Apple Ordered to Help FBI Recover Data From San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone 5c

[H2SO4]

Sarcasm aside. This is a very, very difficult place for people to be and I’m not sure where I stand on it.
I’d put money that the people who are saying no now, would think differently if one of their relatives was being hunted by a serial killer and the FBI had his phone. They may have caught this shooter but who knows if he has friends that are bent on doing the same?

 

[Urban Joe]

I get it. Peace hasn't eradicated all use of deadly force, so peace has failed. "Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!"

I'd rather die like a sheep than live in a world where everyone needs to be armed.

Real life, true situation. A family friend kept a licensed handgun in his cash register. He'd been robbed, he was determined to defend his own. An unarmed customer came in, got into an argument over the bill, and that normally jovial family friend emptied his gun into the customer.

That is not the kind of world I want my children to live in. A world where a relative handful of crazies may open fire is one thing. A world where anyone, at any moment, may open fire is entirely something else. That's a state of war, a state of siege.

When everyone carries a Glock at his/her hip, how will I separate potential defender from potential attacker? Will they signal their intent by the color of their hats? No, I'd have to consider everyone with an openly-carried gun to be a potential threat, and everyone who may have a concealed weapon to be an even greater threat.

l'd need to be mentally prepared and regularly trained to return deadly-accurate fire on a moment's notice; to accurately distinguish between friend and foe; to behave in such a way that no other armed citizen would accidentally or intentionally open fire... And god help me when my reflexes inevitably decay. No country for old men, indeed!

The fact that armies possess weapons has not deterred war. Police are not immune from attack. Fortified cities are besieged and taken. Armed gangs attack armed gangs. I'm quite sure the majority of Iraqis and Syrians do not believe war is the answer.

You really miss the point. The right to bear arms was put in to defend against tyrannical, oppressive regimes. Had the colonists not been armed we would have never broken free from the tyranny of King George. No amount of laws are going to keep crazy/unstable people from harming others with whatever means they find most convenient. If not guns, they will use knives, broken bottles, slingshots, bow and arrows...you name it.

 

[scottsjack]

Sorry big government. There are times when privacy rules though it makes it inconvenient for law enforcement to fight crime.

 

[iOSFangirl6001]

My trust for Apple has sky rocketed today because of this. While I understand that there is a chance that some things on that phone might help the FBI, there is also a chance that this could open Pandoras Box and the government will want more and more from Apple in the future. I sincerely hope they fight this court order and do not do it.

For as many negatives some Apple haters like to give there's definitely little denying so far that Apple can at least be trusted with the sanctity of our privacy on our phones and other Apple products!

 

[randomgeeza]

Those two issues are completely and totally unrelated. You are fooled into beliveing that in order to stop the problem the government created themselves to begin with they have to take away your freedom and liberty. It's a scam.

This right here!!! I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's the bl**dy politicians that are the terrorists...

This is a means of removing even more privacies from average Joe. This is a test case to see how Apple responds given its publicly voiced opinions thus far. This will either break or strengthen their position. I hope it strengthens Apple's stance, although I suspect it will break it.

 

[convergent]

I really wonder if this case will reach the Supreme Court.

About that! Things have become such an utter mess in the US.

 

[lordofthereef]

Neither am I. But to me, a backdoor would be something left open in software on purpose for easy access. That's quite a bit different from looking for a flaw to exploit to get into someone's system.

In this case, Apple can give no guarantees that they'll be able to access this guy's phone, nor can it be held against them if they fail. But they do have to try.

I honestly think the back door being referred to in these discussions is a way for the maker (in this case Apple) to unlock a device when served with a subpoena. Purposely leaving a hole for anyone to walk through wouldn't seem to make sense to me, but again, I don't really know.

 

[lolkthxbai]

This case is DOA. Everyone that thinks Apple can load a unique version of iOS that allows for unlimited passcode attempts and no time delays is wrong. The device can not be updated unless the passcode is entered on the device or iTunes. The Passcode and hardware key are necessary to decrypt the phone and make changes without losing data. That's why you can load special software by doing a DFU (Device Firmware Update) Restore to re-enable a disabled device but the encrypted data is replaced with a new copy of iOS. In other words, you cant read the device storage without the passcode or erasing the entire device. Good luck.

 

[techwhiz]

Well this should be interesting to see the courts and government at war with Apple **grabs popcorn and actual Apple to snack on and watch as **** hits the fan lol **


Although the judges ( and FBI's ) logic is flawed I'd assume their thought process is something like:
Apple created the phone
Apple created the design
Apple created the code
Apple created the encryption
Apple suppliers built parts of the phone
etc

Apple didn't create the encryption.
The most secure hash to date is SHA256. Currently no collisions for SHA256.
Apple couldn't crack the phone if they wanted to.

And yes, I'm for the 2nd Amendment. The entire second amendment, including the often conveniently omitted bit about a well regulated militia.

But we digress...

You do realize that the Heller decision by SCOTUS clarified that the 2A is an individual right. So your well regulated militia comment means nothing. I AM a 2A supporter.

 

[iOSFangirl6001]

Apple encryption is so strong on iPhones that even the government can't get through means one thing to me. Apple needs to do digital security for all important government agencies. As we all know of the crazy amount of hacks been happening with these government agencies leading with lots of valuable data being stolen.

But wait why will government agencies want apple to strengthen their security if in turn they will ask them to break the encryption to find out what an employee was doing when they have a falling out. At one time everyone including the government praised blackberry for strong impenetrable encryption. Now they wanted the same thing with Apple but now Apple made the encryption too strong so they need a back door or help getting in.

This country government is a hot mess!

Just think if Apple did security encryption for ( insert EVERY Major chain, bank or business that's been hacked in the last decade ) as well as offered services like life lock against identity theft? They'd totally be set financially till like the end of time against any financial losses or sales declines
[doublepost=1455693237][/doublepost]

Apple didn't create the encryption.
The most secure hash to date is SHA256. Currently no collisions for SHA256.
Apple couldn't crack the phone if they wanted to.

I was stating that that's their mentality or misconception NOT Outright saying Apple created the encryption. It was more hypothetical or hypothesis than stating of fact with regards to creator.



Although now that you mention it the encryption had to come from somewhere? You'd think the Feds would seek out whoever actually is responsible for the encryption


Edit: and before you bring up the above post that was mostly in jest. Context matters

 

[firewood]

Guns shoot bullets, yes? I've worked around planes quite a bit. And one thing I know.... Bullets flying around on a plane in flight won't end well.

The goal isn't to end well. The goal is to end less badly than the plane crashing into a building containing many thousands of people. Trying to end well can end up that badly or worse.

 

[JamesPDX]

Hmm. So they have the shooter and they can't just get a warrant? https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2517
<< EDIT: Gah, nevermind! I skimmed right past the "A U.S. Federal judge today ordered..." part of the opening. So that's it. They either unlock the device or Apple is in contempt. I wouldn't be so sure that Apple can't unlock and decrypt the device. We just don't know yet. It will be an interesting few weeks ahead, that's for sure.>>

[doublepost=1455693488][/doublepost]

The goal isn't to end well. The goal is to end less badly than the plane crashing into a building containing many thousands of people. Trying to end well can end up that badly or worse.

-This is an inconvenient truth.

 

[Yumbo]

Even though there are things I don't like about post-Jobs Apple, their concern for privacy is one thing I have to give them credit for. I bet that they won't disable the auto-erase features and they certainly won't allow people without a password to access backuped data (assuming they save any of their data) just because of some stupid paranoid government.

There is no auto erase or wipe default.
There is auto-disable unless erase is enabled.
If not disabled, one simply needs to sync to a previously trusted iTunes library to create a backup before recovery mode restore, but any device can be restored to IF the backup itself was not encrypted.

Apparently iCloud backup was switched off, so chances are iTunes backup may have occurred which requires a user to trust the computer.
Find that computer and hope it doesn't have a user password, but that may not have an auto-disable, which therefore may be able to be guessed.

Other than that, no dice physically.

 

[JamesPDX]

I'm sure there are some pretty smart fellers at Langley that could "unflatten" an iPhone. They might want to do it in a big Faraday Cage, but they have great tools that you can't buy on iFixit, etc.

 

[ProjectManager101]

The FBI can unlock that phone, they just can not let you know they can.

 

[Mildredop]

This is tough for me. On one hand I want my device to be secure. One the other hand I want to stop terrorists etc.

This is my opinion. Law enforcement should be able to gain access if they legitimately need to. It'd be like a locksmith refusing to unlock the door to a criminal's lock-up. In my opinion, if you break the law, you lose your rights.

 

[palmerc]

The iPhone is encrypted with a combination of the passcode and hardware key. Without the auto-wipe, the FBI will be able to try all of the combinations until they find the right one.

But running all of the combinations on the phone itself, can take over 5 years for a six-digit lower-case password mixing numbers and letters.

So the FBI will need brute force it on a supercomputer, but that would require the hardware key, which is built into the phone. Apple does not know the hardware key. The FBI would have to extract the key by melting the plastic off the chip and hitting it with bursts of lasers to hopefully recover bits of the key.

With a supercomputer, the FBI could crack a simple six-digit numeric code in about 22 hours, but a complex alpha-numeric password could take over 10 years.

Quibbling over the details aside, basically the phone isn't going to be unlocked which is a good thing.

If the FBI is serious about unlocking this phone they need to offer an exploit X-Prize to get the contents. The joke will likely be on them though, since unlocking the phone may just reveal they deleted everything already.

 

[Eraserhead]

You do realize that the Heller decision by SCOTUS clarified that the 2A is an individual right. So your well regulated militia comment means nothing. I AM a 2A supporter.

5:4 and for the first time in history.

Once the Supreme Court makeup changes it is likely to be overturned given how embarrassing guns have become for America.
[doublepost=1455695977][/doublepost]

This is my opinion. Law enforcement should be able to gain access if they legitimately need to. It'd be like a locksmith refusing to unlock the door to a criminal's lock-up. In my opinion, if you break the law, you lose your rights.

Unfortunately with mathematics there is no way to just allow terrorists phones to be unlocked.

 

[iOSFangirl6001]

Couldn't they obtain phone call records without Apple?

In theory yes with a warrant or some NSA Help. Heck the NSA already gets lots of help from service providers. Calls, texts, data logs and in some cases E-Mail would be obtainable and have some kind of records related to em

There is a reason Burgers are made from Beef....

LOL you both are too funny... But you're not wrong lol

 

[palmerc]

This is 100% correct.

The problem is not who has access to our personal data, but bad guys having guns and good guys not having guns.

This is why terrorist attacks in SB, on US military bases, in England, France, and other countries has been successful. The bad guys kill without remorse and the population, having been disarmed, just die. In GB, you can't even defend yourself with a stick or you'll be sent to prison. Civilian disarmament is killing us all around the world.

Guns are not the issue. No matter how much you want to believe otherwise, arming the world is the opposite of the solution. Even taking your idea to its logical absurd conclusion won't prevent such terrorist actions since almost everyone would have a gun, not necessarily accessible and not likely trained to use effectively. Fact is, terrorism isn't an existential threat, it is a manageable problem like so many others.

 

[JamesPDX]

The iPhone is encrypted with a combination of the passcode and hardware key. Without the auto-wipe, the FBI will be able to try all of the combinations until they find the right one.

But running all of the combinations on the phone itself, can take over 5 years for a six-digit lower-case password mixing numbers and letters.

So the FBI will need brute force it on a supercomputer, but that would require the hardware key, which is built into the phone. Apple does not know the hardware key. The FBI would have to extract the key by melting the plastic off the chip and hitting it with bursts of lasers to hopefully recover bits of the key.

With a supercomputer, the FBI could crack a simple six-digit numeric code in about 22 hours, but a complex alpha-numeric password could take over 10 years.

I would start with "123456" and go from there. You'd be surprised at how lazy people are with passwords. Do you know what the most common password is after 1234? It's 5678, etc. I think this will end up one of two ways: Either people will get better at password selection, or everything will stay the same. But at least some of that data is going to be recovered.

 

[CarlJ]

I have no doubt the FBI are doing this, even if they have no need for the data, because they can wave the terrorism flag in this case - they want to get concessions on a case where they have sympathy that they will then proceed to use on... every future case or suspicion, no matter how trivial.

 

[palmerc]

5:4 and for the first time in history.

Once the Supreme Court makeup changes it is likely to be overturned given how embarrassing guns have become for America.
[doublepost=1455695977][/doublepost]

Unfortunately with mathematics there is no way to just allow terrorists phones to be unlocked.

The locksmith argument doesn't hold up. Locks aren't terribly secure to begin with and furthermore encryption isn't just a lock on a door as some would argue, it is math that effectively makes your data random. If a lock were encryption it the contents of a room would be filled with a seemingly random pile of atoms until the right key was provided and it would turn into an object or objects.

However, taking the lock argument further, in many cases cutting the lock off is harder than compromising the surrounding systems like the door hinges or walls. That is why the FBI needs to put together a data recovery team that basically operates like a team of hackers to develop exploits that bypass security protections. You know, like in the movies.

 

[Reason077]

But running all of the combinations on the phone itself, can take over 5 years for a six-digit lower-case password mixing numbers and letters.

So the FBI will need brute force it on a supercomputer, but that would require the hardware key, which is built into the phone. Apple does not know the hardware key. The FBI would have to extract the key by melting the plastic off the chip and hitting it with bursts of lasers to hopefully recover bits of the key.

Most iPhone passcodes consist of a 4-digit PIN. You can brute-force this pretty easily without specialist equipment, if you have unlimited attempts and the auto-erase feature is disabled.

 

[CarlJ]

That is why the FBI needs to put together a data recovery team that basically operates like a team of hackers to develop exploits that bypass security protections.

...you really think the NSA doesn't already have such teams?