EU Opens Non-Compliance Investigations into Apple, Meta, and Google

[klasma]

why? if it costs too much to do business and affects profits, then retreat could be a best case scenario.

I'm pretty sure that Tim Cook would get fired if he manages things so badly that he can't turn a profit in the EU — currently a quarter of Apple's total profits. And Apple themselves stated that their EU app store profits (the only thing that would suffer from sideloading) is merely 7% of their global app store profits, which in turn are only a fraction of the total profits.

 

[wbeasley]

It's not like Apple had a lot of choice there, unless Tim fancied a long stretch in prison.

Also Russia was worth very little revenue, and their currency collapsed so it was going to be worth a lot less.

What did you expect shareholders to say?

the point was they DID pull out of a market. so it proves they can and WILL if they want to.

 

[wbeasley]

I'm pretty sure that Tim Cook would get fired if he manages things so badly that he can't turn a profit in the EU — currently a quarter of Apple's total profits. And Apple themselves stated that their EU app store profits (the only thing that would suffer from sideloading) is merely 7% of their global app store profits.

so pulling out of the app store would cost not that much compared to the fine.

but EU dont work the fine on app sales. they want the whole company worldwide sales...

perhaps Apple could test the waters with stores closed for a week and see how the public responds.

 

[amartinez1660]

So you'd rather be told what you can and cannot do with the devices you paid for by the device maker?


Right on!

The U.S. should not have gone after Martin Shkreli. He absolutely should be alowed to raise drug prices by 5,400% if he wants to.

The U.S. should not be picking winners by spending taxpayer money to incentivize chip companies to bring chip manufacturing back to the U.S. and build advanced chip fabs. If China invades Taiwan and takes over Taiwan Semiconductor, preventing companies like Apple and Nvidia from getting their hands on advanced chips, we should blame U.S. chip makers like Intel and Global Foundries for not being competitive enough.

The U.S. tariffs placed on all foreign steel and aluminum (except from Canada and Mexico) is another case of picking winners and losers. Yes, having a strong steel and aluminum industry is vital to the U.S.'s national security, but if U.S. steel and aluminum producers can't compete on pricing with foreign products, it's just too bad. Right?

Those are potentially the positive sides (gotta see long term too), but not blind to the negative sides either though: bailing banks so that they can continue to rake in cash at the expense of all citizens and taxpayers who get their wages and savings eroded away is just not cool… you and me didn’t bet millions of dollars to see if we hit jackpot yet we pay for those loses because they insist on said picking who stays winning and who quits.

At the least, we can agree that it isn’t a truly capitalist system, as in that case businesses or endeavors that don’t work wouldn’t be bailed out by the “collective citizen on foot money” and would be left to fail.

 

[klasma]

so pulling out of the app store would cost not that much compared to the fine. [...] perhaps Apple could test the waters with stores closed for a week and see how the public responds.

The public would stop buying iPhones if they can't install third-party apps on it.

 

[deaglecat]

Good. These companies erect barriers that inhibit competition...and lets be honest ...with the iPhone, Apple has pretty much stopped innovating.

 

[Darren.h]

your having a bad year Apple. and its only just a quarter of the way over.

 

[JippaLippa]

The main issue as I see it is if you want the openness go to Android. If you like the walled garden you go with Apple. It is choice and the choice is there. I wish the EU would stop turning each company in to each other.

They want all the companies to be the same, whioch in the end will damage the user.
I seriously don't want iOS to become android, just òike I down't want macOS to become Windows and so on.

 

[AndiG]

On the other hand, give people a chance to install AI software or an AI assistant Apple can't deliver. If Apple ships Google Gemini and I prefer OpenAI - why not?

Let's see how this story ends. Microsoft seem sto have learned tis lessons - don't mess with the EU. And in turn Microsoft changed and is now one of the leadings companies in cloud or AI.

 

[wbeasley]

well if DMA says that you must enable competition to develop and publish Alternative app stores free of charge and restrictions and you put in a "Core Technology Fee" that makes most if not all competiting companies not want to develop an app store does that mean you are maliciously complying, not complying at all, or vaguely complying?
i dont know but if they did comply with how the DMA was worded there certaintly would not be this many investigations not even a full month into the law.
Im not picking only on Apple, it goes for every big tech company.
US is very liberal when it comes to data privacy, pro consumer protections, pro repair, pro user choice and many such things.
EU is not like that and it certantly cares more about its citizens in that regard.
What US population think is gov overreach is simply what US wants to do but cant because all of the lobbying big tech does so nothing changes and their bad business practices keep on running smooth.

I dont know how many of you are Software Engineers/Web developers but before DMA came into the force, Amazon Web Services where you can host and run your apps from charged CRAZY amount of $ if you wanted to move to competing cloud provider and when DMA came into full effect they fully complied with the law not only for EU customers but world wide and made it a lot better and simpler to move if that is your decision and even worked on becoming better competing service so business customers dont want to leave..
This is a prime example of how you comply with good faith and make your overall product better than the competitors in many regards.

What Amazon did with AWS they chose to do and has nothing to do with what Apple does.
AWS was obviously creaming users too much if they could afford to restructure pricing that much.
I've had a little to do with AWS for an app that was move to cloud. it had pluses and minuses. some issues were caused by the old code that didnt scale well to modern devices. they also couldnt give us a way to boot users off hogging licences.

the CTF I dont believe the EU set. Apple simply ditched the 3% they built in as payment processing and called the rest CTF. Now you could argue Apple is big enough not to be charged 3% but it's not hugely off the mark.

Even Epic have settled on a 12% fee after a year. What banks got in trouble here for using a honeymoon deal.
They are obviously trying hard to drum up business to any store they might release.

I find it hard to believe the EU is more consumer focused given the fine went into EU coffers not back to consumers

 

[amartinez1660]

why do FaceID need to be allowed for alt OSes by Apple?

The US blocked a blood monitoring hardware/software Watch feature because of supposed patent breach.
A device can have hardware that is selectively used by OSes.

Alt OSes are going to have a hard time coding for something they know nothing about. It's Apple's IP.

So I agree: allow a third option "I'm a masochist and I will write my own OS" button.

While I agree with the statements 100%, I don’t think it would fly at all with how iron hand the DMA and enforcers are.

This wouldn’t be the same “FaceID” though, it would be an “unlocked” mode, one that’s probably very unsecure and that’s basically public for everybody to play with, similar to jailbreaking a phone.

When choosing “I want to do with my device what I want and I’ll write my own OS for it” all traces of a locked down behavior, Secure Enclave keys, etc have to be completely smoked out of it.

Just to clarify, I would rather people just choose Android or anything else if they want a more open system, but I think the “I should be able to do what I want” crowd should get exactly what they wish for, and see later if they really truly wanted that.

EDIT: typos

 

[Lethal-Bacon]

What Amazon did with AWS they chose to do and has nothing to do with what Apple does.
AWS was obviously creaming users too much if they could afford to restructure pricing that much.
I've had a little to do with AWS for an app that was move to cloud. it had pluses and minuses. some issues were caused by the old code that didnt scale well to modern devices. they also couldnt give us a way to boot users off hogging licences.

the CTF I dont believe the EU set. Apple simply ditched the 3% they built in as payment processing and called the rest CTF. Now you could argue Apple is big enough not to be charged 3% but it's not hugely off the mark.

Even Epic have settled on a 12% fee after a year. What banks got in trouble here for using a honeymoon deal.
They are obviously trying hard to drum up business to any store they might release.

I find it hard to believe the EU is more consumer focused given the fine went into EU coffers not back to consumers

Absolutely no competing app store would charge 0-5% of the sales that would be crazy.
Epic charges 12% same they do on PC game store for game purchases.
But if you have a free game or free to download app and use your own payment processing provider for in app purchases then you give them 0%.
Apple takes like 30% for pay to install apps and 30% of all digital purchases/subscriptions.
I dont know about you but as a developer i would much rather release my app in Epic App Store than Apple's.
Especially if its free to download with some optional digital purchases in app.

 

[wbeasley]

While I agree with the statements 100%, I don’t think it would fly at all with how iron hand the DMA and enforcers are.

This wouldn’t be the same “FaceID” though, it would be an “unlocked” mode, one that’s probably very unsecure and that’s basically public for everybody to play with, similar to jailbreaking a phone.

When choosing “I want to do with my device what I want and I’ll write my own OS for it” all traces of a locked down behavior, Secure Enclave keys, etc have to be completely smoked out of it.

Just to clarify, I would rather people just choose Android or anything else if they want a more open system, but I think the “I should be able to do what I want” crowd should get exactly what they wish for, and see later if they really truly wanted that.

EDIT: typos

perhaps the non iOS FaceID could be like on other Android phones and just use the front facing camera instead of the special FaceID chip? Not accurate or secure but functional maybe?

Most of the "i'll do what I want" group are the few who used to jailbrake but got tired of the cat and mouse changes that kept breaking their break

 

[bcortens]

What Amazon did with AWS they chose to do and has nothing to do with what Apple does.
AWS was obviously creaming users too much if they could afford to restructure pricing that much.
I've had a little to do with AWS for an app that was move to cloud. it had pluses and minuses. some issues were caused by the old code that didnt scale well to modern devices. they also couldnt give us a way to boot users off hogging licences.

I can't believe you wrote this and then :

the CTF I dont believe the EU set. Apple simply ditched the 3% they built in as payment processing and called the rest CTF. Now you could argue Apple is big enough not to be charged 3% but it's not hugely off the mark.

This without irony.

The exact same logic you used with Amazon (that they are price gouging if they can afford to restructure pricing that much) applies to Apple. Apple could easily afford to remove their CTF given that they have said that only 7% of profits come from App Store revenue (as klasma pointed out above). They are price gouging and rent seeking and yet you are okay with Apple doing it and not AWS?

 

[wbeasley]

Absolutely no competing app store would charge 0-5% of the sales that would be crazy.
Epic charges 12% same they do on PC game store for game purchases.
But if you have a free game or free to download app and use your own payment processing provider for in app purchases then you give them 0%.
Apple takes like 30% for pay to install apps and 30% of all digital purchases/subscriptions.
I dont know about you but as a developer i would much rather release my app in Epic App Store than Apple's.
Especially if its free to download with some optional digital purchases in app.

Apple takes 15% for lots of things. Not 30%.

I doubt as a dev you would really be happier on the Epic store.
Less visitors. A small drop in fees. Having to handle all payments and refunds and complaints and marketing.

So many devs come on here and say even at 30% they are happy because the old physical store model used to chew up to 90% of the ticket price off them.

If you dont like the phone store you can always code for desktop and avoid app stores altogether...

 

[.wojtek]

Finally! You gotta love the EU for standing up for the consumers/users <3

 

[hans1972]

The U.S. should not be picking winners by spending taxpayer money to incentivize chip companies to bring chip manufacturing back to the U.S. and build advanced chip fabs. If China invades Taiwan and takes over Taiwan Semiconductor, preventing companies like Apple and Nvidia from getting their hands on advanced chips, we should blame U.S. chip makers like Intel and Global Foundries for not being competitive enough.


The U.S. tariffs placed on all foreign steel and aluminum (except from Canada and Mexico) is another case of picking winners and losers. Yes, having a strong steel and aluminum industry is vital to the U.S.'s national security, but if U.S. steel and aluminum producers can't compete on pricing with foreign products, it's just too bad. Right?

All of these things are bad if you believe in a free market with little government intervention.

A lot of the tariffs invoked by Trump and continued under Biden, just increases prices for US consumers as there often aren't alternatives in the US. It's especially true for tariffs against China.

The CHIPS Act isn't good either. If the US wants to compete with China and Taiwan on chip production, a lot more money is needed. The US simply don't have the workforce to handle the most advanced chip production. You'll end up with the less advanced chip production or factories full of Taiwanese people.

And the IRA is even worse than the CHIPS act with the exception of the parts which deals with infrastructure. It's basically an act which increases inflation and subsidise businesses, and many of these businesses aren't financially viable without subsidies. Things like battery production, solar cells and hydrogen plants.

 

[Klongeiger]

The board and obligations to the shareholders would never allow this

I am not so sure about that. If staying in the EU market runs the risk of paying more in fines than earning through sales and commissions, shareholders might actually accept leaving the market for good. I mean, is Apple even making 10 to 20% of its global revenue in the EU? And once the new stores stop paying their share, will the revenue still be worth the risk?

 

[Lethal-Bacon]

Apple takes 15% for lots of things. Not 30%.

I doubt as a dev you would really be happier on the Epic store.
Less visitors. A small drop in fees. Having to handle all payments and refunds and complaints and marketing.

So many devs come on here and say even at 30% they are happy because the old physical store model used to chew up to 90% of the ticket price off them.

If you dont like the phone store you can always code for desktop and avoid app stores altogether...

They take it for smaller business but after you start earning like 1 mil$ per year which isnt that hard its full fat 30%.
I mean i personally dont care that much because i make Web Apps and keep roughly 95-97% depending on payment provider.
If i or my company want to release a native app we would probably go with Progressive Web App or just tap to install from the website directly without any app stores(for EU because we dont really care about other markets)

 

[LV426]

I'm shocked. Shocked, I say.

Not really, tho. That these companies weren't actually following the rules properly was kinda clear (and yes people, the rules are perfectly clear). It's telling that Microsoft of all companies is not being investigated.

Microsoft were stung badly by the regulators when they tried to monopolise the browser market many years ago. Almost led to the break up of the company. Hell, they even sell Office for other operating systems after a good kicking. Maybe they learned a lesson.

 

[.wojtek]

The main issue as I see it is if you want the openness go to Android. If you like the walled garden you go with Apple. It is choice and the choice is there. I wish the EU would stop turning each company in to each other.

The problem is, because we basically have oligopoly, you don't have much choice...

 

[Wagbh]

Apple about to understand the FAFO acronym with their series of malicious compliance & other circumventing attempts...

 

[DaPhox]

How about the EU promulgate some laws instead of making it up as they go along. Apple was quick to implement USB-C and they changed the App Store entirely.

I mean, come on, what exactly do they want? As far as I can tell, all they want from Apple... is fines.

EU is a HUGE collossus to steer! They really need the money. Their staff need to eat! Foei gras etc...

 

[mike2q]

If a company can get around the laws on day 1, then the new laws were not written well. Better lawyers are needed to write tighter wording on the laws.

What are you even talking about? Apple was well aware of the EU's intent with this law as are you because the intent is clear and obvious. This isn't the US they're dealing with here and they can't just pull a "you didn't say Simon says" argument and expect it will end there. I often see comments on this issue saying Apple should leave the EU. Well, if they keep this garbage behavior up that's exactly what will happen but it won't be by Apple's choice. If Apple gets banned from the EU you can expect their stock price to tank and you can also expect other countries to follow what the EU started.

 

[wbeasley]

I can't believe you wrote this and then :

This without irony.

The exact same logic you used with Amazon (that they are price gouging if they can afford to restructure pricing that much) applies to Apple. Apple could easily afford to remove their CTF given that they have said that only 7% of profits come from App Store revenue (as klasma pointed out above). They are price gouging and rent seeking and yet you are okay with Apple doing it and not AWS?

i didnt say I agreed with what AWS did with pricing. they chose to changes prices significantly. they must still be making a profit. we dont know for sure. but they have done it.

Apple have set the CTF higher which people are complaining about. noone outside Apple know if that's gouging or not. it is what it is.

Apple will do whatever their financial guys say. They probably view it far more holistically that we ever know with some parts subsiding other lossy parts. Swings and roundabouts. And with digital rather than physical goods it all gets very hard to see costs and values. Apple are lucky they make hardware and software and can balance costs across a range of goods and services.