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Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Oct 24, 2021
2,950
4,170
Right but with Advanced Data Protection at least it is encrypted even from Apple. Try getting that guarantee from Google or Microsoft. I guarantee they won't give you that guarantee.


And here is what the EFF thinks about it:


And I haven't been paranoid about what Microsoft has done so much to this point. I just didn't use insecure Onedrive at all and disabled all telemetry. :)

But I think their shift to co-pilot changes that. They aren't admitting what deep (probably kernel-level) changes they are making to accommodate training data accruing to Microsoft. I think they are going to not even come clean about what they are taking as they are "all-in" on co-pilot at this point. So feel free to use it if you want. I am also free to stick with the company that, while staid and somewhat boring, is willing to end-to-end encrypt user data--albeit optionally.

That is a difference in kind.
I completely understand everyone's justified concern about AI integration into the OS. Microsoft and Google seem to be leading but Apple is certainly going to implement something similar at some point.

Basically it would relegate you to some distribution of Linux as long as it doesn't have any AI incorporated in it's code.

So everyone saying I am going to use Apple so it doesn't bother me and essentially anyone using Windows has no idea what they are getting which again is false.

AI is the biggest thing since the discovery of oil. At least that is the expectation that a lot of huge players around the world are betting on. Since it is a global race and corporate race to acquire and implement the best and most useful AI I doubt you will be able to go far from AI in some way.

Any smartphone you are using that is recent within the last year or so already has AI integration and some level of AI has been integrated into iOS and Android for some time now. I don't hear anyone worried about their phones? I would be more worried about something I interact with daily and take it with me everywhere I go than my laptop but that is me.

I am not saying that your concerns or other people's concerns about AI integration and privacy are invalid. I agree that it will be a problem. On top of privacy who is to say what this AI will do. It can use predictive mapping to know what I am probably going to do before I do it. Is there a way that AI could influence my decision making or mood. There is a huge potential for abuse or unscrupulous actions if the AI were programmed in such a way.

What I am saying is that it is a little unfair to pick and choose one vendor and say that you will avoid them because of something all vendors are doing or getting involved with and will be doing. AI in operating systems will need some type of regulation at some point. It is the wild West right now. So you got to just do your best to do what you can to mitigate issues as they arise. At least with a Windows device if I absolutely had to I could wipe the drive and use Linux. Linux distros may incorporate AI but there will be a bunch that don't and that should always be a choice. On Apple devices if Apple goes all in on AI or changes terms of privacy I have no where to go. I can use one or two Linux distros for Macs but they are not as easy to install as a Windows laptop.
 
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seggy

macrumors 6502
Feb 13, 2016
391
265
I'm sure Apple will phrase their data collection in a way that assures people who are Apple-first who don't bother to look further.

And as you effectively say, I'm sure what that means in practice wll be not that different to what's collected under Windows with whatever the future equivalent of basic telemetry goes.
 
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seggy

macrumors 6502
Feb 13, 2016
391
265
Okay? I didn't realize we were having an argument. You can only move goalposts in an argument. Gotcha. Hey, if you would prefer Google's approach go for it. I couldn't find anything on e2ee and Google--except for messages? So what is APP?
Could I suggest you DuckDuckGo (or whatever you use) a bit harder?

Anyway, I disagree on Apple being late to e2ee, since no one else offers it.
Feel free to edit any erroneous assumptions after you have.
 

eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68020
Feb 25, 2011
2,300
2,767
Could I suggest you DuckDuckGo (or whatever you use) a bit harder?


Feel free to edit any erroneous assumptions after you have.
You first. :) Mine were all proven correct once I understood the assignment. I don't know that you can say that.

Def mad props on DDG though. It's all I use! It's not perfect, but it's at least usable. Good idea. Thank you!

I would add that in this case I already used DDG and found out *gasp* that no one else besides Apple offers E2EE.
 

eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68020
Feb 25, 2011
2,300
2,767
I completely understand everyone's justified concern about AI integration into the OS. Microsoft and Google seem to be leading but Apple is certainly going to implement something similar at some point.

Basically it would relegate you to some distribution of Linux as long as it doesn't have any AI incorporated in it's code.

So everyone saying I am going to use Apple so it doesn't bother me and essentially anyone using Windows has no idea what they are getting which again is false.

AI is the biggest thing since the discovery of oil. At least that is the expectation that a lot of huge players around the world are betting on. Since it is a global race and corporate race to acquire and implement the best and most useful AI I doubt you will be able to go far from AI in some way.

Any smartphone you are using that is recent within the last year or so already has AI integration and some level of AI has been integrated into iOS and Android for some time now. I don't hear anyone worried about their phones? I would be more worried about something I interact with daily and take it with me everywhere I go than my laptop but that is me.

I am not saying that your concerns or other people's concerns about AI integration and privacy are invalid. I agree that it will be a problem. On top of privacy who is to say what this AI will do. It can use predictive mapping to know what I am probably going to do before I do it. Is there a way that AI could influence my decision making or mood. There is a huge potential for abuse or unscrupulous actions if the AI were programmed in such a way.

What I am saying is that it is a little unfair to pick and choose one vendor and say that you will avoid them because of something all vendors are doing or getting involved with and will be doing. AI in operating systems will need some type of regulation at some point. It is the wild West right now. So you got to just do your best to do what you can to mitigate issues as they arise. At least with a Windows device if I absolutely had to I could wipe the drive and use Linux. Linux distros may incorporate AI but there will be a bunch that don't and that should always be a choice. On Apple devices if Apple goes all in on AI or changes terms of privacy I have no where to go. I can use one or two Linux distros for Macs but they are not as easy to install as a Windows laptop.
Right, but being in the industry, it's comical how much raw stuff is being lumped under the umbrella of "AI"...

And I don't have a problem with properly implemented and sourced LLMs. I do have a problem with the nebulous nature of what copilot is. I also want to know why it is getting worse over time--which is really weird.
 
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seggy

macrumors 6502
Feb 13, 2016
391
265
You first. :) Mine were all proven correct once I understood the assignment. I don't know that you can say that.

Def mad props on DDG though. It's all I use! It's not perfect, but it's at least usable. Good idea. Thank you!

I would add that in this case I already used DDG and found out *gasp* that no one else besides Apple offers E2EE.

It's unsurprising where we are that the discussion goes like this.

Again - for the last time, I invite you to do your research so you can be better informed if you care at all about this sort of thing, as you apparently do. Google has had a program for (but not limited to) at-risk journos, etc from years ago. And when specifically talking about messaging, no serious person of that ilk is going to be relying on blue bubbles or RCS - they will use a messaging app with a security track record.
 

eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68020
Feb 25, 2011
2,300
2,767
It's unsurprising where we are that the discussion goes like this.

Again - for the last time, I invite you to do your research so you can be better informed if you care at all about this sort of thing, as you apparently do. Google has had a program for (but not limited to) at-risk journos, etc from years ago. And when specifically talking about messaging, no serious person of that ilk is going to be relying on blue bubbles or RCS - they will use a messaging app with a security track record.
This? This Program:


The one that normal people like me cann't possibly get? That's definitely the same as Advanced Data Protection from Apple.

Also, messaging apps aside (which I would need substantiated that "blue bubbles" aren't secure), what about the reset? It isn't clear from any of that on the website from Google that all of my files data, contact data, location data, etc., is E2EE. In fact, all it seems to help with is some DDOS stuff and a hardware key requirement?

I fully admit that I might be missing something though in my limited and simple-minded attempt at research, so please feel free to obfuscate the issue and tell me I need to do more research again. Or you could just let me know if I missed something. :)
 
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LiE_

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Mar 23, 2013
1,694
5,387
UK
Added some AirPods to my growing Apple devices today. Wife has also bought a pink 10th gen iPad 😁

Home automation is still fully google because it works well but I do have an itch to move to HomeKit devices at some point.

Here’s the current setup.

DSCF1416.jpeg


Have the 15 M2 MBA in Midnight from work hooked up to my peripherals, working well. And have my 13 M1 MBA in an Apple leather sleeve in front of the printer.
 

andymodem

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2008
583
108
Baltimore, MD
Added some AirPods to my growing Apple devices today. Wife has also bought a pink 10th gen iPad 😁

Home automation is still fully google because it works well but I do have an itch to move to HomeKit devices at some point.

Here’s the current setup.

View attachment 2336829

Have the 15 M2 MBA in Midnight from work hooked up to my peripherals, working well. And have my 13 M1 MBA in an Apple leather sleeve in front of the printer.
In case you haven't seen this product. Use it myself and puts all my Google/Nest devices into the Apple Home app.

 

LiE_

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Mar 23, 2013
1,694
5,387
UK
In case you haven't seen this product. Use it myself and puts all my Google/Nest devices into the Apple Home app.


Yea I’ve been considering one for a while. One thing I can’t do is pull in the 2 Nest cams I have at my business.
 
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fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
1,789
1,487
Committed to the X100V, should be here tomorrow. They are really hard to find new at MSRP.

This post reminds me I need to make sure I sell my X100T soon. I have one in mind condition 1500 shutter count that I never use and the prices for Fujifilm x100 cameras are just insane on the used market. I'm seeing the X100T sell for $800 used which is mind boggling to me especially that I paid $1300 for it new years ago so impressive it held a lot of value. I assume the Fujifilm X100V successor to be announced soon so that would hurt my resale a lot so I need to act soon.
 

Silvestru Hosszu

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2016
347
222
Europe
I have the 100F among other cameras.
Very good camera, it really forces one to be creative and the OVF is a very nice touch.

Did not upgrade to the V because the features it has compared to F were not meaningful to me.
Chances are that you will like it a lot.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
15,932
2,151
Lard
Right, but being in the industry, it's comical how much raw stuff is being lumped under the umbrella of "AI"...

And I don't have a problem with properly implemented and sourced LLMs. I do have a problem with the nebulous nature of what copilot is. I also want to know why it is getting worse over time--which is really weird.
Shouldn't it be suggesting ways to fix itself?
 
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fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
1,789
1,487
I have the 100F among other cameras.
Very good camera, it really forces one to be creative and the OVF is a very nice touch.

Did not upgrade to the V because the features it has compared to F were not meaningful to me.
Chances are that you will like it a lot.


My issue is I already had a Sony RX1 and the image quality spoiled me heavily. Even though the RX1 is quirky with atrocious AF and battery life I still think it's one of my favorite cameras I have ever used. My end game theoretical compact camera would be a Fujifilm camera with that Sony FF sensor and Zeiss 2.0 35mm lens.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,627
43,630
Added some AirPods to my growing Apple devices today. Wife has also bought a pink 10th gen iPad 😁

Home automation is still fully google because it works well but I do have an itch to move to HomeKit devices at some point.

Here’s the current setup.

View attachment 2336829

Have the 15 M2 MBA in Midnight from work hooked up to my peripherals, working well. And have my 13 M1 MBA in an Apple leather sleeve in front of the printer.
Nice setup, what speakers are those?
 
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LiE_

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Mar 23, 2013
1,694
5,387
UK

Silvestru Hosszu

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2016
347
222
Europe
My issue is I already had a Sony RX1 and the image quality spoiled me heavily. Even though the RX1 is quirky with atrocious AF and battery life I still think it's one of my favorite cameras I have ever used. My end game theoretical compact camera would be a Fujifilm camera with that Sony FF sensor and Zeiss 2.0 35mm lens.
I also have a Leica Q, so I can understand your preference for FF sensor and Zeiss lens.
For me the ultimate compact would be a Leica Q with Fuji VF.
 

keithop

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2002
683
905
Added some AirPods to my growing Apple devices today. Wife has also bought a pink 10th gen iPad 😁

Home automation is still fully google because it works well but I do have an itch to move to HomeKit devices at some point.

Here’s the current setup.

View attachment 2336829

Have the 15 M2 MBA in Midnight from work hooked up to my peripherals, working well. And have my 13 M1 MBA in an Apple leather sleeve in front of the printer.

hows it been going? Any windows/android urges? or still apple-happy?
 
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keeper

macrumors 6502a
Apr 23, 2008
515
303
Added some AirPods to my growing Apple devices today. Wife has also bought a pink 10th gen iPad 😁

Home automation is still fully google because it works well but I do have an itch to move to HomeKit devices at some point.

Here’s the current setup.

View attachment 2336829

Have the 15 M2 MBA in Midnight from work hooked up to my peripherals, working well. And have my 13 M1 MBA in an Apple leather sleeve in front of the printer.
Must be time for a change surly?
 

eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68020
Feb 25, 2011
2,300
2,767
I have flip-flopped so many times LOL. I was about to go all in on Windows when I listened to a podcast with Paul Thurott--the Godfather of Windows in December. He called out Microsoft on their data-mining user data on windows. He said it has gotten so bad with co-pilot that he was starting to recommend a secure dns to block all the telemetry.

This led me to only use my RTX 4060 laptop for gaming and not much else. I went back to using my M1 13" Macbook Pro for all my PC/Mac needs. For on-the-go I have switched to my daughter's old 12.9" 2018 iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard. It's a little old and I will (hopefully) get a OLED 12.9" iPad Pro (with MacOS??????) to replace it later this year.

It has worked really well, honestly. I am going to start getting into some LLM stuff (which I have the RTX 4060 laptop for), but everything else is Apple these days.
 

AndyMacAndMic

macrumors 65816
May 25, 2017
1,068
1,611
Western Europe
I have flip-flopped so many times LOL. I was about to go all in on Windows when I listened to a podcast with Paul Thurott--the Godfather of Windows in December. He called out Microsoft on their data-mining user data on windows. He said it has gotten so bad with co-pilot that he was starting to recommend a secure dns to block all the telemetry.

This led me to only use my RTX 4060 laptop for gaming and not much else. I went back to using my M1 13" Macbook Pro for all my PC/Mac needs. For on-the-go I have switched to my daughter's old 12.9" 2018 iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard. It's a little old and I will (hopefully) get a OLED 12.9" iPad Pro (with MacOS??????) to replace it later this year.

It has worked really well, honestly. I am going to start getting into some LLM stuff (which I have the RTX 4060 laptop for), but everything else is Apple these days.

If your concern is privacy or data collection, I suggest you completely stop using any device that can connect to the internet. Wait until the 'godfather' of any company or OS stands up and tells you what data is collected. Every company (including Apple) is going to integrate AI into their products (or has done it already.. including Apple). And what does AI need to function? Data.

I am afraid your usage of Apple products to prevent that is not going to do anything to help in that matter.

Also Apple collects data already. Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming Apple here because it is just a sign of the times. Even if Apple collects less data than Windows at the moment, they collect enough already...

https://www.reviews.org/internet-service/what-data-apple-collects/#:~:text=Despite%20Apple's%20claims%20in%20the,user%20data%20(like%20Google).

Here a screenshot from the link above:

1708301162235.png
 
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Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Oct 24, 2021
2,950
4,170
I have flip-flopped so many times LOL. I was about to go all in on Windows when I listened to a podcast with Paul Thurott--the Godfather of Windows in December. He called out Microsoft on their data-mining user data on windows. He said it has gotten so bad with co-pilot that he was starting to recommend a secure dns to block all the telemetry.

This led me to only use my RTX 4060 laptop for gaming and not much else. I went back to using my M1 13" Macbook Pro for all my PC/Mac needs. For on-the-go I have switched to my daughter's old 12.9" 2018 iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard. It's a little old and I will (hopefully) get a OLED 12.9" iPad Pro (with MacOS??????) to replace it later this year.

It has worked really well, honestly. I am going to start getting into some LLM stuff (which I have the RTX 4060 laptop for), but everything else is Apple these days.
How much telemetry is your Mac sending? Hard to say. But it is tracking you. Any networked device is being monitoring and all are valuable for business.

You can take steps to lock down the telemetry and you don't have to use Co Pilot.

That being said, unless you use a privacy oriented distribution of Linux or BSD your telemetry data is being recorded and sold.

And....if you use any modern browser like Chrome, Edge, and many more your telemetry is being tracked. Use Google search? You get the idea. Of course you can use duck, duck go and Firefox on a locked down BSD machine but how much fun is that on anything other than a desktop?

So my point is that we are all being monitored, all the time if we are on the internet or connected to a cell connection no matter where we are or what type of device you use. You can use specific oriented privacy devices but they are not very practical in day to day use.

And if you were super paranoid you could use an onion router like Tor and a VPN to obscure your identity and location. But there are costs to using those things and most of the time not worth the trade off for average users.

Apple presents itself as a bastion of privacy and security and they are much better than the competition BUT they are not perfect nor untouchable. You are paying more for more security which can also lead to a false sense of security when the mechanisms of privacy are obscured by legal speak and thousands of lines of proprietary code.

I think the privacy advantage of Apple products is way over blown. They are clearly better but if you really want your data to be private you have to go further. On the security front MacOS is more secure by design of the Unix OS vs MS NT kernel and Windows BUT on the software layer Windows has drastically improved to a point any average user could use Windows and have access to a free and decent AV security suite in Windows security.

No OS is ever completely secure but modern Windows and Modern Mac OS is very secure. MacOS is by default much more private but not completely so.

I say use what you like best, take the steps you can in any OS to lock down telemetry as much as possible. Use alternate browsers and search engines. And take extra steps in rare circumstances if needed.
 
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