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gaximus

macrumors 68020
Oct 11, 2011
2,255
4,439
So sticking a weight to it will make it pass regulation? What stupid requirement? It produces the same amount of radiation as the other phone, the issue is that it's lighter, so its Watt/Weight ratio is off. This is why governments shouldn't create tech requirements.
 

ginkobiloba

macrumors 6502a
Jul 2, 2007
630
1,746
Paris
This legislation is based on quack theories.

Complete quackery.

But not surprising considering French government was subsidising homeopathy until recently and its most top selling product in pharmacies is a quack homeopathic remedy with no active ingredients.
Just because part of a population believes in something, doesn’t mean that scientists do too. Considering that the US has the biggest population ratio of any western nation that believe that the the earth is flat, that world leaders are mutant lizards/reptilian, and other mentally deranged theories, does that mean that US scientists are all quacks too ?
 

Dave00

macrumors 6502a
Dec 2, 2003
883
106
Pittsburgh
This is pseudoscience.

What, exactly, is the harmful effect of radio waves from a mobile device? Name a disease this causes. And how do they determine a "safe" threshold?

In my line of work I counsel people all the time on health risks from various exposures. In my board review there are two whole books devoted to this. Electromagnetic radiation from mobile devices is mentioned nowhere, nor do I counsel on this.

People are afraid of the word "radiation", without understanding that radiation is ubiquitous, and only certain wavelengths can have any biological activity. You're at far more risk from the radiation from the ultraviolet light you get every day from the sun than you are from radio waves.
 

msackey

macrumors 68030
Oct 8, 2020
2,514
2,939
The article picture does not look accurate. The report pertains to the iPhone 12 (the phone on the left) and not to the iPhone 12 Pro (which is the phone on the right). I suggest the author remove the iPhone 12 Pro picture.
 
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Bootleg Gucci

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2013
351
183
NoVA
Is there an SAR emission detector sold on Amazon? Otherwise France might have convinced me to upgrade 12PM to 15PM
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,383
7,221
Midwest USA
I too am concerned that my iphone 12 pro max is effected.
If you are concerned about this, then you should be concerned about any use of a wireless phone next to your head. Just because some bureaucrat somewhere, potentially bribed, decided on a number, does not mean that it is safe.
 

PJWilkin

macrumors 6502
Jun 24, 2010
265
761
Apple could always periodically retest the phones when new firmware/ios is released
and get independent testers involved

then they know if it breaches any standards/levels and take appropriate action

I suspect in this case Apple will need to do the above, and demonstrate either the French testers are wrong, or fix via software update (as a recall will be near impossible)
 
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Armada2

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2011
232
1,050
Ah yes! France needs extra money so they chose Apple to start fining them 😂
 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
5,672
6,953
This legislation is based on quack theories.

Complete quackery.

But not surprising considering French government was subsidising homeopathy until recently and its most top selling product in pharmacies is a quack homeopathic remedy with no active ingredients.
Seriosu question.
Can you please point me to at least two of the 'quack theories' to which you refer?
 
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LV426

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2013
1,838
2,272
So sticking a weight to it will make it pass regulation? What stupid requirement? It produces the same amount of radiation as the other phone, the issue is that it's lighter, so its Watt/Weight ratio is off. This is why governments shouldn't create tech requirements.
Watts/kilogram is a measure of how much power is being absorbed per unit mass of your body, nothing to do with the weight of the phone.
 

Piplodocus

macrumors 6502a
Apr 2, 2008
503
501
There's some total nonsense in this thread with some people clearly knowing nothing about SAR testing or legal limits.

SAR testing has nothing to do with causing cancer, so that's a red herring. SAR (specific absorbtion rate) is about the heating effects on the body/head. Radios cause heating of surrounding stuff due to absorbtion of the RF enegy. This is exactly how a microwave oven works: it's non-ionising radiation heating stuff/water/blood/animal-juice up, but obviously in the case of a microwave oven that's a far higher power in a farage cage for safety. But clearly no-one wants to cook their head well-done in a couple of minutes and suffer brain damage, so there's still heating effects from the lower power radios found in phones/laptops/etc, but at a far lower level.

So experts have worked together for years to work out what is deemed a safe level of heating you can have without it being detrimental to your health. There's worldwide limits on this set by FCC for the US and ETSI for the EU (amongst others). So it would have had to pass those limits when originally going on sale and usually confirmed by a 3rd party independent test house on behalf of Apple. So either the radio power has "accidentally"(?) been turned up over time via software updates, or Apple and/or the test house screwed the original testing, or failed to test it to all the different head/body requirements it should have been. Or the ANFR have screwed something up with the testing, but you can bet they'd be retesting multiple times if they found it to fail to be sure it's definitely failed before announcing this and going this far.

So this isn't ANFR/France being to blame for some weird law. This is France noticing that it fails the limits for the whole of Europe and any other parts of the world who share the same ETSI limits. This is obviously why they say they'll be sharing info with other regulatory bodies from other countries that use the same standards.

How did it happen? I dunno? But if it does fail, then Apple can likely check/retest and presuming they find the same results, turn the power down slightly.

So, should you all be terribly worried? Probably not massively. There's no magical limit where zero harm is caused or definite harm is caused. It's based on years of research to try determine what is a safe bet. So using this a normal amount is still probably better than being on a lower power phone for an excessive amount of time. It's like the speed limit: 30 mph isn't inherently guaranteed 100% safe, whereas 31mph will suddenly mean accidents and certain death! Sticking any radio/phone next to your head/in your hands will cause some heating effect. There's no way around it. Are the limits exact? No, of course not. They're no doubt set very much on the safe side. But there's a limit enshirined in law that's deemed safe, and Apple have to meet it, as does every other phone manufacturer.

Other thoughts: yes, the world is full of radio signals, but they die off roughly with the square of the distance (partly dependant on antenna directionality/gain). So a very high power transmitter 100m away isn't going to be nearly so bad for you as a low power one a couple of millimeteres from your head. So the "but there's lots of radios about and they're fine" argument is bollocks, because you're not holding the antenna or putting it right next to your head in those other cases.

And no, you don't have to make the phone heavier to pass the test. The W/kg is per kg of your head/flesh, not the phone. 😂

So if I had an iPhone 12 would I keep using it? Yeah. Anywhere I'm in good signal coverage it'll never be transmitting at max power anyway. If I'm somewhere with poor reception I'd probably try not chat for hours with it pressed as hard against my head as possible (like I'd probably do with any phone)! But if it breaks the law of what is legally deemed safe, it breaks the law. And ironically in this case, if you really are that worried, you can always make a tinfoil hat (but that could apply for any radio use)...
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,741
9,257
Jacques arriving at work with his iPhone 12...

outerwear-hazardous-material-suits-personal-protective-equipment-dangerous-goods-military-uniform.jpg
 

ikramerica

macrumors 68000
Apr 10, 2009
1,559
1,851
And your degree is in what professor.
What a silly comment. You don’t know their education level but we do know what homeopathy is, and the label on every US sold homeopathic product uses words like “may” and “could” and “might” and there are warnings all over the box about lack of medical testing or proof it works in any way.
 

8CoreWhore

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
2,654
1,191
Tejas
You may call me crazy but I’ve had headache from using cellular too much (when there’s no Wi-Fi). Luckily these days I’m almost always on Wi-Fi. I remember one year of radiation from Wi-Fi signal equals to like 40 mins of cellular. (Don’t quote me on that.)

As soon as Wi-Fi calling became available, I began using it by turning on airplane mode whenever I’m on Wi-Fi.

Looks like it’s not just my head going crazy.
If you use Airpods it isn't an issue.
 

VulchR

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2009
3,406
14,293
Scotland
...This is exactly how a microwave oven works: it's non-ionising radiation heating stuff/water/blood/animal-juice up, but obviously in the case of a microwave oven that's a far higher power in a farage cage for safety...
That you for the informative post, but I think you mean 'Faraday cage'. :p

0_Former-UKIP-leader-Nigel-Farage-watching-the-England-v-Belgium-World-Cup-match-in-a-bar-near-the-E.jpg

Image source

EDIT: Mind you, cages for certain politicians would enhance our safety and keep my blood from boiling...
 
Last edited:

macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,188
19,799
And they are so timely with their testing of consumer devices, lol! We're only on what, the iPhone 15 now, and a government agency just now tested and realized the iPhone 12 is dangerous? For real?
 

Animalk

macrumors 6502
May 27, 2007
471
19
Montreal Canada
There's some total nonsense in this thread with some people clearly knowing nothing about SAR testing or legal limits.

SAR testing has nothing to do with causing cancer, so that's a red herring. SAR (specific absorbtion rate) is about the heating effects on the body/head. Radios cause heating of surrounding stuff due to absorbtion of the RF enegy. This is exactly how a microwave oven works: it's non-ionising radiation heating stuff/water/blood/animal-juice up, but obviously in the case of a microwave oven that's a far higher power in a farage cage for safety. But clearly no-one wants to cook their head well-done in a couple of minutes and suffer brain damage, so there's still heating effects from the lower power radios found in phones/laptops/etc, but at a far lower level.

So experts have worked together for years to work out what is deemed a safe level of heating you can have without it being detrimental to your health. There's worldwide limits on this set by FCC for the US and ETSI for the EU (amongst others). So it would have had to pass those limits when originally going on sale and usually confirmed by a 3rd party independent test house on behalf of Apple. So either the radio power has "accidentally"(?) been turned up over time via software updates, or Apple and/or the test house screwed the original testing, or failed to test it to all the different head/body requirements it should have been. Or the ANFR have screwed something up with the testing, but you can bet they'd be retesting multiple times if they found it to fail to be sure it's definitely failed before announcing this and going this far.

So this isn't ANFR/France being to blame for some weird law. This is France noticing that it fails the limits for the whole of Europe and any other parts of the world who share the same ETSI limits. This is obviously why they say they'll be sharing info with other regulatory bodies from other countries that use the same standards.

How did it happen? I dunno? But if it does fail, then Apple can likely check/retest and presuming they find the same results, turn the power down slightly.

So, should you all be terribly worried? Probably not massively. There's no magical limit where zero harm is caused or definite harm is caused. It's based on years of research to try determine what is a safe bet. So using this a normal amount is still probably better than being on a lower power phone for an excessive amount of time. It's like the speed limit: 30 mph isn't inherently guaranteed 100% safe, whereas 31mph will suddenly mean accidents and certain death! Sticking any radio/phone next to your head/in your hands will cause some heating effect. There's no way around it. Are the limits exact? No, of course not. They're no doubt set very much on the safe side. But there's a limit enshirined in law that's deemed safe, and Apple have to meet it, as does every other phone manufacturer.

Other thoughts: yes, the world is full of radio signals, but they die off roughly with the square of the distance (partly dependant on antenna directionality/gain). So a very high power transmitter 100m away isn't going to be nearly so bad for you as a low power one a couple of millimeteres from your head. So the "but there's lots of radios about and they're fine" argument is bollocks, because you're not holding the antenna or putting it right next to your head in those other cases.

And no, you don't have to make the phone heavier to pass the test. The W/kg is per kg of your head/flesh, not the phone. 😂

So if I had an iPhone 12 would I keep using it? Yeah. Anywhere I'm in good signal coverage it'll never be transmitting at max power anyway. If I'm somewhere with poor reception I'd probably try not chat for hours with it pressed as hard against my head as possible (like I'd probably do with any phone)! But if it breaks the law of what is legally deemed safe, it breaks the law. And ironically in this case, if you really are that worried, you can always make a tinfoil hat (but that could apply for any radio use)...
A rare manifestation of informed common sense in this forum. Thank you.
 

CapitalIdea

macrumors 6502
Feb 25, 2022
357
1,568
Calling people Quacks was invented by John D Rockefeller, the man who murdered his employees at the Ludlow Massacre. He came up with this term because he wanted greater profits for his petrochemical pharmaceutical business. This required discrediting natural therapies which have been used successfully for over 5,000 years, such as in Chinese traditional medicine, or ayurvedic medicine. This was done via the Flexner report which he commissioned, as a way to legitimize destroying all institutions which did not fall in line with his dictates.

Some people claim that the Covid vaccine had secret nanobots in it that altered your DNA and let you be mind controlled by 5G. Are we not allowed to call them quacks because your feelings are hurt over Rockefeller?
 
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