I will never wear Vision Pro again: text on real displays looks '3d' after taking Vision Pro off. Anyone else having eye/brain problems?

[Jensend]

AVP, with all of its position sensors could potentially do parallax and eyeball tracking but it's still going to incomplete.

What do you mean "potentially"? It has parallax from head motion (unlike stereoscopic movies). Pretty much the only depth cue missing is focus.

 

[ElBerserko]

Also, a stereoscopic image is not true 3D - stereoscopy is just one of several tools your eyes/brain has for perceiving depth: you also have distance cues from focusing your eyes, how your eyeballs track together, parallax motion as your viewpoint moves plus your knowledge/expectations of the world in general. Stereoscopy alone doesn't just lack those other channels, but it can send conflicting data (e.g. stereoscopy says you're looking at a distant mountain, but your eyes are focussed at arms length...). AVP, with all of its position sensors could potentially do parallax and eyeball tracking but it's still going to incomplete.

I noticed when I did the in-store demo that things off in the distance looked like cardboard cutouts. Not realistic at all. Resolution might also play a factor as super distant objects might fall within the same pixels relative to each other on each screen. Whereas real vision can pick up these subtile differences due to its “analog” nature.

 

[star-affinity]

Biologically, we are attuned to non-verbals. Would you marry someone you chatted with online or would you prefer to meet them in person first?

Humans are social beings and fantasy, while good for imagination with books and the like, is terrible when it limits reality.

The definition of addiction is "physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects." If we are dependent on VR and run to it because life is boring or depressing, that is the problem. Too many people run to the "internet world" to get away from reality. We should spend more face time (pun intended) with real people; it's healthier and brings about healthier interpersonal relationships.

I think I like both. It's nice to meet people physically and chat and have discussions and so on, but it's also nice to be able to take the mind out for a break with a game or enter another world that puts the focus elsewhere for some time.

Was also thinking, most of the content on the internet are at least reflections of reality, no? Is it really so bad? I'm also thinking – would things automatically be so much better and more ”real” if we didn't have the internet and the ability to so easily escape from the ”real” world? I don't know. I think it probably does more good than it does bad.

And also, work for many people means staring into screens many hours a day and dealing with ”reality” via that. But that is okay as long as there are people in there too, or? 🤔

But of course it is sad if the escapism takes away something that would have happened otherwise. At the same time I do think it also brings tings what wouldn't have been there without it. Hmm….

 

[MacProFCP]

I think I like both. It's nice to meet people physically and chat and have discussions and so on, but it's also nice to be able to take the mind out for a break with a game or enter another world that puts the focus elsewhere for some time.

Was also thinking, most of the content on the internet are at least reflections of reality, no? Is it really so bad? I'm also thinking – would things automatically be so much better and more ”real” if we didn't have the internet and the ability to so easily escape from the ”real” world? I don't know. I think it probably does more good than it does bad.

And also, work for many people means staring into screens many hours a day and dealing with ”reality” via that. But that is okay as long as there are people in there too, or? 🤔

But of course it is sad if the escapism takes away something that would have happened otherwise. At the same time I do think it also brings tings what wouldn't have been there without it. Hmm….

Everything in moderation so long as it’s not an unhealthy escape.

 

[MisterSavage]

Everything in moderation so long as it’s not an unhealthy escape.

This. We've been hearing these overblown fears since video games first became popular decades ago.

 

[Itinj24]

The article on PWM and the AVP you referenced interestingly compares displays such as those in the AVP with incandescent light bulbs. If most people are like me, nearly all the lights in homes are LEDs that also use PWM. This would mean that after sunset, all the light we're seeing is strobed. I assume that lights of the same brand -- or using similar controllers -- and dimmed to the same level would be strobing at the same multiple of the 50 or 60Hz mains. Is this bad for us?

I’m no Doctor or expert on LED technology so I can’t give you a definitive answer on how bad it is. From what I gather on the internet though, PWM is mostly causing temporary discomfort that goes away once removed from the LED source.

 

[theluggage]

This. We've been hearing these overblown fears since video games first became popular decades ago.

Sure, turns out that spending a few hours a week gaming doesn't turn you into a violent maniac - and might even have benefits, but I don't think anybody pretends that spending 8 hours a day, 5 days a week gaming isn't risky for physical and mental health.

The problem is that AVP isn't primarily being pitched as a gaming device, but for serious augmented reality and communication uses - including replacing your computer display - which rather assume that you're going to be wearing it continually for most of the working day (otherwise, continually taking it on and off when you, say, received a 'video' call would be a real bind). Currently, the battery life will put a time limit on that, but that will have to improve to realise the 'dreams' of AVP...). Even if it is no more stressful than looking at a screen, that still exceeds most common-sense rules on how long to work at a screen without at least looking up and stretching (which is a lot quicker and easier than taking a bulky headset on and off).

Plus, I'm not a great fan of personal grooming, but for some people... oh my, what about the visor hair...?

 

[MisterSavage]

Plus, I'm not a great fan of personal grooming, but for some people... oh my, what about the visor hair...?

The thought of that just made me laugh!

 

[ovrlrd]

I have already been stress testing it and while the fans ramp up enough for you to hear them the amount of heat that touches your face is really minimal and I would be surprised if anyone can tell. The vents at the top get can get pretty hot but the temperature doesn’t change much inside the headset. Now I am certain it gets even hotter from physical activity, but I also want to point out that every single VR headset that I own makes my face hot if I am moving around and being physical, but that isn’t from the processors it’s just lack of the natural effects of convection on your face (ie air does not move on your face). I don’t have any data comparing how much heat other headsets put on your face, since I also don’t feel them unless I am being physical.

Surprisingly, when the fan ramps up, you can also feel the tiniest bit of cooler air move on to your face. I believe this is an intentional design and can somewhat cool your face down, but not enough to overpower the amount of heat a human head produces.

 

[Roller]

yeah no, good luck with that.

Thanks for a thoughtful, well-reasoned response.

 

[teknikal90]

Thanks for a thoughtful, well-reasoned response.

Typing out long sentences isn't indicative of thoughtful, well reasoned responses. The field of VR and AR, especially with mini-LED screens meant to be worn for hours on end is still relatively new. It is absurd to think that there have been exhaustive research to conclude that there are no detrimental effects to your eyes from using these devices extensively. Heck, they can't even yet rule out cellphone radiation as being harmful. It may be, it may not. Common sense should prevail though. You look at your computer screen a lot, your eyes will suffer. That's documented over many decades - talk to your ophthalmologist. Now, make that a high res screen 2 inches from your eyes and I don't need to wait for a study to tell me there will be some negative side effects.

 

[Roller]

Typing out long sentences isn't indicative of thoughtful, well reasoned responses. The field of VR and AR, especially with mini-LED screens meant to be worn for hours on end is still relatively new. It is absurd to think that there have been exhaustive research to conclude that there are no detrimental effects to your eyes from using these devices extensively. Heck, they can't even yet rule out cellphone radiation as being harmful. It may be, it may not. Common sense should prevail though. You look at your computer screen a lot, your eyes will suffer. That's documented over many decades - talk to your ophthalmologist. Now, make that a high res screen 2 inches from your eyes and I don't need to wait for a study to tell me there will be some negative side effects.

As a physician, scientist, and eye patient, I'm well aware of the potential ophthalmic effects. Like I said, anyone who experiences eyestrain or headache using the AV Pro or any display should limit their use.

Responding "good luck with that" wasn't helpful. Had you posted the response you wrote above, I would have respected your opinion and left it at that.

 

[Eugr]

Now, make that a high res screen 2 inches from your eyes and I don't need to wait for a study to tell me there will be some negative side effects.

For your eyes, that screen is about 4-5 feet away (or whatever the focal distance of the AVP is), because you have those lenses between your eyes and the screen. So, actually, it's much easier for the eyes to focus on AVP content than on your phone screen, for example.

Using AVP causes LESS eyestrain for me, because I don't have to focus on something very close to me. I usually get very cross-eyed after a day of working behind a normal computer screen (unless I use my 32-inch monitor at 200% scale and sit about 3-4 feet away from it). I can spend hours working with AVP on and don't have that effect.

Now, AVP is not perfect by any measure. For instance, the text is blurrier when mirroring Mac, so it would cause a bit of an eye strain there, plus there are some annoying distortions and motion blur when I turn my head, but for me the effect is still net positive. There is also glare, but I'd say my replacement unit is much better in this regard.

 

[teknikal90]

For your eyes, that screen is about 4-5 feet away (or whatever the focal distance of the AVP is), because you have those lenses between your eyes and the screen. So, actually, it's much easier for the eyes to focus on AVP content than on your phone screen, for example.

Using AVP causes LESS eyestrain for me, because I don't have to focus on something very close to me. I usually get very cross-eyed after a day of working behind a normal computer screen (unless I use my 32-inch monitor at 200% scale and sit about 3-4 feet away from it). I can spend hours working with AVP on and don't have that effect.

Now, AVP is not perfect by any measure. For instance, the text is blurrier when mirroring Mac, so it would cause a bit of an eye strain there, plus there are some annoying distortions and motion blur when I turn my head, but for me the effect is still net positive. There is also glare, but I'd say my replacement unit is much better in this regard.

that is good to know. Thank you

 

[kreasu_]

Someone else mentioned experiencing this in another thread but I really want to see how many other people are getting this issue. This is not a bait thread, nor is it a hate thread. I am wholeheartedly trying to figure out if it's just me and the one other guy on the forum or if more people are getting this problem.

I haven't worn AVP in 24 hours and I'm getting an issue where some elements on 2D displays (my monitor, iPhone, TV) look 3D and it's making me dizzy. I have to blink a few times or shake my head to get rid of it and then it comes back a few seconds later. I first noticed this problem whilst wearing Vision Pro; certain elements that weren't supposed to be 3D (text on Safari sites, parts of image thumbnail content in Photos, etc.) looked like they were 'popping out' of the window. It was really prominent with red elements. At first I thought this was a software glitch but now I'm getting the same effect on real monitors with no AVP on. I'm hoping this goes away in a couple days once my eyes readjust but this is scary and affecting my productivity because it happens most frequently with text (good luck coding guys). In fact I'm getting it right now as I'm writing this thread. It only looks like it's floating a couple millimeters above the actual display.

Oh it's also happening to a lesser extent with text on physical items.

I've decided even if you gave me a Vision Pro for free or PAID ME to use it I'm not going to wear one again. The 3D eye problem I now have is not worth the AVP experience. No tech, no matter how 'magical,' is worth destroying my eyesight over. I was so excited for not just AVP but Apple's whole Vision platform in general.

I can't believe this would end up being my final conclusion. It's a cool platform and I can't wait for the 'glasses' version to come out in a few decades (lol) but I'm not going to risk any more eye issues. What a sad end for my AVP experience

EDIT: oh God I just opened Discord and it looks like the window is floating over my browser... I'm using Windows right now on a REAL MONITOR

EDIT 2: 48 hours later things are starting to come back to normal. I think I'll take a break from screen work today. My conclusion still stands: I won't be wearing Vision Pro again.

EDIT 3: 5-6 days later post Vision Pro I'm still getting the effect although it's not as disorientating.

I had this exact problem kgontech has a good write up about this but if the displays aren't exactly matched in pixel location and especially in color calibration elements appear to float or not look depth correct at least that's what happened to me I had exchanged my unit and the new one is much better than the old one

 

[digitster]

An Amsler Grid eye test before and after usage could be an indicator of whether there is really an issue or a danger using VR environments. Especially the ability of seeing small horizontal and vertical line grids sharp after excessive usage of devices.

like described there for instance:

Testen Sie Ihre Vision mit dem Amsler-Gitter

Die frühzeitige Erkennung von Veränderungen im zentralen Sehbereich ist entscheidend, um den Sehverlust durch Makuladegeneration und diabetische Retinopathie zu verhindern. Wenn bei Ihnen das Risiko einer Makuladegeneration besteht oder Sie an Diabetes leiden, ist es ratsam, die Sehkraft jedes...

de.visivite.com

Me for instance has a natural disability and sees horizontal lines always blurred or duplicated, which is quite a problem sometimes and also is daytime dependent.

 

[fatTribble]

For what it’s worth, before deciding to keep mine I talked to a good friend who is an ophthalmologist. My only issue was blurry vision after use. The motion sickness I experienced was fixed with a combination of reduced motion and the optical inserts. The inserts helped me a lot. He told me that more deliberate blinking could help with the blurry vision because you tend to blink less frequently with these headsets. He said there is no concern of long-term eye damage. He actually owns a competing headset.

 

[WilliamG]

Red popping out of displays is common with high index prescription glasses. OP do you wear prescription glasses?

Can concur. Without my glasses on the red and blue are on the same plane. With my glasses (high index) the red pops out toward me.

 

[someone33]

So much ignorance with this topic when the AVP is actually good for your eyes. I’m not a glasses/contacts wearer and I’ve noticed my vision has slightly improved these past few weeks from using the AVP. I had some eye strain the first week but that has went away.

I’m guessing it’s a combination of the focal distance, exercise from eye movement to select things, and the stereoscopic aspect forcing both eyes to work together better.

 

[fs454]

The other misconception that is rooted in complete misunderstanding at the base level is that the screens are “too close to your face”. They’re not, they’re behind a lens that focuses to somewhere in the range of 9-12 feet. To your eye, it’s as if you’re looking at a display 10 feet away.

There is not even a remote similarity to trying to focus on a screen inches from your face.

I had earlier comments in here expressing concern during my first 14 days with the AVP, but it turns out my unit was actually just defective (poorly manufactured left lens) and I can use the replacement AVP with no eye strain indefinitely.

 

[Eugr]

So much ignorance with this topic when the AVP is actually good for your eyes. I’m not a glasses/contacts wearer and I’ve noticed my vision has slightly improved these past few weeks from using the AVP. I had some eye strain the first week but that has went away.

I’m guessing it’s a combination of the focal distance, exercise from eye movement to select things, and the stereoscopic aspect forcing both eyes to work together better.

As someone with astigmatism and a pretty big difference in vision between my eyes, AVP and other XR headsets have been beneficial for my eyesight as well. I get pretty bad eyestrain if I have to focus on something closer than ~3 feet for more than an hour. I get double vision and eye fatigue in general.

In contrast, I can work for a couple of hours in AVP and not have any of these issues at all, as it maintains a comfortable focus distance of ~3-4 feet or so, and I can position the virtual screen at about the same distance as well, to help with eye convergence. Just need to remember to blink more often.

Another benefit for me was improved eyesight in my right eye and better 3D perception. Because of my eyestrain when working with computer displays/phone/tablet/etc, it looks like my brain was "turning off" my right eye after a while and used mostly my left eye. That resulted in progressively worse eyesight in my right eye and worse 3D perception.

That changed ~10 years ago when I first started to occasionally use Google Glass, which sort of "activated" my right eye, and then various VR headsets and AR glasses, like XReal. However, up until AVP, I couldn't use any of them for work. Quest Pro and Quest 3 came very close, but not quite. XReal is super uncomfortable with prescription inserts, has a very narrow FOV and is very sensitive to positioning. AVP is not perfect either, but it crosses the threshold for me.

 

[fatTribble]

Really? The 10 years they spent with Stanford researching and developing their technology, you think no one had the thought at any point to look into health effects?

This just got whipped up by some idiots in a lab over a weekend right?

This site used to have technical conversations. Now it’s all useless hot takes from people that don’t bother to think through the logistics of how products (any products) are developed, tested, manufactured, and packaged.

I just have to say, I enjoyed your response so much I read it to my spouse who laughed out loud. I’ve re-read it several times and enjoy it each time. I’ve had similar conversations with family members who think they alone see the obvious potential issue with any new technology or societal change. I so wish I could respond to them like you did here. 🥰🥳

 

[heretiq]

Really? The 10 years they spent with Stanford researching and developing their technology, you think no one had the thought at any point to look into health effects?

This just got whipped up by some idiots in a lab over a weekend right?

This site used to have technical conversations. Now it’s all useless hot takes from people that don’t bother to think through the logistics of how products (any products) are developed, tested, manufactured, and packaged.

Exactly. The level of impulsive, thoughtless, fact-bare, cynical and disrespectful critique of Apple, Apple leadership and Apple products is surprising. I miss the days when Apple products were niche and one could have thoughtful disagreement and debate with fellow Apple product users without the constant distraction from trolls.

 

[heretiq]

So much ignorance with this topic when the AVP is actually good for your eyes. I’m not a glasses/contacts wearer and I’ve noticed my vision has slightly improved these past few weeks from using the AVP. I had some eye strain the first week but that has went away.

I’m guessing it’s a combination of the focal distance, exercise from eye movement to select things, and the stereoscopic aspect forcing both eyes to work together better.

The other misconception that is rooted in complete misunderstanding at the base level is that the screens are “too close to your face”. They’re not, they’re behind a lens that focuses to somewhere in the range of 9-12 feet. To your eye, it’s as if you’re looking at a display 10 feet away.

There is not even a remote similarity to trying to focus on a screen inches from your face.

I had earlier comments in here expressing concern during my first 14 days with the AVP, but it turns out my unit was actually just defective (poorly manufactured left lens) and I can use the replacement AVP with no eye strain indefinitely.

As someone with astigmatism and a pretty big difference in vision between my eyes, AVP and other XR headsets have been beneficial for my eyesight as well. I get pretty bad eyestrain if I have to focus on something closer than ~3 feet for more than an hour. I get double vision and eye fatigue in general.

In contrast, I can work for a couple of hours in AVP and not have any of these issues at all, as it maintains a comfortable focus distance of ~3-4 feet or so, and I can position the virtual screen at about the same distance as well, to help with eye convergence. Just need to remember to blink more often.

Another benefit for me was improved eyesight in my right eye and better 3D perception. Because of my eyestrain when working with computer displays/phone/tablet/etc, it looks like my brain was "turning off" my right eye after a while and used mostly my left eye. That resulted in progressively worse eyesight in my right eye and worse 3D perception.

That changed ~10 years ago when I first started to occasionally use Google Glass, which sort of "activated" my right eye, and then various VR headsets and AR glasses, like XReal. However, up until AVP, I couldn't use any of them for work. Quest Pro and Quest 3 came very close, but not quite. XReal is super uncomfortable with prescription inserts, has a very narrow FOV and is very sensitive to positioning. AVP is not perfect either, but it crosses the threshold for me.

Thank you @someone33, @fs454 and @Eugr. I learned a lot from your fact-based and insightful posts. Thanks for cutting through the noise and making edifying contributions to the discussion. 🙏🏽

 

[heretiq]

I‘m starting just to ignore anyone who is overtly negative and has an account created today.

Yep, the upside from the trolling is that the trolls are self-identifying. I never even thought of using the ignore function until AVP. Now I see its purpose and just used it to welcomed two new members the ignore club. 😂