Flip Flopping between macOS and Windows

[Technerd108]

If your concern is privacy or data collection, I suggest you completely stop using any device that can connect to the internet. Wait until the 'godfather' of any Company or OS stands up and tell you what data is collected. Every company (including Apple) is going to integrate AI into their products. And what does AI need? Data.

I am afraid your usage of Apple products to prevent that is not going to help that.

Extremely concise and correct points here. Better than what I just wrote on and on about. Lol

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Extremely concise and correct points here. Better than what I just wrote on and on about. Lol

I already forgot you wrote about this subject in this thread too.... How time flies 😉

 

[SteveJawbs]

Until Apple allows a fully functional iPhone firewall, iOS can never be trusted. Tell me why Apple won’t allow a readable log of every outbound packet and destination IP from our iPhones like a desktop.

It’s criminal.

Totally off topic but relevant to the security touch points in this thread.

It blows my mind there is no iPhone firewall. Or net stat. Lol.

 

[Technerd108]

Until Apple allows a fully functional iPhone firewall, iOS can never be trusted. Tell me why Apple won’t allow a readable log of every outbound packet and destination IP from our iPhones like a desktop.

It’s criminal.

Totally off topic but relevant to the security touch points in this thread.

It blows my mind there is no iPhone firewall. Or net stat. Lol.

Very good point! I agree.

I mean, technically, iPhone has a basic firewall configuration built in but a customizable ui and option to turn on or off like on a Mac would be nice.

Safari is pretty locked down so I don't see this as a security issue but a data privacy issue which is what I was alluding too before by saying that Apple isn't as private as people may think and why does Apple want to obscure data traffic information leaving your device???

 

[eltoslightfoot]

How much telemetry is your Mac sending? Hard to say. But it is tracking you. Any networked device is being monitoring and all are valuable for business.

You can take steps to lock down the telemetry and you don't have to use Co Pilot.

That being said, unless you use a privacy oriented distribution of Linux or BSD your telemetry data is being recorded and sold.

And....if you use any modern browser like Chrome, Edge, and many more your telemetry is being tracked. Use Google search? You get the idea. Of course you can use duck, duck go and Firefox on a locked down BSD machine but how much fun is that on anything other than a desktop?

So my point is that we are all being monitored, all the time if we are on the internet or connected to a cell connection no matter where we are or what type of device you use. You can use specific oriented privacy devices but they are not very practical in day to day use.

And if you were super paranoid you could use an onion router like Tor and a VPN to obscure your identity and location. But there are costs to using those things and most of the time not worth the trade off for average users.

Apple presents itself as a bastion of privacy and security and they are much better than the competition BUT they are not perfect nor untouchable. You are paying more for more security which can also lead to a false sense of security when the mechanisms of privacy are obscured by legal speak and thousands of lines of proprietary code.

I think the privacy advantage of Apple products is way over blown. They are clearly better but if you really want your data to be private you have to go further. On the security front MacOS is more secure by design of the Unix OS vs MS NT kernel and Windows BUT on the software layer Windows has drastically improved to a point any average user could use Windows and have access to a free and decent AV security suite in Windows security.

No OS is ever completely secure but modern Windows and Modern Mac OS is very secure. MacOS is by default much more private but not completely so.

I say use what you like best, take the steps you can in any OS to lock down telemetry as much as possible. Use alternate browsers and search engines. And take extra steps in rare circumstances if needed.

Eh, we have talked about this before. You are not convincing me that Apple telemetry (with end-to-end encryption on user account data enabled especially) equals Microsoft's telemetry.

This can be determined by what the company says through disclosure. Apple says, "here is e2ee." Microsoft and Google say, nope, in fact, here is the exact opposite of that.

Here is that stuff I mentioned from Thurott saying, with little fanfare, according to Thurott, they are making billions off selling our data. Here is part of it (about Outlook):

New Outlook Decried as a "Surveillance Tool for Targeted Advertising"​

Thanks to new EU privacy regulations, the new Outlook displays a disturbing disclosure there that users elsewhere never see.

www.thurrott.com

And it is discussed in This Week in Windows in December (the first 25 minutes or so):

Word Doesn't Respect Me | TWiT.TV​

Outlook, privacy, and the terribleness of Big Tech
twit.tv

Finally, I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just as you will not be able to convince me on this. In fact, I still use Windows. Just not for anything that is privacy related...

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Until Apple allows a fully functional iPhone firewall, iOS can never be trusted. Tell me why Apple won’t allow a readable log of every outbound packet and destination IP from our iPhones like a desktop.

It’s criminal.

Totally off topic but relevant to the security touch points in this thread.

It blows my mind there is no iPhone firewall. Or net stat. Lol.

I agree, and just as bad that Google and Microsoft don't have anything like ADP for user data.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

If your concern is privacy or data collection, I suggest you completely stop using any device that can connect to the internet. Wait until the 'godfather' of any company or OS stands up and tells you what data is collected. Every company (including Apple) is going to integrate AI into their products (or has done it already.. including Apple). And what does AI need to function? Data.

I am afraid your usage of Apple products to prevent that is not going to do anything to help in that matter.

Also Apple collects data already. Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming Apple here because it is just a sign of the times. Even if Apple collects less data than Windows at the moment, they collect enough already...

https://www.reviews.org/internet-service/what-data-apple-collects/#:~:text=Despite%20Apple's%20claims%20in%20the,user%20data%20(like%20Google).

Here a screenshot from the link above:

View attachment 2350741

I read that article, but it didn't actually say how it collects anything. So unfortunately, that isn't very useful. Again, Apple is the only one that allows ADP for user data.

Edited to add: I also think it is extremely "false dichotomous" to say that if you connect to the internet it's all bad anyway. There is better and worse and that is a real thing. And with that I will leave you all to it...

 

[Technerd108]

Eh, we have talked about this before. You are not convincing me that Apple telemetry (with end-to-end encryption on user account data enabled especially) equals Microsoft's telemetry.

This can be determined by what the company says through disclosure. Apple says, "here is e2ee." Microsoft and Google say, nope, in fact, here is the exact opposite of that.

Here is that stuff I mentioned from Thurott saying, with little fanfare, according to Thurott, they are making billions off selling our data. Here is part of it (about Outlook):

New Outlook Decried as a "Surveillance Tool for Targeted Advertising"​

Thanks to new EU privacy regulations, the new Outlook displays a disturbing disclosure there that users elsewhere never see.

www.thurrott.com

And it is discussed in This Week in Windows in December (the first 25 minutes or so):

Word Doesn't Respect Me | TWiT.TV​

Outlook, privacy, and the terribleness of Big Tech
twit.tv

Finally, I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just as you will not be able to convince me on this. In fact, I still use Windows. Just not for anything that is privacy related...

Didn't convince me of anything.
Caveat Emptor is something most consumers seem to forget.

I am not convinced with modern hacking tools, iOS trojans for stealing FaceID, and state sponsored tools that any OS is safer than any other against these threats and it is multiple layers of security rather than a specific OS that will make the difference.

But if you want to live in a false sense of privacy and security be my guest.

And having this opinion doesn't mean that Microsoft, Google and Apple don't need to do a lot better in terms of user privacy. Until laws change in the United States to protect user data like a constitutional right I doubt anything will significantly change as there is too much monied interests in high places to keep things as they are.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Edited to add: I also think it is extremely "false dichotomous" to say that if you connect to the internet it's all bad anyway. There is better and worse and that is a real thing. And with that I will leave you all to it...

Collecting private data has no better or worse. In this day and age all big tech companies collect your private data. One collecting a bit less than another still means that private data is collected. IMO it is a false dichotomy to assume that collecting 'less' private data is better and 'more' is worse. Private data is private data regardless of the quantity.

Just use the best tool for the job... and simply get used to the fact that privacy is not a given anymore in this day and age. You don't have to like it (I certainly don't), but that's the era we live in now.
Your reasoning that you are safer with one OS over the other seems doubtful at best in this respect.

I reacted initially to your post in which you based your claim on a podcast about Windows and your assumption about Apple's safety. I only wanted to point out that it is not as straight forward or black and white as you assume. I still stand with what I said: that "the only way to prevent data collection is not to use any device connected to the internet.". That does not seem like a false dichotomy to me.

To avoid that this discussion evolves in a game of ping pong: I will leave you (and myself) to it as well ...

 

[turbineseaplane]

I finally took the plunge and have disassembled my Hack and am splitting back to discrete devices for Windows gaming and macOS usage

I have to say, Windows 11 is not at all bad -- I'm actually quite enjoying it as my primary these last few days while I'm migrating data around on the Mac side (just going all in on my 2015 MBP for macOS for now)

I think it helps immensely that I switched to Firefox awhile ago for the seamless cross platform experience

 

[LiE_]

hows it been going? Any windows/android urges? or still apple-happy?

I think I’ve broken the cycle 😅 we are a fully Apple house now which helps massively.

I have flipped a bit on my camera. I sent my X100V back and went down the gear rabbit hole. Got an X-T3 with the 33 1.4 and 18 1.4. Awesome kit but sat there looking at this massive camera thinking no way I’m taking this out with me even if the output is better than the X100V. So flopped back to the X100V and glad I did. Took it round London the last few days and it was a lovely experience. Documented it perfectly.

 

[maflynn]

I think I’ve broken the cycle 😅 we are a fully Apple house now which helps massively.

Good for you. I know there's always something better, sexier, more exciting around the corner, and we all suffer from the grass is greener syndrome but there's something to be said about being content.

 

[BMox81]

I think I’ve broken the cycle 😅 we are a fully Apple house now which helps massively.

I have flipped a bit on my camera. I sent my X100V back and went down the gear rabbit hole. Got an X-T3 with the 33 1.4 and 18 1.4. Awesome kit but sat there looking at this massive camera thinking no way I’m taking this out with me even if the output is better than the X100V. So flopped back to the X100V and glad I did. Took it round London the last few days and it was a lovely experience. Documented it perfectly.

Did you get rid of the Google Home stuff you had?

 

[LiE_]

Did you get rid of the Google Home stuff you had?

Left the Google Home stuff as is, it does a fine job and I can’t see much benefit changing.

 

[keithop]

I think I’ve broken the cycle 😅 we are a fully Apple house now which helps massively.

I have flipped a bit on my camera. I sent my X100V back and went down the gear rabbit hole. Got an X-T3 with the 33 1.4 and 18 1.4. Awesome kit but sat there looking at this massive camera thinking no way I’m taking this out with me even if the output is better than the X100V. So flopped back to the X100V and glad I did. Took it round London the last few days and it was a lovely experience. Documented it perfectly.

Well done you! I aspire to break that cycle one day

I love the fuji cameras too. Ironically my first slr back in the cough 80s cough, was a fujica stx1 which I still have. Still works and it's still brilliant (all manual of course). The X-T5 is an amazing bit of kit and I feel it has a very special look to its images but I must admit that recently I've just been taking my phone with me which I'm actually quite sad about I really do need to up my game on that.

 

[ghanwani]

Good for you. I know there's always something better, sexier, more exciting around the corner, and we all suffer from the grass is greener syndrome but there's something to be said about being content.

The contentment only lasts till the next product "innovation" cycle. I was a content all-Apple user till they screwed up their displays on their phones and laptops so they are now unusable for me.

 

[lcseds]

I'm heading toward the flip again. Just using my Studio and Studio display for web surfing really. Mostly using my M1 MBP 16. On the Win side, I am going to retire my 3 year old Lenovo i7 Tower (great system), 10-900K, 32GB, RTX 2080 Super for something a little more up to date for Flight Simulator. I was looking at a Alienware recently as they had a i9-14900f, 32GB, 1TB SSD, 1KW P/S and a RTX 4080. $2099 after $600 off. Good price considering the video card and the new R16 machines are getting much better user reviews. But, I waffled too long and it was gone. So I'm looking at just parts for a build now. Can only swing a 4070 Super configuration for the same price. I still prefer the prebuilt for the consolidated warranty and one phone call for anything that starts going south. And I've built over 100 systems (work and home). Something about opening one box, hooking it up and getting going in just a few minutes (minus Windows updates) appeals to me at my age now. No overclocking, super coolers, RGB, etc.

 

[maflynn]

The contentment only lasts till the next product "innovation" cycle. I was a content all-Apple user till they screwed up their displays on their phones and laptops so they are now unusable for me.

There's just not enough innovation in phones, and computers to really tempt me, especially at these inflated prices. I'm much happier with my older machine.

 

[keithop]

I still prefer the prebuilt for the consolidated warranty and one phone call for anything that starts going south. And I've built over 100 systems (work and home). Something about opening one box, hooking it up and getting going in just a few minutes (minus Windows updates) appeals to me at my age now. No overclocking, super coolers, RGB, etc.

glad someone else said this. Yep, feel the same way. Built hundreds over the years but it really is nice getting everything in a box plug in and go.

 

[Cape Dave]

glad someone else said this. Yep, feel the same way. Built hundreds over the years but it really is nice getting everything in a box plug in and go.

You could not pay me enough to build another computer

 

[Technerd108]

Eh, we have talked about this before. You are not convincing me that Apple telemetry (with end-to-end encryption on user account data enabled especially) equals Microsoft's telemetry.

This can be determined by what the company says through disclosure. Apple says, "here is e2ee." Microsoft and Google say, nope, in fact, here is the exact opposite of that.

Here is that stuff I mentioned from Thurott saying, with little fanfare, according to Thurott, they are making billions off selling our data. Here is part of it (about Outlook):

New Outlook Decried as a "Surveillance Tool for Targeted Advertising"​

Thanks to new EU privacy regulations, the new Outlook displays a disturbing disclosure there that users elsewhere never see.

www.thurrott.com

And it is discussed in This Week in Windows in December (the first 25 minutes or so):

Word Doesn't Respect Me | TWiT.TV​

Outlook, privacy, and the terribleness of Big Tech
twit.tv

Finally, I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just as you will not be able to convince me on this. In fact, I still use Windows. Just not for anything that is privacy related...

Who uses outlook? I use Gmail?

I don't care what you do or think. I just don't agree because Windows allows users, if they take the initiative to learn, can edit the registry to disable most Telemetry from Windows OS not an app. Any app you use on any device is collecting data. I can use Linux from a usb stick and not worry about telemetry.

Mostly though I can use various software to monitor network traffic and use a firewall to lock down individual processes or programs. Modern Windows firewall can do this for free.

I can use apps and websites I trust. I can use a VPN or other services that would provide better security and privacy than any device alone can.

Of course, this type of data collection for profit is an expected outcome of Windows as a service business model. I really hate it. I wish Microsoft would go back to charging for software releases again and let us by software again instead of renting on Office 365. Until that happens you can use work arounds.

Again, I know nothing I said convinces you of anything because your Mac is superior and there is nothing more to be said.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Who uses outlook? I use Gmail?

I don't care what you do or think. I just don't agree because Windows allows users, if they take the initiative to learn, can edit the registry to disable most Telemetry from Windows OS not an app. Any app you use on any device is collecting data. I can use Linux from a usb stick and not worry about telemetry.

Mostly though I can use various software to monitor network traffic and use a firewall to lock down individual processes or programs. Modern Windows firewall can do this for free.

I can use apps and websites I trust. I can use a VPN or other services that would provide better security and privacy than any device alone can.

Of course, this type of data collection for profit is an expected outcome of Windows as a service business model. I really hate it. I wish Microsoft would go back to charging for software releases again and let us by software again instead of renting on Office 365. Until that happens you can use work arounds.

Again, I know nothing I said convinces you of anything because your Mac is superior and there is nothing more to be said.

I will say that I have shifted my view somewhat in light of Apple's announcements on forthcoming AI. At least with my Windows 11 laptop, this stuff is somewhat out in the open, and can be disabled. We know that Apple will not reveal anything.

Couple that with a Secure DNS provider, and that may be good enough. I am rather disappointed with Apple's announcement and it is more-or-less putting them all on relatively equal footing. Yes I may have ADP with my user data with Apple, but with Microsoft (and the greater visibility into what is happening under the hood) I can minimize what is there in the first place.

And I really hope MS allows greater opting out for those who wish to do so.

 

[LeeW]

I just don't agree because Windows allows users, if they take the initiative to learn, can edit the registry to disable most Telemetry from Windows OS

Indeed, however, most users won't learn that. Why? Because they don't care. Most users are not ignorant of telemetry; they don't understand it but know it's there. They will leave it alone until it gets in their way, or they have a specific reason to be wary of it.

I don't believe most Apple users care or use Apple with privacy as a top reason. It's just a preference for them.

 

[LeeW]

You could not pay me enough to build another computer

I'm the opposite simply because I had mistakenly looked at the inside of many pre-builts and asked myself what type of glue they were sniffing when they built it.

And then the inside of mass produced boxes make me want to cry.

That's just me, though

Also, I like building pretty boxes I can't get elsewhere, like my current one. Much pretty

 

[turbineseaplane]

Indeed, however, most users won't learn that. Why? Because they don't care. Most users are not ignorant of telemetry; they don't understand it but know it's there. They will leave it alone until it gets in their way, or they have a specific reason to be wary of it.

I don't believe most Apple users care or use Apple with privacy as a top reason. It's just a preference for them.

Speaking of this..

Bless those that take the time to make great tools like this:

GitHub - Raphire/Win11Debloat: A simple, easy to use powershell script to remove bloatware apps from windows, disable telemetry, bing in windows search aswell as perform various other changes to declutter and improve your windows experience. This scr

A simple, easy to use powershell script to remove bloatware apps from windows, disable telemetry, bing in windows search aswell as perform various other changes to declutter and improve your window...

github.com

Drop dead simple