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thisisnotmyname

macrumors 68020
Oct 22, 2014
2,438
5,251
known but velocity indeterminate
This post really demonstrates ignorance of the supply chain. Electronics are manufactured in China and the surrounding region because that’s where all the third party suppliers are. Apple isn’t going to recreate a trillion dollar network of third party suppliers in the United States.

It’s like saying: start a seafood restaurant in the Sahara desert. Not only would you have to import all the fish, you’d have to create manufacturers for plates, cups, cutlery, napkins, salt, a farm for the ingredients, you’d need to mine your own natural gas to run your stove... and so on. You’re saying: JUST OPERATE A RESTAURANT IN THE SAHARA! JUST DO IT! I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE DETAILS. But the details are important. You might be able to imagine how expensive it would get to operate that restaurant. Nobody could afford to eat there.

Apple doesn’t make iPhones and Macs in a vacuum. There are dozens of individual suppliers who have their own suppliers who may also have their own suppliers. That infrastructure doesn’t exist in the United States. Recreating it isn’t feasible and neither is it Apple’s job to do it. If Trump wants the United States to rival China in manufacturing, then he should create the policies and investments needed to build that industry in the US. But he’s not sophisticated enough to even understand that, let alone implement it.

I completely understand your point as it would relate to say the iPhone but this is about the Mac Pro - a relatively low volume product. They manufactured the nMP 6,1 in one of Flextronics' (well I guess they've officially rebranded as Flex these days) US based facility (I think it was the Round Rock plant). Flex has significant contract manufacturing capacity for this sort of device in the US already. There isn't a lack of infrastructure to make that happen. It's a financial decision, I'm not saying it's the wrong decision but it is financial in nature and not based upon feasibility.
 

fairuz

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2017
2,486
2,589
Silicon Valley
What a nonsense, why "bring them back" to the USA, most sales are outside of the US, Apple is a global company, they have no duty to manufacture in the States.

I really don't understand these comments....
Just picking you to reply to, lots of people with the same sentiment here.
Not all of them, just enough so that the devices bought in the US are made in the US. Or, whatever percentage of them, since some parts surely come from elsewhere. I don't think tariffs apply to goods that don't cross borders. Not that I agree with the tariffs, just explaining what the other people want.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,622
10,923
Under President Trump, US manufacturing jobs have hit their highest recorded level in the past 30 years. :)
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Manufacturing employment in the U.S. is at the same level as 69 years ago

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/m...-at-the-same-level-of-69-years-ago-2019-01-04

[doublepost=1564200002][/doublepost]

So much personal bias and misinformation in this I’m almost not sure where to start. Probably best not to, really. Trump Derangement Syndrome is very real.
Yeah, so much for debating. Just let the world burn into ashes. Why not? Hold your belief, and let inevitable outcome persuade you, Whether the outcome is good or bad. But wait, trump supporters automatically ignore facts and choose to wear coloured goggles to blind themselves. Ok, maybe we should not let the world just burn.
 
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fairuz

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2017
2,486
2,589
Silicon Valley
You could restrict yourself to buying things only made in your state to better stimulate your local economy. Your city. Perhaps your neighborhood. Your household! That would really maximize your prosperity, wouldn't it?

Of course the answer is no, and for the same reasons for which less-encumbered trade between nations is good (and, I would argue, very much not the short sighted position).
Nice, this is a better example than what I gave.
 

thisisnotmyname

macrumors 68020
Oct 22, 2014
2,438
5,251
known but velocity indeterminate
What is the difference between shipping individual parts from China to USA and shipping a fully assembled mac pro from China to USA?

There's absolutely a logistical difference between shipping every individual component half way around the world and one completed product. You have an order of magnitude plus of additional items now that need to be put on an airplane or take a slow ride in a ship to get to the assembly point. For the Mac Pro Apple has demonstrated it can do so in the past, it's not a zero sum game though to transport components vs transport completed product.
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,334
3,011
Between the coasts
So you get enjoyment from a political gotcha game involving tax/tariff semantics?

And you’re playing this game against a team whose already made a very public case, that these are retaliatory measures for Chinese tariffs on US goods?

Also wasn’t the Tea Party a past political trend/catchphrase like Blue Dog Democrats? That political targeting computer firmware may need to be updated.

Considering the political unrest in Hong Kong and systematic suppression inside mainland China, it’s weird that the political left isn’t crying for even more sanctions on China. Very strange, because the Democrat party often champions the economic ‘theory’ that more taxes (or tariffs as you pointed out) are a good thing.

Remember gotcha game rule #1, make sure to check the ground immediately under your own feet.

It seems everyone regardless of politics likes to play "gotcha." And trust me, your ground is no more stable than anyone else's. If mine is shaky because I used a widely-understood phrase that neatly defines a particular frame of mind about government and taxation, I'll stand my ground. Please, provide a label that is equally concise and equally understandable to all. Hell, people still toss around terms like New Deal Democrat and Reagan Republican, and look how long it's been! Meantime, the Tea Party was regularly acknowledged by our current President during the 2016 campaign. I know, ancient history.

I'm not saying that the stated purpose of retaliatory tariffs is, as you stated, retaliatory. Every tax requires its justification. Some justifications resonate with the right, some with the left. But the fact remains, tariffs are taxes, the cost is incorporated into the price of the goods, and short of a tariff so steep that no goods cross the border, tariffs raise revenues. You're free to disagree, but I seriously doubt nobody in the White House was aware that these tariffs would add funds to the treasury. "We can't do that, it's a new tax" doesn't seem to have won the policy debate.

With or without a tariff, one can choose whether to encourage China by purchasing goods made there. If you don't buy, you don't have to pay the tax. If you do buy... it's a tax, baby, because it didn't change your behavior.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,489
4,277
i

Therre you go, bringing facts into an internet fight...
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Why shouldn’t we pay more if it goes back in the pockets of our fellow Americans? Doesn’t that make sense? If I said I could build a sweat shop and charge super low prices or I could charge a bit more and have a factory in America and stimulate the local economy, which is the better option? Just because we can pay less, doesn’t mean it’s the best option. That’s just short term short sighted thinking
Except history shows consumers are not willing to do just that; if they were WalMart would not be able to drive small local owned business out of busienss; Home Depot and Lowes wouldn't do the same to the corner hardware stire, etc.
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They tell me to look at the border. When I ask why it has been ok for the same to happen for the last 20 years? No answer. I think people just hate to hate.

Interestingly enough, something like 70% of those in the US illegally did not come via the southern border, and often simply overstayed their visas. It's a political sideshow that looks good but won't really impact the overall problem.
 

DakotaGuy

macrumors 601
Jan 14, 2002
4,226
3,791
South Dakota, USA
There is so much margin built into these things they could easily "eat" the tariff instead of raising the price, but Tim Apple is hungry for more money so expect a healthy price increase. If they assembled the last generation Mac Pro in the US they could have assembled the new generation here. Charge them the tariff.
 

szw-mapple fan

macrumors 68040
Jul 28, 2012
3,483
4,344
Apple is the wealthiest company on this planet, things can happen if they want to do it.

Of course they can afford to if they went out of their way to create new facilities and create more incentives and training so more workers are capable of creating Apple products at the required scale. But why would they want to do it? It's much cheaper to produce in China even with tariffs. Companies have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profits. The "Assembled in the USA" label isn't worth as much as you think.
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,035
3,150
Not far from Boston, MA.
The dozens of people who were going to buy this are disappointed.

But really...good. Keep the jobs in the USA

Unfortunately, it's just an incontrovertible economic law that import duties lower GDP. So a few more jobs building Mac Pros is likely to be at the expense of more jobs doing something else. There may be some good reasons to go at China, but "more manufacturing jobs in the USA" is not one of them.

And in any case, why would low-skilled manufacturing jobs ever return from China to the USA, when there are so many other options, like building stuff in Vietnam or Mexico; or building stuff with robots?
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If they assembled the last generation Mac Pro in the US they could have assembled the new generation here.

They tried to assemble the last generation in the USA, but it was mostly a failure. This has been extensively reported, so you can google it.
 

nutritious

macrumors 6502
Mar 1, 2008
366
351
`


Agreed. For me I’d rather NOT buy a Made in USA Apple products as that would be tariffed undoubtedly where I live (outside the US). As Trump ****s up global world order and tariffs everyone left and right, does he truly believe the whole world would kneel down and pray to the god of murica? Of course all US built products will be tariffed equally, which hence will diminish sales.

What will happen when 45 gets re-elected and this madness goes on is: Apple will manufacture most in China and some products in other countries (Vietnam, Thailand, etc). The Made in China products will be sold globally, the Vietnam ones in the US until Trump decides to tariff those too. A Made in China product will always be cheaper in e.g. europe than a Made in USA one. And frankly, better too. Because China has built up expertise over decades. No one in the US has manufactured high end electronics in 20 years.


He doesn't care about the global order. He wants to destroy it. People think he's just being ignorant, but nope. This is his goal, for better or worse.
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Such is the ignorance of a large section of the American public, having no ideas of how the world and domestic economy works. Globalisation was pushed by the US for decades and massively benefited the US. Right now, US has climbed the economic food chain and can not return to its old state unless there's a revolution and crash the economy. Manufacturing jobs won't return to the US unless the cost of employment is at least halved, completely unpalatable for the US public and expecting to achieve such is but ignorance and wishful thinking. The world's manufacturing supply chain has long left the US and even China has been climbing and off-loading lower value manufacturing to developing countries. Looking from the outside, what Trump and his supporters are trying to do is but shooting itself in the foot as for those Brexiters. In due course, they'll crash the vibrancy of their economies by artificially binding their major corporations, losing international competitiveness. With these domestic attitudes and policies, Apple and other major US corporations will start to decline and the real suffering will be America. So dumb!

Globalization was partly a way of bribing western Europe and other countries away from the Soviet Union and also a way of protecting capitalism.

China was able to flourish under the American Global Order, and Trump and Co have had enough. China can use its own navy if it wants now to secure global sea trade routes. Let's see how well they do.

Most US trade is done within NAFTA, US is energy independent, and the US is the most food rich country in the world. The US doesn't really need the world, unlike China and Russia.

Will the US lose power in the grand scheme of the global order? Absolutely. Russia has already won the Middle East, thanks to Bush and Obama. Iran and Turkey are going to be the major players in the Mid East from this point forward and they are pretty much Russian allies. Europe is going to move the direction of some kind of coalition with China, Russia, etc to get around the SWIFT system in the long run.

But I say good! I like the idea of the US not being involved in global politics. We have everything we need here. We've been moderating world affairs since WW2 and we are all tired of it. Screw liberal hegemony!
 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,489
4,277
There is so much margin built into these things they could easily "eat" the tariff instead of raising the price, but Tim Apple is hungry for more money so expect a healthy price increase. If they assembled the last generation Mac Pro in the US they could have assembled the new generation here. Charge them the tariff.

Except they had issues getting some specialized parts in the US, which is one reason they stopped making them here.
[doublepost=1564255682][/doublepost]
He doesn't care about the global order. He wants to destroy it. People think he's just being ignorant, but nope. This is his goal, for better or worse.

Hardly. His goal is to enrich Trump, Inc and feed his ego. Everything is simply something to be used to those ends.
 
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menithings

macrumors regular
Jul 2, 2010
152
157
Los Angeles
I’m in the market for the new Mac Pro. Will be editing my latest feature film along with doing all the VFX, grading, and final 4K DCP output. But if the Mac Pro is forced to be made in the US then forget it. The last US-made Mac Pro was delayed too long, and had massive issues (especially the GPU) because US manufacturing is nowhere up to par with the Far East. Will switch to Windows (gross) before I waste my time and money on a crappy American made pro computer.

Hope all these one-dimensional political theatrics from this clown of a president will be over come November 2020.
 
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PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,226
Midwest America.
Thank you Mr President keep up the good work.

... because with your 'steady hand', no one has a clue what's going on, and how much money you've made.

They have cut so many regulations, I'm beginning to wonder where the money is going? He's already run up hundreds of millions on his golfing addiction. (Which he cheats at too)

I wonder if Vlad was over measuring the Oval Office for carpet and curtains. America still may not survive his first term, and people actually want him to have a second term?
 
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citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,904
25,840
There is so much margin built into these things they could easily "eat" the tariff instead of raising the price, but Tim Apple is hungry for more money so expect a healthy price increase. If they assembled the last generation Mac Pro in the US they could have assembled the new generation here. Charge them the tariff.

That is so funny! And so wrong.
 
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mikethemartian

macrumors 65816
Jan 5, 2017
1,483
2,239
Melbourne, FL
Trump is a hypocrite and it’s funny to see people here saying, “yeah! America!” When most, of not all, of Trump’s and Ivanka’s product lines are made in China. Hahaha. That’s the intelligence of the American people. Follow blindly. Don’t think.
Reminds me of that old Roman expression about all the masses need to be happy are “bread and circuses”.
 

Ghost31

macrumors 68040
Jun 9, 2015
3,341
5,149
Firstly, it's not a bit more, it's a lot more. And that other country is now giving us their labor instead of keeping it in their local economy. If you think of each country as a single entity, it's mutually beneficial if the laboring country can do it cheaper. If we cut off the trade, we get inflation.

I do want to see manufacturing jobs returning here, but only if it's because we've developed new automation to do it faster, not because of protectionism.

The one exception is that I'll approve of any action taken against China in particular, for many reasons.
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And why should we care?
It really doesn’t matter anyway as apple won’t be raising prices because that would really screw up their competitive advantage. So at this point it’s all just a bunch of people getting angry over the internet. I do wish more manufacturing would come back to America, but I don’t see that happening
 
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tridley68

macrumors 68000
Aug 28, 2014
1,756
2,537
... because with your 'steady hand', no one has a clue what's going on, and how much money you've made.

They have cut so many regulations, I'm beginning to wonder where the money is going? He's already run up hundreds of millions on his golfing addiction. (Which he cheats at too)

I wonder if Vlad was over measuring the Oval Office for carpet and curtains. America still may not survive his firs term, and people actually want him to have a second term?
Ol bummer was no different with all his lavish family trips paid for by the taxpayers his behind the scenes pay to play will come out.
 

cult hero

macrumors 65816
Jun 6, 2005
1,181
1,028
This is kind of annoying on Apple’s part. Given the high profit margin on these machines anyway, making them in the USA seems to make sense. They’ve been talking about diversifying their supply chain anyway and were already making them in the USA.

I wonder if the reason is purely profit margins or some other issue.
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Someone that can afford a $1,000 monitor stand can afford to pay the tariff.

A company that can actually sell a $1,000 monitor stand can afford to pay better than slave wages.
 

npmacuser5

macrumors 68000
Apr 10, 2015
1,772
2,008
Tariffs are taxes. Those that oppose tax increases use tariffs, fees, and other distractions, instead of the word taxes. Everyone feels better. The wallet in the end the same, lighter.
 

ugahairydawgs

macrumors 68030
Jun 10, 2010
2,959
2,457
Apple will simply increase Mac Pro’s price by the tariff amount.

Certainly their prerogative. Doesn’t really bother me...I’m not buying one either way.

They knew the tariffs were in place when they decided to do the manufacturing in China. This is the cost of that.
 
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