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TBoneMac

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Are you worried that Diablo 4 will only be available on M1 macs and the people with say 2016-2017 etc macs will not be able to play it at all since it will not be developed for older macs?

I am worried that Diablo 4 will not be available at all on macOS period but I am also worried that it will only be for M1 macs.
 

SecuritySteve

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Jul 6, 2017
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Thus far, Blizzard has not updated the supported platforms - which is the consoles and PC (Windows) only. Don't count on D4 for Mac. Also given the graphics constraints, I doubt Macs from before 2016 will be able to play at even the lowest settings.
 
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TBoneMac

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Nov 26, 2017
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so basically it's not coming to macOS and they just aren't announcing it publicly because it will be really really bad publicity. I know that many of the windows users would boycott diablo 4 if they knew it was not released on macOS since Diablo has ALWAYS been on both windows and macOS (that was one of the unique things about Diablo/Blizzard from way back over 20 years).
 

SecuritySteve

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so basically it's not coming to macOS and they just aren't announcing it publicly because it will be really really bad publicity. I know that many of the windows users would boycott diablo 4 if they knew it was not released on macOS since Diablo has ALWAYS been on both windows and macOS (that was one of the unique things about Diablo/Blizzard from way back over 20 years).
Generally they believe that macOS gamers are too few and far between to be worth the cost of development at this time. The M1 (and M1+ chips for later products) may change that view. No one has a crystal ball that perfectly predicts the future, but at this time there is no active macOS development for D4. People have already largely reacted to this and it has blown over.
 

Realityck

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Nov 9, 2015
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Thus far, Blizzard has not updated the supported platforms - which is the consoles and PC (Windows) only. Don't count on D4 for Mac. Also given the graphics constraints, I doubt Macs from before 2016 will be able to play at even the lowest settings.
Blizzard has been vague
Together with our partners, we are planning to release Diablo IV on PC and consoles, including Xbox One and PS4. We are not currently announcing a release on any other platforms. "
By the time this comes out (2023), maybe Xbox One and PS4 won't support D4. :D
After all Xbox One S and the PS5 are almost here.
Based on the graphics engine from PC mags they saw D4 only as a medium performance requirements. I personally don't have a problem with Blizzard possibly not supporting x86 Macs as M1 and beyond will likely be a lot more powerful CPU and GPU if the rumors hold out. If so I be replacing more than one computer. Run D4 in windows emulation easily by then.

Its up to Blizzard to not make fools of themselves this time since this D4 has been delayed so long and still couple of years to go. ;)
 

SecuritySteve

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Jul 6, 2017
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Blizzard has been vague.
Well, last time I checked any time someone mentioned that they supported PC as a platform, unless explicitly stated, macOS is not included.

It hasn't been stated that they *won't* support macOS, but they haven't said they will support it as opposed to other console platforms. This is just the reality of macOS gaming until we get more AS machines that prove better gaming platforms than intel / NVIDIA / AMD.
 

Erehy Dobon

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Well, last time I checked any time someone mentioned that they supported PC as a platform, unless explicitly stated, macOS is not included.

It hasn't been stated that they *won't* support macOS, but they haven't said they will support it as opposed to other console platforms. This is just the reality of macOS gaming until we get more AS machines that prove better gaming platforms than intel / NVIDIA / AMD.
When a videogame publisher says "PC" they mean "PC running Windows on Intel/AMD CPUs". They don't mean Linux running on x86 hardware. They don't mean Windows running on ARM. They don't mean Raspberry Pi OS running on ARM hardware.

It is likely that they are just being diplomatic about it by not saying "It will not run on macOS." It's an implied NO not an explicit NO because the latter sounds more harsh.
 
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Realityck

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I'm not sure I understand this correctly, but are you saying that by 2023 you expect x86_64 Windows emulation on Apple Silicon to be good enough to play a game like D4 on it?
Yes, most certainly by the time D4 comes around in 2023. We haven't even seen the better Apple Silicon desktop/laptops yet. I also don't buy into D4 needing massive computer performance. The game mags showed a middle of the road Game PC worked. I read about ARM windows 10 port also besides running it as a windows VM.

 
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SecuritySteve

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When a videogame publisher says "PC" they mean "PC running Windows on Intel/AMD CPUs". They don't mean Linux running on x86 hardware. They don't mean Windows running on ARM. They don't mean Raspberry Pi OS running on ARM hardware.

It is likely that they are just being diplomatic about it by not saying "It will not run on macOS." It's an implied NO not an explicit NO because the latter sounds more harsh.
Exactly what I was saying.
 

GrumpyCoder

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I also don't buy into D4 needing massive computer performance. The game mags showed a middle of the road Game PC worked. I read about ARM windows 10 port also.
I'm not so optimistic, we'll have to wait and see. What we have right now is M1 running Windows ARM (not x86) and Windows ARM emulating x86 32-bit apps, not 64-bit. x64_64 Windows apps have absolutely horrible performance compared to 32-bit. MS is working on this, in fact they've been working on it for years. So the best that could happen would be D4 as a 32-bit app, but I'm not sure that's going to happen given the release date is still a few years out.
 

Realityck

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What happens to Blizzards plans if Microsoft brings its own Windows on ARM to multiple PC vendor licensee's and that takes off is another question?

It seems Blizzard in their original plans to release Diablo IV on PC and consoles, including Xbox One and PS4, didn't factor in that the whole marketplace is changing.

Anyway I agree we just need to wait and see what happens in the next 2 years as you say.
 

Erehy Dobon

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What happens to Blizzards plans if Microsoft brings its own Windows on ARM to multiple PC vendor licensee's and that takes off is another question?

It seems Blizzard in their original plans to release Diablo IV on PC and consoles, including Xbox One and PS4, didn't factor in that the whole marketplace is changing.

Anyway I agree we just need to wait and see what happens in the next 2 years as you say.
The marketplace is constantly changing. You make it sound like Blizzard is being caught off guard. They aren't that naive; this isn't their first rodeo.

Arm Macs have been rumored for years, ever since Apple released the 64-bit A7 SoC for iPhone in 2013. That was the big bombshell. The rest of the semiconductor industry was dumbfounded and speechless. The writing was on the wall that day.

By 2017 the A11 SoC on iPhone was an ARM big.LITTLE CPU with Apple's homegrown GPU. For sure there were prototype Apple Silicon Macs running macOS on A11 (or a variant) in a lab somewhere in Cupertino, California.

One thing for sure, there are over 100 million PS4 units out there; they will be there for years. Activision-Blizzard isn't going to throw away or trade that market for a hundred thousand Apple Silicon Macs. From a revenue generating perspective it makes FAR more sense for Activision-Blizzard to release Diablo IV on PS4/Xbox One than Mac, let alone the Apple Silicon variety.

Activision-Blizzard has their own forecast on next-gen console adoption and the falloff of legacy console usage but for sure it's not like every single PS4 will be replaced by a PS5 by 2023. Far from it.

In the same way, not every Intel Mac will be replaced by an Apple Silicon Mac by 2023 either.
 
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Realityck

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Blizzard Absorbs Activision Studio After Dismantling Classic Games Team - Bloomberg 1/22/2021
Video game publisher Activision Blizzard Inc. took another step in consolidating control over division Blizzard Entertainment, which once took pride in its autonomy, by shifting a 200-person design studio to its ranks.

The studio, Vicarious Visions, had been a subsidiary of Activision since 2005 and worked on franchises like Skylanders, Crash Bandicoot and Tony Hawk. It will now focus entirely on Blizzard’s franchises, including Diablo, instead of making its own games. Former Vicarious Visions studio head Jennifer Oneal will take a seat on Blizzard's leadership team, reporting directly to the president.
Changes to Blizzards operations.
 
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GrumpyCoder

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Nov 15, 2016
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What happens to Blizzards plans if Microsoft brings its own Windows on ARM to multiple PC vendor licensee's and that takes off is another question?
I'd guess nothing. The problem here is really that Apple with their AS has a system on a chip that can beat Intel/AMD CPU + Nvidia/AMD GPU. That is true for some models and might be more so once we get M1x, M2, M-whatever. The rest of the PC market have ARM and those might be very suitable for compute tasks, but the "overall" package of CPU and GPU performance is far from AS. The bigger question is, what happens if we can buy ARM PCs and put a AMD/Nvidia GPU in a slot with full support in Windows ARM. But we're far away from such a solution if it will ever exist.
So Windows ARM for everyone running on Dell, HP, Lenovo, whatever ARM based PCs is nothing to worry about, the performance simply isn't there.
One thing for sure, there are over 100 million PS4 units out there; they will be there for years. Activision-Blizzard isn't going to throw away or trade that market for a hundred thousand Apple Silicon Macs. From a revenue generating perspective it makes FAR more sense for Activision-Blizzard to release Diablo IV on PS4/Xbox One than Mac, let alone the Apple Silicon variety.
I think no one is talking about giving one thing up for the other. It's about offering an additional version for a different market. Mobile is the biggest gaming market (1. phone, then 2. tablet), followed by console and then PC (incl. Mac). Looking at the PC market, Macs have a share of less than 20%. So it's clear where the priorities are. For mobile one can always argue that a complex game like PoE isn't bet suited for the platform, given there's no mouse/keyboard support. That's why you mostly see "simple" games on mobile. So the big question is, is under 20% of the third most important market (actually the least important by revenue) worth it to port a game over.

Apple is creating a niche market. They dropped Nvidia and OpenGL, now they have completely abandoned PC-type hardware, so it becomes more and more difficult for developers to port things over. For many apps it won't be an issue, but for games, there's the initial hurdle to get over.

In the same way, not every Intel Mac will be replaced by an Apple Silicon Mac by 2023 either.
Of course it won't be replaced. But not supported anymore either. Just remember what happened when Apple switched from 68k to PPC and later from PPC to Intel. As soon as the full lineup was available with Intel chips, the PPC support was non-existent. They said 2 year AS transition, so that's late 2022. Give it one more year of software support for Intel and then Intel based Macs are dead. They'll still run of course, but no more updates.

Well, if that goes as usual in the gaming industry, then say hello to D4 in 2030. They might just rename it to Diablo Forver (and for those not old enough to remember, google Duke Nukem Forever).
 

Realityck

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Apple is creating a niche market. They dropped Nvidia and OpenGL, now they have completely abandoned PC-type hardware, so it becomes more and more difficult for developers to port things over. For many apps it won't be an issue, but for games, there's the initial hurdle to get over.


Of course it won't be replaced. But not supported anymore either. Just remember what happened when Apple switched from 68k to PPC and later from PPC to Intel. As soon as the full lineup was available with Intel chips, the PPC support was non-existent. They said 2 year AS transition, so that's late 2022. Give it one more year of software support for Intel and then Intel based Macs are dead. They'll still run of course, but no more updates.


Well, if that goes as usual in the gaming industry, then say hello to D4 in 2030. They might just rename it to Diablo Forver (and for those not old enough to remember, google Duke Nukem Forever).
All very pessimistic comments. This sounds like the same old complaining that Apple abandoned NVidia/Open GL from Hackatosh users or parties that still use old Mac OS sytem versions. The problem with that is Apple at already moving beyond being stuck to the past.

As far as abandoning intel based Macs and stopping MacOS updates that run on dual processor platforms. Again this is the same PPC to x86 arguments. Its not the same at all. It like comments that Rosetta 2 will only be supported for 2 years then it will be gone, again all based on Apple's PPC history. Don't you think Apple is a much more thoughtful company then that with large business customers, not to play to Osborn example of promoting obsoletion of products before they should go? :D

Seriously I doubt Tim Cook will disfranchise fortune 500 business clients using Intel Macs as long they represent a large part of their business base. This transition is based on learning from their mistakes during the PowerPC era as well as providing much improved computing silicon from ARM/TSMC and letting all the consumer/business clients lead Apple to how this proceeds. I hope they start caring about game development again, it maintains having fun with their computers.

As for say hello to D3 in 2030. The article sounds like they are recognizing that Blizzard game development needs to be accelerated. Moving a 200-person design studio against, "It will now focus entirely on Blizzard’s franchises, including Diablo" recognizes their blizzard business side lacks products/updates to grow and maintain players IMHO.
 
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GrumpyCoder

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This sounds like the same old complaining that Apple abandoned NVidia/Open GL from Hackatosh users or parties that still use old Mac OS sytem versions. The problem with that is Apple at already moving beyond being stuck to the past.
This is not about supporting old versions of macOS, but having these features in new versions. Ever since Apple dropped Nvidia it's been way more difficult to get things done. Look at anything that is deep learning related and see what the status outside of the Nvidia world is there. Not even consider Apple here, look in the PC world without Nvidia. You can throw PlaidML in the mix for AMD, solve a problem and create ten new with it. Non-Nvidia in the field is pretty much dead. Now add Apple to the mix and you're in a niche of a niche. There's a Tensorflow version for Apple M1 now, missing tons of features, but it's being worked on. What about all the other frameworks? Again, out of luck there. Sure, one can start everything from scratch and port over, let's do that for PyTorch or Coppelia Sim, AirSim and others. How much time and manpower is that going to cost? Isn't it just easier to buy a Dell box and clone a repo instead?

That's what I do, I'm using a >$30k Dell box under the desk to get work done, in addition to a GPU cluster for heavy lifting. So the question is simple, how much does the Apple "overhead" cost in comparison to buying different hardware and be done?

Of course x86 is outdated, it's 40 year of garbage dragged along. But it allows people to get a job done and far more utilized than anything Apple has. So as long as I don't have to do it, port everything out there to Apple. This never worked with Intel-based Apple with or without AMD and it never even worked with Intel-based Apple with Nvidia. Problems were easier to solve back then and the more Apple moves away from the mainstream, the more complicated things get. Here's a simple problem, let's say we have ported perfectly to M1, how do I get to play 500 or 1000 M1 machines to play together? With Nvidia, it's a "push of a button".
It like comments that Rosetta 2 will only be supported for 2 years then it will be gone, again all based on Apple's PPC history.
On what are you basing it then? On pure faith?
Don't you think Apple is a much more thoughtful company then that with large business customers, not to play to Osborn example of promoting obsoletion of products before they should go? :D
Where are those large business customers? And what do you define as "large". 10000 employees? 100k? We're blowing about 10 million on Hardware annually, not counting larger investments like GPU clusters. Apple is a niche.
Seriously I doubt Tim Cook will disfranchise fortune 500 business clients using Intel Macs as long they represent a large part of their business base.
Business and consumer are two totally different fields. A business that heavily relies on hardware is usually buying hardware for an average of 3 years. After that they're losing money and it's better to buy new one. That's exactly Apples two year transition period + one year of software support. A consumer is different, they'll switch eventually but normally later unless it's a enthusiast. Apple cares little about this.

In the end, this is going to boil down to a simple thing. How much does a port cost vs. how much it costs not to do it in terms of lost sales. For games, this can be relatively easy when using Engines that allow you to flip a switch and be done (well, not quite that easy). But of course that doesn't work when building in-house engines, because then it's not a feature of the toolstack, but something you have to do (see Nvidia example from above).
As for say hello to D3 in 2030. The article sounds like they are recognizing that Blizzard game development needs to be accelerated. Moving a 200-person design studio against, "It will now focus entirely on Blizzard’s franchises, including Diablo" recognizes their blizzard business side lacks products/updates to grow and maintain players IMHO.
When have you ever seen a group of 200 people join a game developing project to offer their support and things went smoothly? I have never seen or talked to anyone who knows of such a case. I know a few people (and with some of them I've studied), who work for Ubisoft, Sony, Nintendo, Capcom and EA. Some have worked on titles such as Assassins Creed and Anno and when you ask them, merging large teams usually means chaos. In some cases it means starting over from scratch. That's understandable, because the new guys usually bring new ideas, don't like how things were done, there are usually creative differences and so on. Telltale Games is a perfect example of this. I doubt they'll cancel the D4 project, but I can easily see a delay based on this news. Then again, Blizzard has a history of delaying games. The only case I know of where things are run "differently" is Valve, but there you don't really have fixed groups dedicated to a game.
 

Serban55

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Until Diablo 4...i guess you will be able to play Diablo Immortal since that will be based for arm architecture
 

GrumpyCoder

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With D2 Resurrected coming later this year and no macOS version in sight, I’m not getting my hopes up for a Mac version of D4. :confused:
 

Realityck

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With D2 Resurrected coming later this year and no macOS version in sight, I’m not getting my hopes up for a Mac version of D4. :confused:
What we need is to get those next generation Macs released with more powerful Apple silicon CPU/GPU out there and show the gaming community what's possible. This transition is not helping to convince gaming community that Macs are worth porting games until then.

The same old D2 is just for modern PC's, yawn. Below is their Diablo presentation from BlizzCon 2021:

 

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
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Until Diablo 4...i guess you will be able to play Diablo Immortal since that will be based for arm architecture

The Switch uses ARM. ARM isn't the problem. The Diablo 2 remaster is coming to Switch. You can bet Diablo 4 will be as well. Even Overwatch is running on ARM on the Switch.

Whatever Blizzard's issue is, it's specifically with macOS. The CPU architecture is not a problem.
 

Realityck

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The Switch uses ARM. ARM isn't the problem. The Diablo 2 remaster is coming to Switch. You can bet Diablo 4 will be as well. Even Overwatch is running on ARM on the Switch.

Whatever Blizzard's issue is, it's specifically with macOS. The CPU architecture is not a problem.
I hope that happens.
 

GrumpyCoder

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The Switch uses ARM. ARM isn't the problem. The Diablo 2 remaster is coming to Switch. You can bet Diablo 4 will be as well. Even Overwatch is running on ARM on the Switch.

Whatever Blizzard's issue is, it's specifically with macOS. The CPU architecture is not a problem.
The CPU architecture isn't a problem, the GPU is. Apple dumped Nvidia and now AMD for their own chip. They won't support OpenGL anymore and so the requirement is Metal. For someone using a off-the-shelf engine, probably not much of a problem. For someone using their own engine or a heavily customized one, this is a big problem.
 
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