Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,233
2,548
15% for small developers for some time now.
A small part of overall revenue.
Large developers account for the lion’s share of revenue.

Apple provides much more to the entire ecosystem than Epic can or will.
True - they make the hardware and OS and should be compensated for that. They may even set a high price for them, as long as they remain competitive.

The issue is that Apple are leveraging their platform power to charge a share of revenue in other, more “downstream” markets - that are related but independent:
- mobile software applications
- in-app purchases
- media content subscriptions (Music, video, games)

…on which, on top of that, they’re competing with their own services.

Also, Apple benefits hugely from providing their ecosystem for (almost) free: Their market share in mobile phones and mobile phone OS - and mobile software application stores - is built on attracting developers of free-to-download apps.

They wouldn’t sell nearly as many iPhones, if consumers couldn’t get their bank’s app, their public transit app, Google Maps.

Even Spotify or Netflix:
👉🏻 the iOS platform, iPhone sales, Apple are hugely benefitting from bringing Spotify and Netflix content, comfortable user experience and their customers to iOS - for free, without Apple compensating them.
Yet when those companies want to bring iOS users to their subscription, Apple wants to charge a large percent forever….

I will be willing to have my socks knocked off in surprise if they offer anything close to 40% of the value Apple adds to the ecosystem.
Similar argument as Apple not remotely providing 30% of the value of a Spotify subscription.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: strongy

MrTemple

macrumors 6502
Jun 11, 2013
456
1,143
Canadian Pacific North Wilderness
Before Apple fans get confused again and start calling Epic hypocritical: the key difference is that Epic is not a gatekeeper and does not have complete control over game distribution. If developers don't like these terms they're free to use web distribution or alternative stores. That's how competition in a free and open market works.

Hogwash.

Gatekeeping has nothing to do with this.

You can collect millions for your app and don't ever have to pay Apple a penny beyond the $99 per year (for all your apps).

And you still get to have a HUGE chunk of your app's features literally written by Apple. Features that are not at all necessary to get your app into the app store and onto phones. Features that would take literally DECADES of dev-years to write yourself.

The only time you have to pay to use all that OPTIONAL code of Apple's is if you charge for the app itself or collect payments IN THE APP.

Epic provides no code for the games on its store. Just a storefront. And it takes a fairly reasonable 12% cut for that. You cannot opt out of that.

Apple provides TONS more to the apps in its store. And it takes a very reasonable 15% cut for the small to large earners and a fairly reasonable 30% cut from the huge earners. All those earners can avoid any fee if they opt out of the convenient methods for payment Apple provides (methods which literally changed the profitability of software development, because people just didn't pay for software in anything close to the same numbers before these methods).

And you're pretending there's no hypocrisy. 🙄
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OneBar and strongy

Ubuntu

macrumors 68020
Jul 3, 2005
2,140
474
UK/US
Hogwash.

Gatekeeping has nothing to do with this.

You can collect millions for your app and don't ever have to pay Apple a penny beyond the $99 per year (for all your apps).

And you STILL get to have a HUGE chunk of your app's features literally written by Apple. Features that are not at all necessary to get your app into the app store and onto phones.

The only time you have to pay for all that OPTIONAL code of Apple's you're using is if you collect payments IN THE APP.
I mean, the App Store & its review process are the very definition of gate keeping, come on.

Also, you make it sound like Apple gets nothing out of this. The iPhone would not be as successful without third party apps - its a mutually beneficial relationship.

You also make it sound like it's optional to collect payments in the app, which until recently wasn't the case. It's been mandatory for digital goods for years, with Apple only relenting slightly because of antitrust pressure.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: strongy

MrTemple

macrumors 6502
Jun 11, 2013
456
1,143
Canadian Pacific North Wilderness
So many patent untruths and straw-man arguments in one comment. Are you doing it on purpose or are you just blinded by your own dogmatic opinion?

I mean, the App Store & its review process are the very definition of gate keeping, come on.

It has nothing to do with the 15-30% fee. You can absolutely get past all the gatekeeping and never have to pay that fee.

Did you miss that? Or are you pretending that fact doesn't exist?

Also, you make it sound like Apple gets nothing out of this. The iPhone would not be as successful without third party apps - its a mutually beneficial relationship.

Bull. I never said anything close to that. Apple has a shared-effort, shared-success model. Are you suggesting they shouldn't get paid for all that optional work (literally thousands of dev-years that weren't required to make iOS or their apps work, but was truly just to make it easier and faster to make an app)?

You also make it sound like it's optional to collect payments in the app, which until recently wasn't the case. It's been mandatory for digital goods for years, with Apple only relenting slightly because of antitrust pressure.

Bull. It absolutely IS optional to collect payments in the app. I pay for Netflix outside the app and Apple gets exactly $0 from me for Netflix, while Netflix has decades of dev-years of functionality in their app that Apple wrote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OneBar and strongy

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,488
4,271
While I don't think a cosmetic store within a single game is equivalent to an App store for various reasons, this is a better angle at finding hypocrisy.
But most people in this thread are calling Epic hypocrites in response to a story about Epic charging a fee in the Epic Store.


My point was Epic has similar anti-competitve walled garden practices it criticizes.


Epic charging a fee is OK, and its only 3% below what most developers pay on the App Store.

Where has Epic criticized Apple for not allowing the sale of accounts? I must have missed that part.

My point was Epic is as protective its walled garden revenue as Apple.


Epic also has a one time fee option for the Unreal Engine. Also, end users buy operating systems ahead of time; they don't pay a hundred bucks for Unreal Engine.

Per Verge:

Fortnite developer Epic Games will charge non-game developers an annual subscription of $1,850 “per seat” to use its Unreal Engine as opposed to the royalty-based model it uses for game developers. The company announced the changes to its payment scheme last year, and now, it’s providing details on the plan, which will come into effect with the release of Unreal Engine version 5.4 in late April.

The changes don’t apply to game developers, who will continue to pay for access to Epic’s tools via a 5 percent royalty on products that earn over $1 million in lifetime gross revenue. Instead, the new per-seat (effectively per-user) subscription fee will apply to non-game developers such as those who use the Unreal Engine to make linear content such as film and television shows, infotainment systems in cars, or immersive experiences such as theme park rides that aren’t sold directly to customers.


Not exactly cheap, and the royalty for developers is forever.

It's the difference between selling a whole modified car and selling a modification to a car.
?

I was responding to the OP's point that developers will make more, and that I prefer competition lower costs rather than line developers pockets with economic rent.
 

yabeweb

macrumors 6502a
Jun 25, 2021
695
1,560
I'd look at Epic's actions with Fortnight as an example. Epic doesn't allow alternative stores in it, requires the use of Bucks, and the T&Cs outlaw the sale of accounts. Why can't I sell a Fortnight account to someone else and not have Epic suspend it?

Epic expects payment for use of the Unreal engine in many cases. Why should they get a forever cut from a game they didn't develop if it is successful?

Epic is doing similar things to protect its revenue streams while whining about paying Apple for doing the same things. There's nothing wrong with that, but find it hypocritical to complain about another company doing it when you do the same; and acting like you are on some great crusade for fairness when in the end it's about getting a bigger share of the pie.



Consumers don't benefit from lower prices due to competition.




Who knows?

But I suspect in the end Epic and other will still wind up paying Apple for access to the App Store an Apple's technology around it. It just remains to be seen how Apple does it to satisfy the EU. I hope smaller developers won't become collateral damage.
Never said they will… or did I? Where?
 

Ubuntu

macrumors 68020
Jul 3, 2005
2,140
474
UK/US
It has nothing to do with the 15-30% fee. You can absolutely get past all the gatekeeping and never have to pay that fee.
Again, it's not really about the fee to me. It's more the control.

Bull. I never said anything close to that. Apple has a shared-effort, shared-success model. Are you suggesting they shouldn't get paid for all that optional work (literally thousands of dev-years that weren't required to make iOS or their apps work, but was truly just to make it easier and faster to make an app)?
Nope, that's why I said it's a mutually beneficial relationship. I completely disagree that it's optional work - they need those APIs to be available in order to stay competitive.


Bull. It absolutely IS optional to collect payments in the app. I pay for Netflix outside the app and Apple gets exactly $0 from me for Netflix, while Netflix has decades of dev-years of functionality in their app that Apple wrote.

To start with, here's the requirement for IAPs:
3.1.1 In-App Purchase:
  • If you want to unlock features or functionality within your app, (by way of example: subscriptions, in-game currencies, game levels, access to premium content, or unlocking a full version), you must use in-app purchase. Apps may not use their own mechanisms to unlock content or functionality, such as license keys, augmented reality markers, QR codes, cryptocurrencies and cryptocurrency wallets, etc.

And then the classic reader app rule, AKA the "We've drawn some BS line in the sand so that the companies we can't afford to lose can stay in the App Store with some extra privileges" rule, which Netflix gets to enjoy.
  • 3.1.3 Other Purchase Methods: The following apps may use purchase methods other than in-app purchase. Apps in this section cannot, within the app, encourage users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, except as set forth in 3.1.3(a). Developers can send communications outside of the app to their user base about purchasing methods other than in-app purchase.
  • 3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps: Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, and video). Reader apps may offer account creation for free tiers, and account management functionality for existing customers. Reader app developers may apply for the External Link Account Entitlement to provide an informational link in their app to a web site the developer owns or maintains responsibility for in order to create or manage an account. Learn more about the External Link Account Entitlement.
  • 3.1.3(b) Multiplatform Services: Apps that operate across multiple platforms may allow users to access content, subscriptions, or features they have acquired in your app on other platforms or your web site, including consumable items in multi-platform games, provided those items are also available as in-app purchases within the app.

The last point is kinda nice for multiplatform apps until the part where you still have to offer IAPs anyway.

Hope this helps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sophisticatednut

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,379
2,160
Scandinavia
It can be used to make applications that appeal to the majority of the audience of smartphone users not the minority of the smartphone gamers.
The minority of smartphone gamers that just happen to account for 90% of the AppStore’s revenue?

That the UnrealEngine 5 can easily be used on ~100% of the computers on the market, while Xcode can only be used on ~15% or so of computers on the market?

Xcode that can only make games to only two systems?

while Unreal Engine 5 can make games to 100% of all systems and platforms that are capable of playing games?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jensend

Jensend

macrumors 65816
Dec 19, 2008
1,388
1,605
Apple provides TONS more to the apps in its store.
Your argument is basically that Apple provides X and Y, and Epic is only providing Y, so Apple’s higher cut is justified.
My position is that users already bought X when they purchased the device from Apple (X in this case being the OS). Apple wants to charge for X multiple times per user.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,233
2,548
It has nothing to do with the 15-30% fee. You can absolutely get past all the gatekeeping and never have to pay that fee.
So much disingenuousness in that statement, when Apple aren’t even allowing developers mention, let alone link your payment solution (in order not to have to pay that fee).

The only time you have to pay to use all that OPTIONAL code of Apple's is if you charge for the app itself or collect payments IN THE APP.
I just booked a train ticket in an app and the app developer collected the payment in-app. I don’t think the train company are paying Apple for that privilege.

or collect payments IN THE APP
👉🏻 Where else would developers LOGICALLY collect that payment if not in the app!?

Just as brick and mortar stores or hairdressers collect (most) of their payments IN THEIR STORE. Not at some other location across town that the hairdresser CAN’T EVEN TELL YOU in his saloon.

👉🏻 Collecting payments in-app is NOT OPTIONAL, if you want to provide an even half-decent end user experience. Let alone compete FAIRLY and on a level playing field with Apple’s competing service.

Calling it merely “optional” may be correct from a purely technical perspective - but is beyond disingenuous when it comes consumer experience and fair competition.

Gatekeeping has nothing to do with this.
Yes it is. Apple force developers to either put up with a totally sub-par nonsensical payment experience - or else pay Apple’s non-competitively determined commission.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sophisticatednut

Jensend

macrumors 65816
Dec 19, 2008
1,388
1,605
Per Verge:

Fortnite developer Epic Games will charge non-game developers an annual subscription of $1,850 “per seat” to use its Unreal Engine as opposed to the royalty-based model it uses for game developers. The company announced the changes to its payment scheme last year, and now, it’s providing details on the plan, which will come into effect with the release of Unreal Engine version 5.4 in late April.

The changes don’t apply to game developers, who will continue to pay for access to Epic’s tools via a 5 percent royalty on products that earn over $1 million in lifetime gross revenue. Instead, the new per-seat (effectively per-user) subscription fee will apply to non-game developers such as those who use the Unreal Engine to make linear content such as film and television shows, infotainment systems in cars, or immersive experiences such as theme park rides that aren’t sold directly to customers.


Not exactly cheap, and the royalty for developers is forever.
I hadn’t seen that. Was only announced last week and hasn’t gone into effect yet. That’s equivalent to what AutoDesk charges for 3DS Max and Maya. Older version can still be used free of charge for non-game developers (not that that will be a viable option for long)

But that’s not what I was referring to. They also have custom licensing options for bigger gaming companies which could include a flat fee option (but I’m not 100% sure)
 

OneBar

Suspended
Dec 2, 2022
575
2,001
Your argument is basically that Apple provides X and Y, and Epic is only providing Y, so Apple’s higher cut is justified.
My position is that users already bought X when they purchased the device from Apple (X in this case being the OS). Apple wants to charge for X multiple times per user.
Might want to check your EULA then. You don't own the OS on any Apple device. You don't purchase a license or anything. The only thing you purchase is the hardware that it's run on.
 

Jensend

macrumors 65816
Dec 19, 2008
1,388
1,605
Might want to check your EULA then. You don't own the OS on any Apple device. You don't purchase a license or anything. The only thing you purchase is the hardware that it's run on.
Then I suppose Apple could remove the OS from the devices people have already bought, and there’d be no legal recourse, because users didn’t buy the OS?
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,379
2,160
Scandinavia
Hogwash.

Gatekeeping has nothing to do with this.

You can collect millions for your app and don't ever have to pay Apple a penny beyond the $99 per year (for all your apps).

And you still get to have a HUGE chunk of your app's features literally written by Apple. Features that are not at all necessary to get your app into the app store and onto phones. Features that would take literally DECADES of dev-years to write yourself.

The only time you have to pay to use all that OPTIONAL code of Apple's is if you charge for the app itself or collect payments IN THE APP.

Epic provides no code for the games on its store. Just a storefront. And it takes a fairly reasonable 12% cut for that. You cannot opt out of that.

Apple provides TONS more to the apps in its store. And it takes a very reasonable 15% cut for the small to large earners and a fairly reasonable 30% cut from the huge earners. All those earners can avoid any fee if they opt out of the convenient methods for payment Apple provides (methods which literally changed the profitability of software development, because people just didn't pay for software in anything close to the same numbers before these methods).

And you're pretending there's no hypocrisy. 🙄
Actually epic do provide large amount of code and services to large part of the games in their store. Any game using the Unreal Engine is using Epics proprietary software.

It contains enormous amount of free content that is already made for developers, it’s used for movie making, animation, VFX etc and a large amount of plugins provided to ad more capabilities and integrate it with other programs you might be working with.

Would you say Apple allows developers to keep 100% of the revenue made the first 6 months?

IMG_4163.jpeg


This puts the high quality in normal peoples hands at no cost.
youtube.com/watch?v=1p7eF2o5y1E&si=iw3gLH3pHNh6D81K

Gets a long list of games since 1998 that uses the Unreal Engine 1-5
 
  • Like
Reactions: AppliedMicro

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,379
2,160
Scandinavia
Might want to check your EULA then. You don't own the OS on any Apple device. You don't purchase a license or anything. The only thing you purchase is the hardware that it's run on.
Might recommend you check the law. This isn’t legally supported and haven’t been enforced by any court yet🤷‍♂️
 

OneBar

Suspended
Dec 2, 2022
575
2,001
Might recommend you check the law. This isn’t legally supported and haven’t been enforced by any court yet🤷‍♂️
Show me your license for iOS or macOS then. I can show you licenses for all of my Windows versions all the way back to 98. It hasn't been enforce by any court because what, exactly, would the complaint be? Your honor, I didn't pay for the OS on the device that I purchased but I want to say that I own it...?
 

MrTemple

macrumors 6502
Jun 11, 2013
456
1,143
Canadian Pacific North Wilderness
Your argument is basically that Apple provides X and Y, and Epic is only providing Y, so Apple’s higher cut is justified.
My position is that users already bought X when they purchased the device from Apple (X in this case being the OS). Apple wants to charge for X multiple times per user.

You honestly don't know what you're talking about.

You're making the following assumption (correct me if I'm wrong):

Assumption: Apps are mostly only using the Apple frameworks and apis that Apple needed to make to create iOS and its own apps.

That assumption is WAAAAAAAAY wrong.

You truly don't understand that apple spends an incredible amount of developer time and money on fully optional convenience features for devs. These have nothing to do with the OS or Apple's apps. Apps make HEAVY use of these to do all kinds of semi-invisible things that make app development way easier (and apps way more functional) than even 5y ago.

Apple does this part of the work because they are reaping very good profits on the extra money invested in that development!

So Apple does do X and Y, but there's a Z, and that Z is HUGE and completely different from X and Y.

Z lets developers with almost zero effort do concurrency, operate correctly in different regions with different number and date formats, different language directions, lets apps background sensibly without losing data, offer low-networking modes, do crypto work, animations, and literally 1,000 other features.

Features that devs just don't have the expertise or the YEARS to implement without Apple's convenience apis.

It's naive beyond belief to assume Apple could slash its revenue and would then not correspondingly slash its budget on these convenience features.

In fact Apple (Android does this too) is CONSTANTLY growing and shrinking its team of devs doing this work. They tune the profitability margins. It's a trade-off that benefits us as users of the phones/apps, Apple in making its optimized profit, and developers who before this model basically made nothing at all for WAY more work.

15 years ago it was insanely harder to write an app that did 1/10th what current apps do. Things that you probably don't even realize apps do, things which take INSANE amounts of time and expertise, time and expertise which 95% of the app developers out there making your favourite apps simply don't have.

--

Here's a little eye-opener to give you perspecitve. This is one of those developer convenience features that is very, very tiny...

(This also happens to be relatively new in the past few years and is something that you just don't get on other platforms.)

Ask a dev friend how to deal with something as trivial as dates. Say, find a date 6 days from another date.

You think that's as easy as adding 6*24*60*60 seconds to the first timestamp? Oh poor child no. No, no, no.

Look into the complexity of dates and calendars and it will turn your crap white. It used to be absurdly difficult to do it well. (For ONE locale! Look into the differences between locales and your white crap will scuttle under the bed and cry.)

If you needed to have consistent date manipulation it was a nightmare. It took absurd amounts of research and a ton of coding to do the simplest thing (say make this appointment repeating every Wed at 5pm, THAT is far more difficult than you can imagine, it goes well beyond simply checking for leap days, especially if you want it to be robust).

Apple recently gave us a convenience api that makes NONE of that knowledge or expertise necessary. It took a ton of their time, but now we just say, essentially 'give me a date one week from this date' or '1pm on the second weekday of the month 6mo from now for the user's current calendar locale'. I cannot stress how difficult that would be to do properly with custom code (you would almost certainly drop in a library built by somebody else's volunteer work, which probably would be full of bugs, possibly be insecure, likely have little or no documentation, or worse, wrong documentation, wouldn't have the same locale abilities, and perhaps would only have a non-commercial license. Actually you'd have to spend quite a few hours determinign which of 5 different public libraries might have the right balance of those trade-offs. Honestly this process of finding and using third party frameworks is FRAUGHT.). Like I said... 👻💩

Aside, don't take my word for it, check out what Paul Hudson from HackingWithSwift has to say:

You see, working with dates is hard. Like, really hard – way harder than you think. Way harder than I think, and I’ve been working with dates for years.

(And if you're interested in learning Swift and building an app, believe me it's the PERFECT time for it, because Apple has made it so incredibly easy. And Paul's Hacking With Swift is a wonderful place to start, even if you couldn't tell the difference between a Double and an Int, and have never done any programming in your life. Check out his "Unwrap" app which is a fun teaching tool for many of the very earliest programming concepts. If you find it fun, which you might!, his 100 Days of Swift course will get you building an app that actually does something within a few hours. It truly is miraculously more easy now!)

Back on topic...

Now the calendar convenciences were to be fair a relatively tiny amount of effort for apple. Probably not much more than 1,000 dev hours to design, implement, unit test, document, and prepare WWDC presentations for. So, likely this TEENY feature cost Apple no more than half a developer year, say in the ballpark of $50k (though probably that's low, because a large part of the design and architecture of even such a simple feature would be done by a very senior architect who makes a WHOLE lot more than $100k a year).

But hoo baby, does it save so much grief from app developers. So much so, that we all quit using our own brittle logic or external frameworks and just use Calendar.current to add/modify/construct dates and date components.

And most importantly this is nowhere near required to make an app work well in the AppStore. This is an invisible convenience that makes developers lives TONS easier and very slightly improves quality of apps.

And EVERY YEAR Apple puts many convenience features like this that probably have 10-20x that amount of effort. Usually one or two a year which have 100-200x that effort (like Async/Await).

If you don't believe this. If you don't get some inkling of the sheer scope of this work. I encourage you to watch some WWDC videos from the past year. Come back here and report at exactly 3pm on the second weekday of next month as measured in Manila. 🤣
 
Last edited:

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,379
2,160
Scandinavia
I'd look at Epic's actions with Fortnight as an example. Epic doesn't allow alternative stores in it, requires the use of Bucks, and the T&Cs outlaw the sale of accounts. Why can't I sell a Fortnight account to someone else and not have Epic suspend it?
You can in EU, both epic and steam can’t legally prevent you from selling your account.

And in what way would you have an alternative store in a game? Should we have alternative stores in call of duty as well?
It’s disingenuous to think it’s comparable to an application store.
Epic expects payment for use of the Unreal engine in many cases. Why should they get a forever cut from a game they didn't develop if it is successful?
They don’t, any apps using the UE in the store pays 0%, and outside you pay only 5% on revenue earned after earning the first 1 million $
Epic is doing similar things to protect its revenue streams while whining about paying Apple for doing the same things. There's nothing wrong with that, but find it hypocritical to complain about another company doing it when you do the same; and acting like you are on some great crusade for fairness when in the end it's about getting a bigger share of the pie.
  • Epic allows companies to keep 100% of the revenue earned the first 6months in the store
    • Apple keeps 30% the first year
  • Epic allows all companies to keep 100% of revenue from In app purchases when using their own payment methods.
    • Apple takes 30% 27% the first year for a select group.
  • Epic allows you to link to alternative payment methods for a 0% fee
    • Apple doesn’t even allow that with rains regional exception.
  • Epic allows other stores to be listed for 0% fee
    • Apple doesn’t
  • Epic allows you to sell your Epic store listed game on anywhere for free
    • Apple demand 0.5€ per download after 1 year for free apps….
  • Epic have a 0$ memberships fee
    • Apple have a 99$ fee
  • Epic have a store that can list games for : Mac, windows, android, iOS( later this year) as a single cross platform purchase or as separate apps.
    • Apple only allow iOS and MacOS
  • Epic allows you to use any engine or tool to make your app
    • Apple requires Xcode exclusively
I fail to see the hypocrisy here….

Consumers don't benefit from lower prices due to competition.
How doesn’t consumers benefit from cheaper games? Is it not better to pay 30$ for a game instead of 60$?

If developers keep more of their revenue, it will allow them to make greater products and compete more effectively against competitors.
Who knows?

But I suspect in the end Epic and other will still wind up paying Apple for access to the App Store an Apple's technology around it. It just remains to be seen how Apple does it to satisfy the EU. I hope smaller developers won't become collateral damage.
With the CTF fee of .50€ smalls developers are the only ones who will get hurt.
My point was Epic has similar anti-competitve walled garden practices it criticizes.
As demonstrated Epic doesn’t practice any of the anti competitive practices that Apple does…
Epic charging a fee is OK, and its only 3% below what most developers pay on the App Store.

My point was Epic is as protective its walled garden revenue as Apple.
Epic protects their walled garden revenue as Apple…. By allowing developers to keep 100% of their revenue if they don’t want to use their payment method…
Per Verge:

Fortnite developer Epic Games will charge non-game developers an annual subscription of $1,850 “per seat” to use its Unreal Engine as opposed to the royalty-based model it uses for game developers. The company announced the changes to its payment scheme last year, and now, it’s providing details on the plan, which will come into effect with the release of Unreal Engine version 5.4 in late April.

The changes don’t apply to game developers, who will continue to pay for access to Epic’s tools via a 5 percent royalty on products that earn over $1 million in lifetime gross revenue. Instead, the new per-seat (effectively per-user) subscription fee will apply to non-game developers such as those who use the Unreal Engine to make linear content such as film and television shows, infotainment systems in cars, or immersive experiences such as theme park rides that aren’t sold directly to customers.


Not exactly cheap, and the royalty for developers is forever.
Well, you can choose not to use their tools and boom you pay 0% royalties and 0$ in monthly fees to Epic while selling in their store. You can’t opt out from apples fees 🤷‍♂️
 

MrTemple

macrumors 6502
Jun 11, 2013
456
1,143
Canadian Pacific North Wilderness
Actually epic do provide large amount of code and services to large part of the games in their store. Any game using the Unreal Engine is using Epics proprietary software.

It contains enormous amount of free content that is already made for developers, it’s used for movie making, animation, VFX etc and a large amount of plugins provided to ad more capabilities and integrate it with other programs you might be working with.

Would you say Apple allows developers to keep 100% of the revenue made the first 6 months?

View attachment 2361507

You realize that the cut they take from the Epic store is completely separate from the cut they take for using Unreal, right? 😂

Thank you for making my point that devs have to pay for the code they use. And that's a completely separate issue from the 'gatekeeping' of a storefront.

Each company has a different payment model.

Epic is charging just to be in the store, even if you DON'T use their code (again seems very reasonable to me!). Epic is waiving UE fees when they get more fees through the store (seems reasonable to me).

Apple is charging one fee to be in the store plus use their CoreTechnology, the sort-of equivalent of fully-optional convenience code like UE (seems reasonable to me). They waive that fee in many cases, even in many cases where Apple will make zero dollars, while the devs will make quite a lot (seems even more reasonable).

Epic is crying bloody murder that Apple gets to charge for the same things they do (seems 💯 hypocritical to me).
 

MrTemple

macrumors 6502
Jun 11, 2013
456
1,143
Canadian Pacific North Wilderness
With the CTF fee of .50€ smalls developers are the only ones who will get hurt.

Lol, wut.

You're going to have to explain what you consider a small developer to be. Becuase no small developer is ever going to pay that CTF unless they choose that model (by which they get to use the core tech and keep all their revenue) AND they suddenly get VERY popular and make a TON more money.
 

CarAnalogy

macrumors 601
Jun 9, 2021
4,204
7,736
You seem to have missed the part where I pointed out that even a gamer just stuck to Steam, they would still have access to a wider selection of good games than any single console store.

And Steam works across OSes. I primarily game on a Windows PC, but also occasionally on a MacBook Pro. Only a fraction of the games have MacOS versions, but for those that do, I can play them on the go and sync my process on the cloud. That is one less store and one less purchase that I need to make.

I understand not wanting to deal with multiple stores, but I currently do that because of value, not because of exclusivity.


Edit: also, even a consumer using the iOS app store may still has to deal with external accounts, like Netflix and Spotify.

I get it, and I like Steam. I think Valve (despite toying with our hearts with regard to sequels) has done great things for computer gaming.

I just miss the days where a store is not something taken for granted. It's one thing when it's games, but I don't want it to be this way for general purpose software.

It's the centralized control aspect I don't like.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.