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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,510
4,291
This is then Apple failing to innovate to make the product better.

The flip side is if Apple did they'd be accused of driving small companies out of business by adopting their innovations.

Apple, for whatever reason, tends to build in a basic set of features in many of their ncluded apps; leaving others to build more feature rich products. The seem to target the casual user who wants to do a few things and never ventures beyond what the built in apps will do; and for many users that is quite enough. They can text friends, browse the web, check email, keep a calendar, etc.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,369
3,436
London
The flip side is if Apple did they'd be accused of driving small companies out of business by adopting their innovations.
I don't think they would.

Just look at the reminders app, the to-do ecosystem of apps is healthy.
 

huge_apple_fangirl

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2019
757
1,282
It’s a fragmented market you can’t easily compete in as every app is locked to their group. SMS is barely used today. And even tho you can register your WhatsApp, iMessage, Viber, WeChat, signal etc with your phone number you are still unable to send text communications to these groups without downloading the app and they can’t text me without me also downloading the same app.
“It’s a fragmented market” and “you can’t easily compete“ are mutually exclusive. You just rattled off a long list of successful messaging solutions. It seems there is robust competition going on.
Interoperability on the basic level would allow users more freedom to use any application according to its functions and custom protocols. If RCS( includes E2EE) was used as the fallback standard between different platforms (or something else) it would still allow iMessage to use it’s proprietary system to other imessage users and RCS to other phones or apps such as signal or WhatsApp instead of SMS or needing to download a new app.
Why should every application be interoperable? Should I be able to run my Windows apps on Mac? Should I be able to bring my Fortnite items to PUBG? There are technically ways to make this happen (eg WINE, NFTs) but ultimately, different companies made different products and I don’t see why they should be obligated to adopt a certain standard. Chat apps are no different. iMessage already does what you want in that it uses a proprietary protocol but falls back on SMS for users without it. Do you want to force WhatsApp to do that too? Or do you want a new, encrypted messaging standard? One that currently does not exist, so it would be odd to mandate it.
this was not a company decision but a worker’s group where everyone communicated with each other. Checking if someone could change days, get more supplies, ask for help etc etc. it was the group chat because not everyone have iPhones, not everyone have Facebook so everyone is forced to use WhatsApp instead of their preferred program
“Forced” to use WhatsApp? More like they had many options and found WhatsApp worked best for them. Also, remember that if a common standard is adopted, that will be what gets used in the group chat. It won’t be that you now get to use Signal, it’s that you’ll use Signal as a client for whatever that standard is. The benefit of Signal is its privacy focus. It will be harder to get people to use Signal and its encrypted standard in the future, not easier, if they can already text Signal from WhatsApp or whatever.
You can have two standards without sacrificing your advantage. iPhone have Bluetooth but can use the H1 chip for superior experience with beats and apple headphones. AirPods Pro can still connect to android or windows devices over Bluetooth and still use H1 chip for iOS unique features. S
Roll
Mac and iOS have Wi-Fi, but still have airplay that you can only use to other apple conpatib products and TVs as a uneque feature, security and selling point. Etc etc
And the EU Commission also thinks that Apple keeping certain hardware functionality to itself is anticompetitive…
They don’t need to use RCS. No standard is proposed, but the industry will have to decide for themselves as always. Eu have never mandated a security standard, they regularly dictate minimum standards or minimum requirements that periodically gets stricter in a bid to encourage industry stakeholders to collaborate and develop standards.
No standard exists, yet Apple and Meta are expected to comply in 3 months. That’s a shockingly short time. Shouldn’t the EU try to come up with a standard first?
Eu compared to USA don’t care to dictate how you do something, just provide qualifications you need to meet in whatever way you deep appropriate.
Forcing chat apps to use a standard that doesn’t exist sounds quite “dictated“ to me. The free market has spoken and given us many solutions. This edict is an attempt to create more competition in the client space but less in the protocols space. This could be disastrous for privacy. There could also be many issues down the line in upgrading or improving the standard. It just seems like someone said “you know, WhatsApp and Telegram both tex, why can’t they text each other“ and then mandated it with no thought as to how that would work technically, what the implications would be for chat apps going forward, or how that scenario came to be.
Eu talked with phone manufacturer to come together and try to and agree to standard port. And everyone in the industry signed this agreement. Now 10 years later EU have decided to force the TYP-C contact everyone else uses to be standard because apple failed to follow the agreement to work for a common charging solution. Apple could have proposed a new lightning port as the standard but didn’t. Now in the future the port will change when the group agrees to change it
When did everyone agree to a standard port? And why should everyone only be allowed to change it when the group agrees? What if someone has a cool idea but others in the group disagree? Then what?
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,369
3,436
London
When did everyone agree to a standard port? And why should everyone only be allowed to change it when the group agrees? What if someone has a cool idea but others in the group disagree? Then what?
A bit of history for you: In June 2009, many of the world's largest mobile phone manufacturers signed an EC-sponsored memorandum of understanding (MoU), agreeing to make most new data-enabled mobile phones marketed in the European Union compatible with a to-be-specified common EPS. All signatories agreed to develop a common specification for the EPS "to allow for full compatibility and safety of chargers and mobile phones."[1] 14 mobile phone manufacturers and technology providers signed the MoU – the original 10 signatories, Apple, LG, Motorola, NEC, Nokia, Qualcomm, RIM, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, and Texas Instruments as well as Atmel, Emblaze Mobile, Huawei Technologies and TCT Mobile (Alcatel).

You could have easily answered this yourself, had you done some research.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,311
24,047
Gotta be in it to win it
[…].

Apple, for whatever reason, tends to build in a basic set of features in many of their ncluded apps; leaving others to build more feature rich products. The seem to target the casual user who wants to do a few things and never ventures beyond what the built in apps will do; and for many users that is quite enough. They can text friends, browse the web, check email, keep a calendar, etc.
Basic stuff like afib detection, eck, fall detection, plus’s myriad of these innovations?
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,359
9,710
Columbus, OH
There is no legislation for interoperability of car engine bays, why not?
Probably because there are many competitors in the auto industry and a decision by one automaker doesn’t impact half the consumer market or more. Facebook in particular controls an enormous portion of the messenger space.

 

minimo3

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2010
811
976
There is no legislation for interoperability of car engine bays, why not?
Exactly, I don’t see the EU passing legislation that allows me to use any software I want in my car. Why can’t I use a custom 3rd party automated driving assistance program in a BMW? Why can’t I use a Mercedes climate control system in an Audi? Why am I stuck with the browser the manufacturer supplies? Shouldn’t there be interoperability in these ubiquitous platforms people use everyday? /s

Oh that’s right it’s because these are European companies so they need to be protected unlike the tech giants.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,369
3,436
London
Exactly, I don’t see the EU passing legislation that allows me to use any software I want in my car. Why can’t I use a custom 3rd party automated driving assistance program in a BMW? Why can’t I use a Mercedes climate control system in an Audi? Why am I stuck with the browser the manufacturer supplies? Shouldn’t there be interoperability in these ubiquitous platforms people use everyday? /s

Oh that’s right it’s because these are European companies so they need to be protected unlike the tech giants.
Is there a dominant market force between these in Europe?


There's some regulations there that vehicles must abide by
 

minimo3

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2010
811
976
Is there a dominant market force between these in Europe?
Fair enough, then we need to see interoperability legislation that allows running 3rd party apps/components in Airbus aircraft (the dominant market leader in commercial aviation)
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,369
3,436
London
I feel like half of the participants in this thread don't like this regulation because it's the EU proposing them.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,369
3,436
London
Fair enough, then we need to see interoperability legislation that allows running 3rd party apps/components in Airbus aircraft (the dominant market leader in commercial aviation)

General the components in Airbus and Boeing aircraft come from companies such as Honeywell and other avionics services. There's little customisation that's done outside of that, though some exist. Stuff such as flight control modes have shared infrastructure and non shared features as implementations.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,510
4,291
I don't think they would.

Just look at the reminders app, the to-do ecosystem of apps is healthy.

My point - exactly - Apple hasn't built out as feature rich built in apps, so there's plenty of competition in the marketplace.

Basic stuff like afib detection, eck, fall detection, plus’s myriad of these innovations?

Which is why I say tends. Apple may innovate when they move into a new product space, but as the product line matures it tends to be incremental and others bring out more innovative products, providing they can access the required APIs. But to my point - it will be interesting to see what Apple does vs. 3rd parties with the AW capabilities. One challenge is as a medical device it is regulated and approval costs a lot of money.

I feel like half of the participants in this thread don't like this regulation because it's the EU proposing them.

Perhaps. I'm concerned about the unintended consequences, with politicians clutching their pearls and saying "Well, we didn't mean that...and it's not our fault..." when things go awry.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,311
24,047
Gotta be in it to win it
Probably because there are many competitors in the auto industry and a decision by one automaker doesn’t impact half the consumer market or more. Facebook in particular controls an enormous portion of the messenger space.

As there are many competitors in the cell phone space. A decision by apple doesn’t affect a decision on an any other competitor.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,684
15,033
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
I imagine iCloud hooks will only be available for Apple apps. No syncing, no backup, nothing. The third party stores will have to do all of that. Gonna get pricey

Why?
Not saying they wouldn’t, rather trying to understand the why they wouldn’t. I am not seeing a downside to allowing across the boards backups.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,433
2,271
Scandinavia
“It’s a fragmented market” and “you can’t easily compete“ are mutually exclusive. You just rattled off a long list of successful messaging solutions. It seems there is robust competition going on.
Not if you are a smaller business
Why should every application be interoperable? Should I be able to run my Windows apps on Mac? Should I be able to bring my Fortnite items to PUBG? There are technically ways to make this happen (eg WINE, NFTs) but ultimately, different companies made different products and I don’t see why they should be obligated to adopt a certain standard. Chat apps are no different. iMessage already does what you want in that it uses a proprietary protocol but falls back on SMS for users without it. Do you want to force WhatsApp to do that too? Or do you want a new, encrypted messaging standard? One that currently does not exist, so it would be odd to mandate it.
As I said before, is any of that a core functionality? And they aren’t comparable with a communication standard and skin in random games.

hundreds of standards already exist, nothing new needs to be invented, why would companies need to know what technology to use when they can negotiate it between themselves.
“Forced” to use WhatsApp? More like they had many options and found WhatsApp worked best for them. Also, remember that if a common standard is adopted, that will be what gets used in the group chat. It won’t be that you now get to use Signal, it’s that you’ll use Signal as a client for whatever that standard is. The benefit of Signal is its privacy focus. It will be harder to get people to use Signal and its encrypted standard in the future, not easier, if they can already text Signal from WhatsApp or whatever.
Not at all as that’s not how it works. If I send a message to WhatsApp from iMessage, this doesn’t mean I must use WhatsApp’s protocol. And if I send it in reverse doesn’t mean I must use iMessages protocol. They could as an example use RCS as the standards for cross platform communication or use signals standard or even iMessage. It’s up to them to decide and negotiate.
And the EU Commission also thinks that Apple keeping certain hardware functionality to itself is anticompetitive…
Such as the NFT chip yes considering it’s an important part for banking, NFT terminals are extremely common in EU close to 100% have had it for a long time
No standard exists, yet Apple and Meta are expected to comply in 3 months. That’s a shockingly short time. Shouldn’t the EU try to come up with a standard first?
Eu doesn’t have the job to create standards for industries but to set the minimum bar after experts in the field have produced studies and recommendations of what to do, put it forth to a vote or renegotiate it’s content and allow the market negotiate the optimal solution, instead politicians doing it.
Forcing chat apps to use a standard that doesn’t exist sounds quite “dictated“ to me. The free market has spoken and given us many solutions. This edict is an attempt to create more competition in the client space but less in the protocols space. This could be disastrous for privacy. There could also be many issues down the line in upgrading or improving the standard. It just seems like someone said “you know, WhatsApp and Telegram both tex, why can’t they text each other“ and then mandated it with no thought as to how that would work technically, what the implications would be for chat apps going forward, or how that scenario came to be.
There will be no problem to upgrade the protocols. We have thousands of standards constantly updated by the market.
PCIe, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, usb, IP protocols, 4G, telecommunication etc etc many with apple and samsung google as members.

Privacy is already heavily regulated in EU so privacy concerns aren’t likely. And more are coming with inspiration from apple. But applied for everyone.

And why do you think using multiple standards is impossible? Why is apple able to support Wi-Fi AND airplay at the same time?
When did everyone agree to a standard port? And why should everyone only be allowed to change it when the group agrees? What if someone has a cool idea but others in the group disagree? Then what?
Well in 2009 as jlc1978 provided for you. and if you come up with an idea you can always implement it in parallel such as AirPlay.
Exactly, I don’t see the EU passing legislation that allows me to use any software I want in my car. Why can’t I use a custom 3rd party automated driving assistance program in a BMW? Why can’t I use a Mercedes climate control system in an Audi? Why am I stuck with the browser the manufacturer supplies? Shouldn’t there be interoperability in these ubiquitous platforms people use everyday? /s
Well because you already have the legal right to do what you want. And the core parts are already compatible following existing regulations. And none of them are dominating the market. But guess what happened with electric cars, they all had do use the same standard connector, even Tesla, but are allowed to include a proprietary solution in parallel
Oh that’s right it’s because these are European companies so they need to be protected unlike the tech giants.
These regulations affect European companies equally. Do you honestly think European companies have less rules and regulations to follow?
Fair enough, then we need to see interoperability legislation that allows running 3rd party apps/components in Airbus aircraft (the dominant market leader in commercial aviation)
This is already the case
Perhaps. I'm concerned about the unintended consequences, with politicians clutching their pearls and saying "Well, we didn't mean that...and it's not our fault..." when things go awry.
That is why politicians aren’t the ones creating the legislation but industry experts.
As there are many competitors in the cell phone space. A decision by apple doesn’t affect a decision on an any other competitor.
Yes apple do affect the market because iOS and Android have 99% of the market, 30-40% controles by apple.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,311
24,047
Gotta be in it to win it
[…]

Yes apple do affect the market because iOS and Android have 99% of the market, 30-40% controles by apple.
Decisions by apple don’t impact android in a negative way unless one is counting customers voting with their $$$, innovation etc. android based on how one determines the market share exceeds iOS. Non apple units sales exceed apple unit sales.
 

skottichan

macrumors 65816
Oct 23, 2007
1,102
1,283
Columbus, OH
You remember that the European market is larger than the US market, right ?
Unless you can find better numbers than I have.


"The high revenue generated from the Americas is largely due to Apple’s strong performance in their home market, the United States. Apple has the largest market share among smartphone vendors in the U.S. by a large margin. Although international sales have a growing share of Apple’s total revenue, the U.S. still counts for around 40 percent of Apple’s net sales. The U.S. also has the highest concentration of Apple stores, which is Apple’s own chain of retail stores that showcase and sell Apple’s various products including the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, among others."



 
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