

[steve09090]

The lack of understanding is all yours. You are stuck in the past. Thankfully, you are retired.

Also known as more experience. I completely understand that you don't have a good understanding of these issues, so I will let that slide. 👶🏻

 

[sirozha]

Also known as more experience. I completely understand that you don't have a good understanding of these issues, so I will let that slide. 👶🏻

Trust me, I have a good understanding of these issues. I’ve been working as a consultant for 18 years now, and over 10 of these years remotely without having to come to the office. Before that, I was a peon who was required to drive to the office daily, but that was a different era quarter of a century ago.

Judging by how you guys in Australia were locked down in your homes by the government for months on end over and over and over again, as well as arrested for getting outside your geofenced areas, your understanding of what freedom means differs quite a bit from what freedom means in the US. Your conviction that an employee is a servant still blows my mind three days after you first wrote it. You are still part of the monarchy, so thinking of yourself as a servant probably feels completely natural to you. Good luck in all of your endeavo(u)rs.

 

[steve09090]

Trust me, I have a good understanding of these issues. I’ve been working as a consultant for 18 years now, and over 10 of these years remotely without having to come to the office. Before that, I was a peon who was required to drive to the office daily, but that was a different era quarter of a century ago.

Judging by how you guys in Australia were locked down in your homes by the government for months on end over and over and over again, as well as arrested for getting outside your geofenced areas, your understanding of what freedom means differs quite a bit from what freedom means in the US. Your conviction that an employee is a servant still blows my mind three days after you first wrote it. You are still part of the monarchy, so thinking of yourself as a servant probably feels completely natural to you. Good luck in all of your endeavo(u)rs.

Wow, condescending.

1. I don’t trust a single word you say, because clearly you're struggling with pretty much the entire thought of people working in an office. Some people just aren’t cut out to work face to face I guess.

2. It’s the definition, so I take no notice of your monarchy rubbish.

3. You clearly know more about Australia than me with regard to lockdowns and probably everything else, seeing as you know how to use a search engine. Personally, where I have lived I haven’t had a single day in lockdown, and I’ve lived in 3 different states since 2019. Btw, Australia. 13,000 deaths , US 1,000,000 over the entire pandemic. That’s less than half of your gun deaths you’ve had so far this year (28,000 this year)!! Yeah I love your idea of Freedom! Wow 28,000 and climbing…. What you are naively talking about is a single state. Most States haven’t had any lockdowns at all. South Australia had 3 days. Also, there was no geofencing. Are you using Bing Search? You should use google.

4. I see no need to converse with you any more. Enjoy your solitary working from home.

 

[sirozha]

Wow, condescending.

1. I don’t trust a single word you say, because clearly you're struggling with pretty much the entire thought of people working in an office. Some people just aren’t cut out to work face to face I guess.

2. It’s the definition, so I take no notice of your monarchy rubbish.

3. You clearly know more about Australia than me with regard to lockdowns and probably everything else, seeing as you know how to use a search engine. Personally, where I have lived I haven’t had a single day in lockdown, and I’ve lived in 3 different states since 2019. Btw, Australia. 13,000 deaths , US 1,000,000 over the entire pandemic. That’s less than half of your gun deaths you’ve had so far this year (28,000 this year)!! Yeah I love your idea of Freedom! Wow 28,000 and climbing…. What you are naively talking about is a single state. Most States haven’t had any lockdowns at all. South Australia had 3 days. Also, there was no geofencing. Are you using Bing Search? You should use google.

4. I see no need to converse with you any more. Enjoy your solitary working from home.

Yes, I've been hoping you would stop cyber stalking me, so please stop. As the last comment (I won't respond again), you are a master of moving the goalposts. We are now comparing gun deaths between Australia and the US, and we are measuring how people perceive personal freedoms (such as whether they consider themselves servants to their employer) in either country based on how many people died of COVID-19 or of gun violence. Stay healthy and enjoy your well-deserved retirement.

 

[I7guy]

‘No seat, no job’: Why Jamie Dimon is quietly clamping down on remote work at JPMorgan

JPMorgan’s boss has been quietly telling senior managers he expects the mega-bank’s rank and file to be in their seats at the office five days a week.

nypost.com

 

[DeepIn2U]

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. I HATE when people ask, "What do you do?" I agree that someone's worth is not determined by his job. Also, I prefer not going to gatherings. I am a misanthrope.

None of this changes the fact that if one flips burgers for a living, he has absolutely no leverage with the employer, and if one has a skill that is hard to come by and is high demand, one has all the leverage. So, flipping burgers for a living leads people to believe that if they have to put up with everything their boss demands then it must be the same way for everyone else.

There you said it. Employer. That makes you an employee, your leverage doesn't matter because you STILL have to negotiate and use that leverage.

If you make money from an employer, like it or not, regardless of your views, your paycheques (Canadian for Paycheck) is still from an employer. Unless you're contractor or you run your own business - then you're not an employee.

You still have to put up with rules, laws, regulations that your employer imposes.

Try flaunting obvious or blatant male misogynistic behaviour around women at work, publicly.
Try being violent to colleagues or management at work, publicly.
Try bullying others, publicly.
Try any sexual assault, publicly at work.
Try changing employers

You'll see just how fast that leverage disappears & just how your high demand becomes nothing, and your view of being an employee (being equal to flipping burgers) becomes a reality! I equate your view of person above employee (or them not being equal when working for an employer) as the old standard of job security - it's an illusion given the right circumstances or economical environment: 2008 many that felt the same way you did quickly realized their mortgages was in serious danger.

But I do respect your view, even if I don't agree.

Cheers.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I get a choice, a company phone or a monthly BYOD subsidy towards my cell plan (it's what I take and it's just included in my paycheck, they dont deal with my carrier), same thing at my last job.



How did they not have to do this before the pandemic? Everyone I know in this field, unless they're working in SCIFs, took their laptop home to work sometimes even if they werent a full time WFH employee. That's the main reason why laptops have overtaken desktops for most employees at most companies.

so you're an individual contributor whose never had to architect, shepherd, or coordinate a large project with a lot of people and moving parts. Yeah, I can see why you may have the POV you have. Come back to this in a few years and see how you feel about your comments.

Pandemic was my project, was the same with SARS 2019 (not a global pandemic btw but prepared in case it was) back then as well.

VPN and laptops have been around for over 10yrs prior to the pandemic. ability to work from home or remote, again wasn't really a big change or anything new.

The ONLY things that were new was:
1> global official pandemic announcement and recognition by corporations, technically The WHO hasn't stated the pandemic is over.
2> Zoom or Google Meet - this was the BIGGEST change that the industry created and embraced due to circumstances. Polycom only allowed laptops to connect remotely to meeting/boardroom VCs via software but you needed VPN first and could not connect on other devices.
Also PolyCom / Cisco/Tandberg VCs where always behind corporate firewalls, which restricted outside connections, only inbound to outbound connections where allowed and usually to SIP connections when connecting externally (to hotels for example).

when Zoom resolved their security issues its now the mainstay and many corporations have begun or already replaced their VC (polycom or tandberg purchased by Cisco) with Zoom compatible VC hardware.

Also ability to administer AD accounts from your mobile phone with an MDM profile - yet many IT Security management frown on this.

SO the real question is why was fully remote not allowed as a general option for most employees before? Hmmm. find that out and you'll find the solution and full undeniable answer to this debate.

The funny thing is this debate will return to the same as before in less than a few years. People are thinking a global pandemic that is pretty much over as a win to change. when you change corporations I'm will to bet those in your industry have polarizing views against or with your own.

Something quite agressive:

‘No seat, no job’: Why Jamie Dimon is quietly clamping down on remote work at JPMorgan

JPMorgan’s boss has been quietly telling senior managers he expects the mega-bank’s rank and file to be in their seats at the office five days a week.

nypost.com

Jamie Dimon has grown increasingly aggressive behind the scenes with a clampdown on remote work — and insiders say a major reason is likely a certain skyscraper that’s under construction in Midtown Manhattan.


JPMorgan’s hard-charging chief executive has been quietly telling senior managers he expects the mega-bank’s rank and file to be in their seats at the office five days a week — a more stringent standard than the bank’s official line of three days a week, according to sources close to the company.


It’s also more in line with Goldman Sachs — which demanded well over a year ago that everyone return to its offices in downtown Manhattan five days a week. A company spokesman was quick to note the bank has no plans to change its hybrid policy.

 

[redheeler]

Honestly, I'm all up for coming back to work 3x per week. This is a fair deal.

Nothing wrong with this, give employees the option. The issue is trying to force them to come back. WFH is great for some people (introverts especially) and commuting can be expensive, stressful, and time-consuming depending on where you live. Apple can't pretend to be an inclusive company without acknowledging the different personality and location preferences among their workforce.

 

[I7guy]

[…]. Apple can't pretend to be an inclusive company without acknowledging the different personality and location preferences among their workforce.

That is a bit of spin of the definition of inclusive. Your employer has the right to dictate the (legal) ground rules of an employees’ employment. That includes the space in the office, workload, priorities, and wfh guidelines. The employee can reject the employers job description by quitting or attempting to negotiate.

 

[sracer]

That is a bit of spin of the definition of inclusive. Your employer has the right to dictate the (legal) ground rules of an employees’ employment. That includes the space in the office, workload, priorities, and wfh guidelines. The employee can reject the employers job description by quitting or attempting to negotiate.

Bam. 👍 This isn't rocket science.

WFH is simply another factor to consider when applying for, or staying in a position. It's a bit of an extension of workplaces that allow flexible time to leave the office during the day to run an errand. My current employer (a local college) doesn't pay very well but they provide a lot of flexibility in allowing employees to take care of life's tasks.

That flexibility has value to the employee (or at least should).

As for whether WFH has value to the employee all depends upon what the requirements are attached to WFH. If one has monitoring software to be held accountable or must be tethered to their computer while they are remote, then that is far different than being available to respond to incoming requests/calls and producing results at an efficiency and effectiveness comparable to being on site.

If Apple is paying top-dollar for particular positions, then they can easily require employees to return to campus (because there aren't a large pool of competitors who would offer comparable salaries with a WFH option).

But if they're paying industry-standard, then that's going to be a bit more challenging for them to require a return to the office... because those employees will have a greater number of alternative places of employment.