France Orders End to iPhone 12 Sales Over Radiation Level Concerns

[MrGuder]

Would this be an issue for the US also?

 

[Tagbert]

Raise your pitchforks, your favorite trillion dollars company is under attaaaack ! MAYDAY !!!

Raise the pitchforks because... RADIATION!!!!!!

 

[Tagbert]

Calling people Quacks was invented by John D Rockefeller, the man who murdered his employees at the Ludlow Massacre. He came up with this term because he wanted greater profits for his petrochemical pharmaceutical business. This required discrediting natural therapies which have been used successfully for over 5,000 years, such as in Chinese traditional medicine, or ayurvedic medicine. This was done via the Flexner report which he commissioned, as a way to legitimize destroying all institutions which did not fall in line with his dictates.

None of that means that RF is dangerous. Nor does it mean that Homeopathy and related practices isn't quackery.

 

[iHorseHead]

In all honesty,should I be worried?

 

[HJM.NL]

This legislation is based on quack theories.

Complete quackery.

But not surprising considering French government was subsidising homeopathy until recently and its most top selling product in pharmacies is a quack homeopathic remedy with no active ingredients.

I am wondering if Apple is the only brand concerning this problem. And if so, why only the iPhone 12? 13 and up not having this issue?

 

[canonical]

This seems a vastly more important issue than removing leather from your product line, or using recycled copper as opposed to non-recycled copper (copper is copper).

 

[Expos of 1969]

This seems a vastly more important issue than removing leather from your product line, or using recycled copper as opposed to non-recycled copper (copper is copper).

Yes but this does not earn you plaudits and kudos and marketing points from the people who are anti leather and believe all your carbon neutral hype.

 

[laptech]

Getting headaches from the use of mobile phones is a well known fact within the mobile phone manufacturing industry. I used to work in this industry for roughly 12 years as a test operator and then a test engineer for a European mobile phone manufacturer and I can tell you for a fact under certain circumstances people do develop headaches from prolonged use of mobile phones. How mobile phone works has been explained over the years and but there is two operating functions of the phones that cause it to transmit at maximum radio wave power wattage which one is at the initial stage of making a call (hearing the phone ring of the person you are calling) and the second is roaming. When moving about the country the mobile phone needs to stay in contact with the cell towers and therefore when moving between cell towers, the mobile phone ramps up the power signal and thus the power wattage just for a few micro seconds to make sure the best possible chance of keeping cell connection. Once connection has been made phone's power wattage drops to normal use. It is the same when making a call, once the call is made the phones power wattage drops to normal use. Both instances occur for only a few micro seconds, transmitting at full power wattage then falling back to normal lower power wattage. Therefore, if you are someone who constantly makes lots of phone calls on their mobile phone whilst moving around the country, that mobile phone is going to be outputting maximum power wattage for continued amounts of time. Those workers who were responsible for doing simulated and live tests of the phones would constantly complain of getting headaches and migraines but at the time it was dismissed. When I worked at the company it was during the early 90's when portable mobile phones was starting to become the big thing. The phones we made would output 3watts max power.

Mobile phone manufacturers know their phones output strong radio waves BUT they do so for only a fraction of a second. This could be seen on specific pieces of test equipment that all the repair technicians had on their bench, the HP 9822 GSM RF Radio Test set. I have no doubt that there are more modern version of this test equipment in use today but back then the 9822 was THE piece of equipment to use when you wanted to test GSM and PCN mobile phones.

So, to sum up, the reason why mobile phone manufacturers like to say there is no problem with mobile phone radiation is because they know a mobile phone is not always using maximum RF power and when it does it only does so for a fraction of a second or even a micro second, not long enough to affect the human body. But someone who is constantly making phone calls throughout the day, know that could be a problem but manufacturers consider that the extreme end of mobile phone use because they know the huge majority of mobile phone users are not constantly making calls throughout the day, only a very very small percentage when compared to the percentage of mobile phone users.

 

[foobarbaz]

2. One of the top key facts highlighted — in bold — at the top of the report was this:

• “The electromagnetic fields produced by mobile phones are classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as possibly carcinogenic to humans.”

So, even back then, there was a recognition that negative health effects were an issue.

No, that's not what "possibly carcinogenic" means. It's not a recognition of negative health effects. It means there is insufficient evidence to rule out all carcinogenic effects and it should be further studied until they are.

Also on that same list: Coffee and aloe vera

Don't confuse it with the WHO's other list of "probably carcinogenic" things. Those include red meat, all beverages at 65C/150F, and working night shifts.

 

[ikramerica]

There's some total nonsense in this thread with some people clearly knowing nothing about SAR testing or legal limits.

SAR testing has nothing to do with causing cancer, so that's a red herring. SAR (specific absorbtion rate) is about the heating effects on the body/head. Radios cause heating of surrounding stuff due to absorbtion of the RF enegy. This is exactly how a microwave oven works: it's non-ionising radiation heating stuff/water/blood/animal-juice up, but obviously in the case of a microwave oven that's a far higher power in a farage cage for safety. But clearly no-one wants to cook their head well-done in a couple of minutes and suffer brain damage, so there's still heating effects from the lower power radios found in phones/laptops/etc, but at a far lower level.

So experts have worked together for years to work out what is deemed a safe level of heating you can have without it being detrimental to your health. There's worldwide limits on this set by FCC for the US and ETSI for the EU (amongst others). So it would have had to pass those limits when originally going on sale and usually confirmed by a 3rd party independent test house on behalf of Apple. So either the radio power has "accidentally"(?) been turned up over time via software updates, or Apple and/or the test house screwed the original testing, or failed to test it to all the different head/body requirements it should have been. Or the ANFR have screwed something up with the testing, but you can bet they'd be retesting multiple times if they found it to fail to be sure it's definitely failed before announcing this and going this far.

So this isn't ANFR/France being to blame for some weird law. This is France noticing that it fails the limits for the whole of Europe and any other parts of the world who share the same ETSI limits. This is obviously why they say they'll be sharing info with other regulatory bodies from other countries that use the same standards.

How did it happen? I dunno? But if it does fail, then Apple can likely check/retest and presuming they find the same results, turn the power down slightly.

So, should you all be terribly worried? Probably not massively. There's no magical limit where zero harm is caused or definite harm is caused. It's based on years of research to try determine what is a safe bet. So using this a normal amount is still probably better than being on a lower power phone for an excessive amount of time. It's like the speed limit: 30 mph isn't inherently guaranteed 100% safe, whereas 31mph will suddenly mean accidents and certain death! Sticking any radio/phone next to your head/in your hands will cause some heating effect. There's no way around it. Are the limits exact? No, of course not. They're no doubt set very much on the safe side. But there's a limit enshirined in law that's deemed safe, and Apple have to meet it, as does every other phone manufacturer.

Other thoughts: yes, the world is full of radio signals, but they die off roughly with the square of the distance (partly dependant on antenna directionality/gain). So a very high power transmitter 100m away isn't going to be nearly so bad for you as a low power one a couple of millimeteres from your head. So the "but there's lots of radios about and they're fine" argument is bollocks, because you're not holding the antenna or putting it right next to your head in those other cases.

And no, you don't have to make the phone heavier to pass the test. The W/kg is per kg of your head/flesh, not the phone. 😂

So if I had an iPhone 12 would I keep using it? Yeah. Anywhere I'm in good signal coverage it'll never be transmitting at max power anyway. If I'm somewhere with poor reception I'd probably try not chat for hours with it pressed as hard against my head as possible (like I'd probably do with any phone)! But if it breaks the law of what is legally deemed safe, it breaks the law. And ironically in this case, if you really are that worried, you can always make a tinfoil hat (but that could apply for any radio use)...

That’s a lot of words but it is tangential to the problem.

The French warning is about the phone being in your pocket, not up against your head.

So slowly boiling your butt or thigh or breast? Maybe. Hardly. Maybe like having a very mild heating pack there? Surely less destructive than ultrasound radiation.

Is it merely my well-founded paranoia bursting forth or is it a real possibility the conforming 4W/kg was sort of deliberately preset to conform but the company knew a higher 5.7W/kg could be slid in there over three years for better performance? I mean I carry my iPhone 12 in my front trousers pocket - mere inches away from ground zero.

I am done having kids. Blast away!

 

[ikramerica]

No, that's not what "possibly carcinogenic" means. It's not a recognition of negative health effects. It means there is insufficient evidence to rule out all carcinogenic effects and it should be further studied until they are.

Also on that same list: Coffee and aloe vera

Don't confuse it with the WHO's other list of "probably carcinogenic" things. Those include red meat, all beverages at 65C/150F, and working night shifts.

It’s like the California Prop 65 warning.

It is on every building, every business, and nearly every product they buy to the point that it must be ignored. And Californians can’t even stay home to be safe as they live in a Prop 65 hot zone, what with indoor air, mattresses, soaps, foods and drinks just waiting to infest them with tumors.

 

[vladi]

iPhones have always had a many times higher SAR rating compared to other manufacturers like Samsung which is interesting. But I'm surprised to see it went so high considering that they're tested before release and SAR ratings were already out?

Because either hardware gets worn out so it needs to boost to maintain performance or firmware bugs out and makes modem boost more than it needs to. Im guessing here.

 

[foobarbaz]

I am wondering if Apple is the only brand concerning this problem. And if so, why only the iPhone 12? 13 and up not having this issue?

It's not a brand-specifiec problem. Every device is tested like this many times over in many places over the world, including the iPhone 12. It has been in the market for 2 years and this is the first test that showed anything out of the ordinary.

The most likely answer is that the testing condition was slightly different, triggering an unusual (and unintended) behavior that hasn't been observed before. Or possibly a software update caused that behavior. I'm sure Apple is very eager to reproduce the problem (given the stakes) and we'll soon find out more. I wouldn't assume it happens regularly in the real world (especially with decent reception).

It's absolutely something that can be fixed in software. (It's just limiting power.) The only question is whether it will affect performance in real world or just lab settings.

 

[icymountain]

I did not expect SAR to go up with software updates... But it makes sense indeed, as the hardware control software is updated, probably optimised for better signal or other reasons. Still shocking side effect, if confirmed...

 

[DblHelix]

So concern over a phone that’s several years old and no longer sold. Ok.

 

[MallardDuck]

Watch out - it'll microwave your cat.

 

[one more]

It is. iPhone 12 and 12 mini

Ok, since I have been using a 12 mini since Dec 2020, what do I do now? 🤔 Conveniently, I also live in France, so will try to look into this a bit further, as this news has already made it as far as the BBC.

Edit: post #18 of this thread clarifies it all nicely, so only iPhone 12 (not 12 mini, nor 12 Pro) might be affected. The article also suggests it may be mitigated by iPhone 12 software update.

 

[Pezimak]

But they are going carbon neutral though. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Best email Apple to ask Mother Nature if they are.. I’m sure she can visit them again on her wind and sit in their conference room to answer the question.

Glad someone in France is keeping on top of these things, Apple is NO exception to the rules.

 

[gaximus]

Watts/kilogram is a measure of how much power is being absorbed per unit mass of your body, nothing to do with the weight of the phone.

Thank you for clearing that up, that is not clear in the article.

 

[one more]

It is. iPhone 12 and 12 mini

Apparently not, only iPhone 12:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...adiation-level-concerns.2401438/post-32461217

 

[one more]

I'm French and French media told us that this issue applied only for iPhone 12. 12 mini, 12 Pro and 12 PM are not concerned by this issue. source: https://www.igen.fr/iphone/2023/09/...-linterdiction-de-liphone-12-en-france-139299

Moreover the emission was fine at launch for EU standard (<4W/kg) but when ANFR did again the test 3 years later, the emission measure was increased to 5.7W/kg. According to many experts, you need to reach 40W/kg before having realistic health risk.

If the test is valid, Apple would be forced to push a software update to reduce emissions - which is easily feasible as this is how the emission has increased over time - but it may reduce modem performance.

Merci, bien trouvé ! 👍

 

[Lcgiv]

Congratulations on employing the same cookie cutter predictable responses used by corporate news media propagandists.

"Chinese medicine is not medicine" I like how you discredit an entire system by citing a single fringe anecdote about genital magic powder. I noticed you made zero mention of ayurvedic medicine, because you know it works. You must not know about the fact what has been imported into the west as TCM is a neutered version that is missing the most important components, which is the connection to the heart and spirituality.

But it gets better, you cite a politician as your source, which I'm sure you are well aware, are literal professional liars.

You also must be unaware to the fact many of the available drugs which you so strongly believe in are synthetic derivatives of natural products. The same natural products which have been deemed unworthy by the same people you place in such high regard, such as politicians, and multi national pharmaceutical manufacturers who have paid out billions in fines and settlements for bribing doctors and falsifying clinical trial data.

Congrats on buying cookie cutter Chinese propaganda an employing overused tropes and cliches “do better” lol I spent years in China. Chinese doctors tack on Chinese medicine because the government tells them to as it’s a state run enterprise. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. The doctors and pharmacists I knew personally always said take it off the bill and don’t get it because it’s a scam aka placebo effect 😂 but yeah keep up your defense of a genocidal regime that actively employs apartheid tactics

 

[Lcgiv]

For all of those taking the French side on this, and saying more research is necessary, can you point me to credible, double-blind studies that show that these emissions are actually harmful to humans? I'm not looking for anything that you may have already said, such as "we don't know yet" statements. I'm looking for evidence that supports the claim being made by the French government that these emissions are harmful to humans.

This thread is full of people coming out of the woodwork

Congratulations on employing the same cookie cutter predictable responses used by corporate news media propagandists.

"Chinese medicine is not medicine" I like how you discredit an entire system by citing a single fringe anecdote about genital magic powder. I noticed you made zero mention of ayurvedic medicine, because you know it works. You must not know about the fact what has been imported into the west as TCM is a neutered version that is missing the most important components, which is the connection to the heart and spirituality.

But it gets better, you cite a politician as your source, which I'm sure you are well aware, are literal professional liars.

You also must be unaware to the fact many of the available drugs which you so strongly believe in are synthetic derivatives of natural products. The same natural products which have been deemed unworthy by the same people you place in such high regard, such as politicians, and multi national pharmaceutical manufacturers who have paid out billions in fines and settlements for bribing doctors and falsifying clinical trial data.

Also Sun YatSen was the founder of China and the only man viewed positively by both China and Taiwan. A revolutionary who overthrew the Qing Dynasty. He was a doctor by trade educated in Hawaii. Please “do better” and actually learn some history. He called Chinese medicine “backwards superstition” as he knew it. But again please go kill some pangolins for fake medicine 但你可能才是个五毛/小粉红。对吧？哈哈哈 你的观点真的缺乏知识

 

[Andropov]

So, to sum up, the reason why mobile phone manufacturers like to say there is no problem with mobile phone radiation is because they know a mobile phone is not always using maximum RF power and when it does it only does so for a fraction of a second or even a micro second, not long enough to affect the human body. But someone who is constantly making phone calls throughout the day, know that could be a problem but manufacturers consider that the extreme end of mobile phone use because they know the huge majority of mobile phone users are not constantly making calls throughout the day, only a very very small percentage when compared to the percentage of mobile phone users.

No, the reason everyone says there is no problem with mobile phone radiation is because its wavelength is not short enough for photons to have enough energy to ionize biological tissues, regardless of power output.

 

[Lcgiv]

No, the reason everyone says there is no problem with mobile phone radiation is because its wavelength is not short enough for photons to have enough energy to ionize biological tissues, regardless of power output.

🫡 Exactly. Now prepare to be ignored or told the facts are wrong.