HomeKit How to change primary Home Hub?

[Itinj24]

Following this thread and I agree with what you have written. I have one Apple TV which is not the newest in the house also at the end of the house but it does have a node in there. If that Apple TV is the hub everything works fine (ok one Homeppod mini needs to be restarted every so often to keep them as stereo). If the hub moves to the newest Apple TV I get some Homekit to go offline. If the hub moves to a HomePod min or the Homepod then I lose about 10 HomeKit devices.

Honestly, I don't really care which device is the hub only that it is a hub where everything works. It is a pain having to switch it off to get the correct hub so everything works.

Agree with you if the hub was working correctly why does it need to switch to a hub that is not working correctly?

This is exactly the main point of my argument. I don’t know why some hubs perform better than others and I don’t care either. As a consumer, that’s way beyond my scope of knowledge or concern. All I know, from testing and experience, is that certain ones in my home are better performers. We absolutely should be able to have the option to make them stick so we don’t have devices arbitrarily go offline.

Apple’s algorithm, or whatever it is, that selects which it thinks is the best performing hub is completely flawed and makes zero sense to me, as a consumer. These devices (AppleTV’s and HomePods) don’t move around my house. I don’t play musical chairs with them. They shouldn’t be switching constantly. The idea that my network is the issue is baseless.

I’m no expert, but I’d say that 99% of people’s HomeKit issues would be gone if the hubs stopped screwing around.

 

[Burger Thing]

What also cracks me up every time, is when my Home App tells me, that one of my Homepods Hub is not responding - like right now my new Bedroom Homepod. However, I can stream Music from my iMac to this very "non-responding" Homepod without any issues. Go figure.

 

[Davidglenn]

However, I can stream Music from my iMac to this very "non-responding" Homepod without any issues. Go figure.

Yes, I get that as well. Now I have a light that will not respond on the Home app on my iPhone, yet on the iPad Home app the light works perfectly.

 

[rayward]

That new architecture has been a blast!

I was lucky enough to upgrade to the new architecture right before Apple took it down. I have only just - last weekend - got my smart home back functioning how it was, and that involved me deleting my home and starting again.

 

[PauloSera]

Why would the hub auto switch when the previous hub was working just fine and the newly active hub isn’t?

And therein lies the issue with this user-diagnosed "problem". How do you know it was working just fine? There are a wide variety of criteria for why a Home hub would get demoted., and clearly it was met. In an effort to maintain high availability, it's going to switch to another that is responding. It isn't necessarily going to do advanced performance profiling the secondary before promoting it...merely that it is responding and can act as a Home hub. The fact that your secondary performs noticeably worse after becoming primary is a separate issue, one that is not a given either.

 

[Burger Thing]

And therein lies the issue with this user-diagnosed "problem". How do you know it was working just fine? There are a wide variety of criteria for why a Home hub would get demoted., and clearly it was met. In an effort to maintain high availability, it's going to switch to another that is responding. It isn't necessarily going to do advanced performance profiling the secondary before promoting it...merely that it is responding and can act as a Home hub. The fact that your secondary performs noticeably worse after becoming primary is a separate issue, one that is not a given either.

Well, if I see that the Home App is diagnosing that one my Homepod is not responding while my iMac (same network, same software- and hardware-company, namely Apple), is able to stream to his very Homepod just fine, I probably have to conclude that the Hub algorithms are not exactly "robust". Which, coincidentally, matches observations many of have made. But hey, for sure it's all anecdotal.

 

[PauloSera]

Well, if I see that the Home App is diagnosing that one my Homepod is not responding while my iMac (same network, same software- and hardware-company, namely Apple), is able to stream to his very Homepod just fine, I probably have to conclude that the Hub algorithms are not exactly "robust". Which, coincidentally, matches observations many of have made. But hey, for sure it's all anecdotal.

Undoubtedly there some bugs in the process, complicated by people's undiagnosed network configuration issues.

 

[Burger Thing]

Undoubtedly there some bugs in the process, complicated by people's undiagnosed network configuration issues.

Given the debacle around the release of the new Homekit architecture for example, I am more inclined to say that the issue with bugs is rather "complicated" by Apple's attitude towards Homekit as a whole.

There will always be network issues, when you deal with Home Automation. It's just a question of how to tackle or work around them. Unfortunately it seems that Apple is offering only half-baked solutions.

 

[PauloSera]

Given the debacle around the release of the new Homekit architecture for example, I am more inclined to say that the issue with bugs is rather "complicated" by Apple's attitude towards Homekit as a whole.

There will always be network issues, when you deal with Home Automation. It's just a question of how to tackle or work around them. Unfortunately it seems that Apple is offering only half-baked solutions.

I think the very existence of the new HomeKit architecture shows a pretty solid commitment to HomeKit by Apple. The fact that it didn't go well for some users at launch (working well for me to date) is simply part of the overall plummet in software quality out of Apple since their priorities became out of whack a few years ago.

The new architecture also greatly enhances the role of the Home hub, making it the center of all requests from clients and responsible for state management. So its not like this exact area isn't being actively worked on. Just the opposite.

 

[Itinj24]

I was lucky enough to upgrade to the new architecture right before Apple took it down. I have only just - last weekend - got my smart home back functioning how it was, and that involved me deleting my home and starting again.

Not sure if you could tell from the context of the rest of my post but that was definitely sarcasm lol.

It’s not just the new architecture. All of 16.2 was awful. I actually missed the new architecture upgrade. Was pulled before I had a chance to update and I still can’t get my wife back into HomeKit since then. I initially removed her because HomeKit “accessories” was draining her battery at upwards of 75% 😳

 

[Itinj24]

And therein lies the issue with this user-diagnosed "problem". How do you know it was working just fine? There are a wide variety of criteria for why a Home hub would get demoted., and clearly it was met. In an effort to maintain high availability, it's going to switch to another that is responding. It isn't necessarily going to do advanced performance profiling the secondary before promoting it...merely that it is responding and can act as a Home hub. The fact that your secondary performs noticeably worse after becoming primary is a separate issue, one that is not a given either.

Ok, you’re either a HomeKit engineer, an Apple apologist or just trolling me. Maybe if Apple were able to diagnose their own problems from time to time, the end user wouldn’t have to. They don’t want to give us a log so all we can go by is the experience being faced. How do I know it was working just fine? You can’t be serious with that question but I’ll entertain it.

First, I monitor my HomeKit constantly throughout the day. Well, for starters, all my accessories are responding. My automations are working as expected. Siri is snappy with HomeKit requests, HKSV is recording events as expected, notifications are coming through as expected. Even my Logitech Circle 2’s (20 running in total with HKSV) are all working as expected. And mind you, this particular camera has been notorious for poor Wi-Fi connection issues over the years (but yeah, it’s my network). The list goes on. I’m not talking for just a few hours either. This is over the course of at least a week. Now, take a wild guess what happens to all the aforementioned when this hub switches arbitrarily.

C’mon, you can’t possibly sit there and tell me it’s perfectly fine for the software to take a perfectly working HomeKit setup and flip it upside down just by switching the hub because the software believes it will do better. The software is wrong, regardless if it’s a network issue. It was working and then it’s not working. Why is that difficult to understand. I’m sure you heard the phrase, “if it ain’t broke…”

Look, if it makes you feel better, I’m an Apple fanboy myself but I gave them enough money to be able to criticize them when they suck and that’s been often as of late.

This is what we currently have:
2018 MacBook Pro 15”, two iPhone 14 Pro’s, an Apple Watch Ultra, an Apple Watch S8 Hermes, an M2 iPad Pro 12.9”, two pairs of AirPod Pro 2nd Gen, two iPad 9’s, eight AppleTV 4K’s, 10 HomePod Minis, nine OG HomePods.

So yes when, they suck, I’ll say they suck.

 

[PauloSera]

Ok, you’re either a HomeKit engineer, an Apple apologist or just trolling me. Maybe if Apple were able to diagnose their own problems from time to time, the end user wouldn’t have to. They don’t want to give us a log so all we can go by is the experience being faced. How do I know it was working just fine? You can’t be serious with that question but I’ll entertain it.

First, I monitor my HomeKit constantly throughout the day. Well, for starters, all my accessories are responding. My automations are working as expected. Siri is snappy with HomeKit requests, HKSV is recording events as expected, notifications are coming through as expected. Even my Logitech Circle 2’s (20 running in total with HKSV) are all working as expected. And mind you, this particular camera has been notorious for poor Wi-Fi connection issues over the years (but yeah, it’s my network). The list goes on. I’m not talking for just a few hours either. This is over the course of at least a week. Now, take a wild guess what happens to all the aforementioned when this hub switches arbitrarily.

C’mon, you can’t possibly sit there and tell me it’s perfectly fine for the software to take a perfectly working HomeKit setup and flip it upside down just by switching the hub because the software believes it will do better. The software is wrong, regardless if it’s a network issue. It was working and then it’s not working. Why is that difficult to understand. I’m sure you heard the phrase, “if it ain’t broke…”

Look, if it makes you feel better, I’m an Apple fanboy myself but I gave them enough money to be able to criticize them when they suck and that’s been often as of late.

This is what we currently have:
2018 MacBook Pro 15”, two iPhone 14 Pro’s, an Apple Watch Ultra, an Apple Watch S8 Hermes, an M2 iPad Pro 12.9”, two pairs of AirPod Pro 2nd Gen, two iPad 9’s, eight AppleTV 4K’s, 10 HomePod Minis, nine OG HomePods.

So yes when, they suck, I’ll say they suck.

Despite your belligerent attitude, I'll try to engage you on a level you might understand:

In your described scenario, what do you imagine would have happened if you had no HomePods at all? Curious about your answer.

If your answer is: nothing would have happened and Home would have continued working fine as it was, you'd be wrong. That's why it switched in the first place.

Whether or not there are legitimate bugs with HomePod's ability to act as a Home hub, or these are simple networking problems that users don't understand, the fact is the HomePod is perfectly capable of acting as a Home hub for most people, and having a high availability promotion/demotion approach to Home hubs makes absolute sense.

 

[Itinj24]

I think the very existence of the new HomeKit architecture shows a pretty solid commitment to HomeKit by Apple. The fact that it didn't go well for some users at launch (working well for me to date) is simply part of the overall plummet in software quality out of Apple since their priorities became out of whack a few years ago.

The new architecture also greatly enhances the role of the Home hub, making it the center of all requests from clients and responsible for state management. So its not like this exact area isn't being actively worked on. Just the opposite.

This I can agree with.

I personally think Apple’s recent deeper dive into HomeKit is a result of Matter being released. Apple probably feels they need to be more competitive in the smart home market since they need a good platform people will want to choose. Speculation of course.

I never got on the new architecture in time but I read a lot of forums. Perhaps it will enhance the hub selection process for me. For now though, on the old architecture and 16.2, it’s been a wild ride to say the least.

Consumers are generally not networking engineers. Admittedly, I fall in that category. I know the basics but I’m not expected to know more. It’s on Apple (“It Just Works”) to optimize their hardware/software to make it as easy for consumers as possible to set it and forget it.

 

[PauloSera]

Consumers are generally not networking engineers. Admittedly, I fall in that category. I know the basics but I’m not expected to know more. It’s on Apple (“It Just Works”) to optimize their hardware/software to make it as easy for consumers as possible to set it and forget it.

Just not sure how realistic that is for something as increasingly complex as home automation. You see clearly how people have completely opposite experiences with more or less the same hardware and accessories. The variable being the person (and the network) in between. The solution for this is Thread, but it will take ages for our built-out smart homes to entirely transition to Thread. And I say Thread, not Matter, because Thread is infinitely more important than Matter.

 

[Itinj24]

Despite your belligerent attitude, I'll try to engage you on a level you might understand:

In your described scenario, what do you imagine would have happened if you had no HomePods at all? Curious about your answer.

If your answer is: nothing would have happened and Home would have continued working fine as it was, you'd be wrong. That's why it switched in the first place.

Whether or not there are legitimate bugs with HomePod's ability to act as a Home hub, or these are simple networking problems that users don't understand, the fact is the HomePod is perfectly capable of acting as a Home hub for most people, and having a high availability promotion/demotion approach to Home hubs makes absolute sense.

If you think I’m being belligerent that’s fine, but you’ve been condescending so we’re even.

I’m not saying the HomePod is an awful performing hub for all. I’m saying it’s been an awful performing hub for me. If that was misunderstood, then now I’m clarifying. I have one hardwired AppleTV that is the best performer and that is my current active hub right now as we speak. Everything is working as expected. I have hardwired AppleTV’s that aren’t great as hubs either. I just want to know why it would switch? Why can’t I select it and let it stick if it’s working properly and has been over several days to weeks? That to me makes no sense and I’m pretty sure that was the whole purpose behind this thread.

 

[Itinj24]

Just not sure how realistic that is for something as increasingly complex as home automation. You see clearly how people have completely opposite experiences with more or less the same hardware and accessories. The variable being the person (and the network) in between. The solution for this is Thread, but it will take ages for our built-out smart homes to entirely transition to Thread. And I say Thread, not Matter, because Thread is infinitely more important than Matter.

HomeKit automations aren’t exactly complex compared to other platforms but I hear ya. Apple’s engineers are supposed to be top notch. If it’s networking issues, they should publish some troubleshooting steps with regards to networking or just don’t release features that the average consumer will have a difficult time with. IPv6, DNS, UPnP, DHCP, NAT, whatever all that means. You call support and they don’t have a clue either. That’s why consumers like me resort to self diagnosing. No other option.

 

[PauloSera]

I just want to know why it would switch? Why can’t I select it and let it stick if it’s working properly and has been over several days to weeks? That to me makes no sense and I’m pretty sure that was the whole purpose behind this thread.

Because the Home hub use a high availability architecture similar to what a database uses. When the primary becomes unstable or unavailable, a secondary is promoted to primary, to ensure that critical Hub operations keep working. The fact that some of your secondaries perform poorly for you as primaries is not relevant to this point.

There are probably dozens of reasons why an election takes place and why a primary is demoted. Some as simple as the device being unplugged, some more complex like the device gets too hot or is under too much load or is not responding to requests fast enough. I have a suspicion that a lot of people with Apple TV's have them buried behind hot TVs or in cabinets and the devices reach a heat threshold and they are removed as primary. But that's just one theory.

 

[PauloSera]

That’s why consumers like me resort to self diagnosing. No other option.

Yes, and then we get threads like this where the "solution" is doing round robing reboots of your Home hubs as opposed to fixing your network.

 

[Itinj24]

Because the Home hub use a high availability architecture similar to what a database uses. When the primary becomes unstable or unavailable, a secondary is promoted to primary, to ensure that critical Hub operations keep working. The fact that some of your secondaries perform poorly for you as primaries is not relevant to this point.

There are probably dozens of reasons why an election takes place and why a primary is demoted. Some as simple as the device being unplugged, some more complex like the device gets too hot or is under too much load or is not responding to requests fast enough. I have a suspicion that a lot of people with Apple TV's have them buried behind hot TVs or in cabinets and the devices reach a heat threshold and they are removed as primary. But that's just one theory.

Well then it’s doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. It’s absolutely relevant because it’s switching and taking everything down with it.

 

[Itinj24]

Yes, and then we get threads like this where the "solution" is doing round robing reboots of your Home hubs as opposed to fixing your network.

What exactly is fixing the network? Everything is working just fine other than hubs. Apple needs to fix their software, I say. I do a speed test on my iPhone directly over the poor hub performing HomePod Mini connected to the same hardwired eero Pro 6 leaf and I get more than sufficient speeds there. What’s really gonna boggle your mind with the whole networking issue thing is this particular HomePod Mini works flawlessly as a HomePod. Siri requests, playing music, running on the automation it’s included in, etc. Awful as a hub though. So, no, I fail to believe it’s my network.

So, yes, you’re gonna see threads like this because people are just as confused as I am, and Apple support as well. The whole network issue thing is really getting old.

 

[Burger Thing]

Yes, and then we get threads like this where the "solution" is doing round robing reboots of your Home hubs as opposed to fixing your network.

Why do you think, people are resorting to round Robin rebooting their Home hubs? Could it be because there see no other options? Well, actually Apple does not give options here anyway.... And now I will ask a question which will blow your mind: could it be because their network is running just fine for everything else? Browsing, streaming, shopping, working, iPhone, iMac, Xiaomi, Whatnot. Even for Google Home or Alexa? Yes, some people run that in parallel, #gasp...

 

[Itinj24]

Why do you think, people are resorting to round Robin rebooting their Home hubs? Could it be because there see no other options? Well, actually Apple does not give options here anyway.... And now I will ask a question which will blow your mind: could it be because their network is running just fine for everything else? Browsing, streaming, shopping, working, iPhone, iMac, Xiaomi, Whatnot. Even for Google Home or Alexa? Yes, some people run that in parallel, #gasp...

Correct. Absolutely mind blowing. Everything else working perfectly fine except for that one hub. 🤯

 

[sparky672]

Or a HomeKit accessory that had been working perfectly fine for over a year until tvOS 16.3.x comes along, and suddenly Apple TV (Home hub) needs a daily rebooting. My network just has to be to blame... because there is no other explanation and for "reasons".

If only Apple could show us the perfect network settings required for the immensely flawless and robust HomeKit hub to be fit for purpose. Meanwhile, I need to get back to my daily reboot routine that works solely on anecdotes, coincidence, and conjecture.

 

[TonyC28]

Yes, and then we get threads like this where the "solution" is doing round robing reboots of your Home hubs as opposed to fixing your network.

You seem to be very knowledgable so maybe you can help me out. As far as hubs go, I have two OG HomePods set as a stereo pair, two HomePod Minis not set as a stereo pair, and three Apple TVs. I have various HomeKit accessories throughout my home and several automations that run daily. One of my automations involves turning on two lamps using WeMo Mini smart plugs. Once in a while I'll notice the lamps didn't turn on. Eventually I found that this happened when my OG HomePods were the hub. So when the lamps didn't turn on I turn them on manually in the Home app and the response is laggy, taking about 3-5 seconds to respond and turn the lamp on. The solution that works for me is to restart the OG HomePods which then has another device take over as the hub. After that the WeMos respond instantly and the lamps turn on. The next day the automation works as intended. Then, a couple weeks or so later it happens again and the process repeats. I have an eero network set up in my house. What settings can I check or change in my eeros that would stop this from happening?

 

[sparky672]

Maybe finally this thread's network expert will kindly explain.