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vkd

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2012
970
345
You do realize there are people out there, lets call them gamers, who just want to play the games currently available, you know stuff like Cyberpunk, Elden Ring, Red Dead etc.

Just because a game is so-called AAA and highly publicised doesn't mean its any good. I've played all these you mention and, for me, they are turds. I've found a great game that I've been playing for 6 months or so now, totally addicted, runs perfect on macOS, also on other platforms too. Assimilates well into my workflow, no need to keep 2 machines running, everything on the same screen, I can easily flip to my other activity. Perfect. I'm not telling you what the game is though cos you'll only criticise.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
I would say yes. Devs aren't treating us Windows gamers with enough respect so it shouldn't shock people that they don't care about Macs either. I am so frustrated that my $3,000+ gaming system ($1,600 for GPU alone) had difficulties playing the last two big titles. I think PC gaming in general is suffering. I am just at the point of getting all three consoles and be done with PC gaming. I can get all three (well have a Switch already) and still cost less than my GPU alone.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
Mac gaming officially died on February 24th, 2000. That's the day that MacRumors launched. Ever since then, we've been helpfully reminded that Macs aren't for gaming, on a regular basis, as is tradition.

Instead of discussing games that are currently in development for the Mac, those that are soon to be released, or have recently been released, the self-proclaimed realists on this forum inform us that we should just get PCs or consoles and give up on the Mac for games. This is news to Mac gamers, such as myself, who have enjoyed playing Mac games for years now.

I would say that 80% of the computer games that I play are isometric turn-based RPGs, which are plentiful on the Mac. In fact, essentially all of these titles have a Mac native version, having parity with Windows PCs. Off the top of my head, there's Baldur's Gate 3, Solasta, Pathfinder, ATOM RPG, Black Geyser, Disco Elysium, the Dungeon of Naheulbeuk, and Wasteland 3, all of which have been released within the past couple of years, some of which have expansions currently in development. Some of these are Apple Silicon native, others work fine using Rosetta 2. Similarly, if you enjoy strategy games, there are also a wide selection for the Mac.

After mentioning this, I'm told "just because it's okay for you, doesn't mean that it is for everyone". It's a shame watching the straw man genocide happening right before my eyes.

Apple Silicon Macs make for perfectly serviceable gaming machines. Everyone knows that they will never have the same selection that are available on PC, but saying that Mac gaming is dead is pure hyperbole.

There seems to be three different types of posters in this discussion:

1. Users who are primarily concerned about gaming, the Mac is secondary to that consideration, therefore eliminated by default. For them, a gaming PC or console is the best solution.

2. Mac users who also want to use them for gaming. These are people who own a Mac, want to use it for gaming purposes, and realize that compromises will have to be made.

3. Windows PC partisans who specifically come here to proselytize about how great the PC is, that us Mac heathens should change our ways, only post benchmarks that demonstrate PC's undisputed superiority, and constantly move goalposts in bad faith arguments. These people are easy to spot, but sometimes fool new posters, because they assume that everyone here is arguing in good faith, which is not the case.

I'm only concerned with people in category number 2. That's why I highlight upcoming game releases and discuss solutions to run Windows-only titles.

Some of those options are currently on the market, others are being worked on. Everyone knows that Macs will never have the same selection as PCs. Hence, Mac gamers are going to have to make compromises. Fortunately, there are multiple teams working on different solutions. CodeWeavers is working on DirectX 12 support for CrossOver. Parallels continues to improve running Arm Windows through virtualization. As I highlighted in a previous post, the Asahi Linux team is working on Proton support for Apple Silicon. The Asahi team in particular has made tremendous progress.

I've always been of the opinion that I don't need access to all computer games, just enough to be satisfied while gaming on my Mac. I have no interest in getting a console. I don't want to go through the duplication of a building a gaming PC and absolutely hate using Windows.

CodeWeavers, Parallels, Asahi Linux, and Apple itself are all working on bringing game support to the Mac, in one form or another. If Mac gaming was dead, then there would be no profit in these ventures. If you want to game primarily on the Mac, then there will always be compromises, and many of us are okay with that. That's not going to be enough for the gaming first crowd, which is fine, there are plenty options for those who want a Windows PC. That will never be enough for the PC partisans, but there's no point in engaging with people who are fighting a religious war.
Agreed. I like Minecraft, Terraria, Factorio, Tomb Raider, etc. These are all on Macs. The only two games I am playing on PC these days are Ixion and Satisfactory, if those got Mac ports I would be so happy. And when you tell people this, they say some/most of those aren't AAA games!!!
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
I never said there was no games in those genres on Mac but that a lot of titles in those genres are missing on Mac in comparison to Windows/Playstation/Xbox/Switch. You also didn't list a single JRPG BTW...

There is over 3000 FPSs on Steam and only 366 of those are available for Mac and that includes titles never updated with 64 bit support like Call of Duty 4 and thus not playable on any new Mac. There is over 4000 racing games on Steam and only 662 playable on Mac (again with some 32 bit titles still in there). Similarly Steam lists 2400 JRPGs and only 305 available for Mac. And yes, there is a lot of big missing games. The last Need for Speed on Mac was Carbon back in 2006, there's no Overwatch, no Final Fantasys besides 14, no Dragon Quests, no Forza, no Apex Legends etc. It's really not a stretch IMO that somebody into those genres MIGHT want to play some of the biggest names in them.
Quality over quantity. Steam/Windows gets about a dozen of "adult" titles a day it seems. These new AAA games haven't even been able to run well on my i9 and 4090 setup (well over $3,000 BTW JUST to game on Windows and look at how well I am treated....yeah why are people surprised companies don't focus on Mac again?). But no, it's just cool to bash Apple and not the actual game devs. If they treat us Windows gamers this bad, why do people get so shocked repeatedly about just ignoring macOS entirely?
 

orionquest

Suspended
Mar 16, 2022
871
788
The Great White North
Just because a game is so-called AAA and highly publicised doesn't mean its any good. I've played all these you mention and, for me, they are turds. I've found a great game that I've been playing for 6 months or so now, totally addicted, runs perfect on macOS, also on other platforms too. Assimilates well into my workflow, no need to keep 2 machines running, everything on the same screen, I can easily flip to my other activity. Perfect. I'm not telling you what the game is though cos you'll only criticise.
Where did I say anything about AAA gaming?
It's a matter of choice of titles to play, not what titles are just available.
And what is good or bad is up to the individual player.

Any more personal opinions you care to share which are totally irrelevant to the topic?
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
Where did I say anything about AAA gaming?
It's a matter of choice of titles to play, not what titles are just available.
And what is good or bad is up to the individual player.

Any more personal opinions you care to share which are totally irrelevant to the topic?
Well then by the definition of the word, no. In fact macOS has plenty of games to go around and is by definition a good gaming platform. 5 of the games I currently play are on Mac. And over 50 overall that I have played and enjoyed also exist on Mac. When people complain about no games on Mac, it always devolves to AAA only titles.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,155
2,466
OBX
Quality over quantity. Steam/Windows gets about a dozen of "adult" titles a day it seems. These new AAA games haven't even been able to run well on my i9 and 4090 setup (well over $3,000 BTW JUST to game on Windows and look at how well I am treated....yeah why are people surprised companies don't focus on Mac again?). But no, it's just cool to bash Apple and not the actual game devs. If they treat us Windows gamers this bad, why do people get so shocked repeatedly about just ignoring macOS entirely?
Are you taking the stance that you'd rather not have a game at all versus having one that has performance issues that can be fixed?
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,155
2,466
OBX
Well then by the definition of the word, no. In fact macOS has plenty of games to go around and is by definition a good gaming platform. 5 of the games I currently play are on Mac. And over 50 overall that I have played and enjoyed also exist on Mac. When people complain about no games on Mac, it always devolves to AAA only titles.
To be fair you yourself have a game you aren't' releasing on macOS (even though it works on the platform), so either the other indie developers are wrong for making macOS versions or you are wrong for not. No?
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68030
Sep 7, 2009
2,990
1,727
Anchorage, AK
Well then by the definition of the word, no. In fact macOS has plenty of games to go around and is by definition a good gaming platform. 5 of the games I currently play are on Mac. And over 50 overall that I have played and enjoyed also exist on Mac. When people complain about no games on Mac, it always devolves to AAA only titles.

That's because a small yet extremely vocal minority of the gaming base think anything outside of an AAA title is worthless, even though they're likely playing something like Minecraft, Terraria, Binding of Isaac, or Stardew Valley (to name a few). Ironically, a lot of the games with cross-platform support are from smaller studios and/or indie developers, because they need multiple sources of revenue to continue to operate. Large studios can just focus on Windows with AAA titles because between initial game sales and wave upon wave of DLC post-release they create a continuous revenue stream for themselves.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
To be fair you yourself have a game you aren't' releasing on macOS (even though it works on the platform), so either the other indie developers are wrong for making macOS versions or you are wrong for not. No?
If it fits their business model, then that’s fine with them. Many other indie games are PC only. Some indie titles were ported to macs later. Which is on my list but not the highest priority.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
Are you taking the stance that you'd rather not have a game at all versus having one that has performance issues that can be fixed?
No I’m taking the stance of why bother anymore with PC gaming. I can get all three consoles twice and still have money left over. And consoles performance is a bit better than PC as of late.
 

Choco Taco

Suspended
Nov 23, 2022
615
1,064
No I’m taking the stance of why bother anymore with PC gaming. I can get all three consoles twice and still have money left over. And consoles performance is a bit better than PC as of late.
That's where I'm at, honestly. I have a PS5 and Switch for gaming and my Mac for everything else.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,155
2,466
OBX
No I’m taking the stance of why bother anymore with PC gaming. I can get all three consoles twice and still have money left over. And consoles performance is a bit better than PC as of late.
Ah. Yeah I can see that getting poop performance on (top tier) PC can make consoles appear to be a better choice.
 
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nasmdhgf

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2023
64
29
This is the selling point of Apple computers all the time. Even Steve Jobs can't save them. Because Apple computers were initially positioned as production tools, primarily for programming and office work, rather than gaming machines. In terms of gaming, they were developed by Windows, which indirectly influenced LINUX versions of computers. In fact, desktop computers can be equipped with large cooling systems, including water cooling.
They can install large graphics cards, and most Apple laptops are packed in narrow boxes. They pursue mobile work, which has no advantage, even for M2, and maintenance and cooling are much more troublesome.
 

nasmdhgf

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2023
64
29
In addition, Apple's lack of support for opengl and directX graphics APIs is also a major issue. Many programmers like to use these two APIs to create games. If Apple forcibly demands the use of metal, it will not be helpful for the current popularity of games. It will only push developers towards Linux and Win10-11. My game also supports DirectX11-12 by default, but there is no plan to support metal at all. In the future, I may choose Vulkan to support Nintendo's game console. I believe that creators in China and other countries will choose a path similar to mine because it is very practical, rather than blindly compromising with Apple and learning an additional technology.
Vulkan can be used on various platforms, except for the Apple system.:D
 

erayser

macrumors 65816
Apr 9, 2011
1,253
1,185
San Diego
No I’m taking the stance of why bother anymore with PC gaming. I can get all three consoles twice and still have money left over. And consoles performance is a bit better than PC as of late.
Good stance... if you are building a rig just for gaming, you're better off buying consoles. I do builds every 4 years... skipping a generation with the best components. 60% of what I do with my rig is photography and video editing... 40% instrument music recording/mixing, productivity, and browsing/streaming... 10% maybe on gaming and that's stretching it. I didn't buy a 3090 to game... I got it more for my photography/video content creation work. When the 3090 came out, it was thought of more as a productivity card for 3D modeling & video editing. When did the RTX #090 become a gaming card? Even when the 3090 reviews came out, there were no game performance gains over a 3080. As for AAA games... the only game I bought at launch was CP2077 because of the hype. I haven't bought a AAA game for my PC since. But I have bought new release games for our PS5... even bought the new Zelda game last week for the Nintendo Switch. I would like to game more on my PC... but don't have time... but I enjoy watching people game on stream more. The PS5 and Nintendo switch is more used for gaming in our house... also the Quest 2 VR headset.
 
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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,944
7,106
Perth, Western Australia
Everyone knows that Macs will never have the same selection as PCs.
I agree with your post almost 100%, however with the common architecture between mac, ipad and iphone now, using the same libraries and even running the same apps in some cases - i posit than in the future there will be MORE entertainment software available on the mac than on PC.

There may not be specific titles that some people want to play available on Mac but as you infer above there are two primarily different positions people approach mac gaming from:

  • i'm primarily a gamer, where are my games?
  • i'm primarily a mac user, what games can i play?
Those in the second camp have plenty of options - if the premise is to find something entertaining to play, not some specific title.

Those in the first camp looking for specific titles and complaining will find things to complain about whichever platform they're on if they try hard enough- because every platform has exclusives.
 
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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,944
7,106
Perth, Western Australia
Is it fair to say gaming is officially dead on Macs? Apple has transitioned to the new silicon on all their products. Does this mean there's no hope for Bootcamp? I really want to buy a MacBook, but not being able to play some of my favourite games from Blizzard is looking like a deal-breaker. Diablo 4 releases soon, but it requires DirectX 12. =/

Would Crossover for Mac work or am I out of luck?

Further to this:

As a random example... Neverwinter Nights 2 (PC, x86 game) runs just fine in a Windows 11 ARM VM in parallels. As good or better than it does on my native PC actually - possibly due to my 6900XT AMD driver being less compatible with something so old than Parallels virtual GPU is running on Apple Silicon.

Boot-camp isn't really required as the apple GPU is sane and Parallels has pretty damn good drivers for it.

Also see my above post.
 

salamanderjuice

macrumors 6502a
Feb 28, 2020
514
555
Further to this:

As a random example... Neverwinter Nights 2 (PC, x86 game) runs just fine in a Windows 11 ARM VM in parallels. As good or better than it does on my native PC actually - possibly due to my 6900XT AMD driver being less compatible with something so old than Parallels virtual GPU is running on Apple Silicon.

Boot-camp isn't really required as the apple GPU is sane and Parallels has pretty damn good drivers for it.

Also see my above post.
From what I've heard DX12 games don't work under Parallels and for new or recent demanding titles like Diablo 4 that's a must these days.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,572
43,556
From what I've heard DX12 games don't work under Parallels
You are correct

As for ARM windows/Parallels I've had mostly mixed result (in general, not specific to game playing) and I've largely abandoned running windows on my MBP.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,155
2,466
OBX
When did the RTX #090 become a gaming card? Even when the 3090 reviews came out, there were no game performance gains over a 3080.
The 3090 was the first #090 class card, so it was nvidia's first time blurring the line between a gaming card and a workstation card (I believe the titans did not run the gaming drivers out of the box). Games couldn't/didn't take advantage of the large framebuffer (like they do/can now) for it to matter.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,155
2,466
OBX
  1. DX12 still isn’t the majority of games
  2. moving forward, metal is more likely to be supported for future games, if the dev cares at all for the ipad, iphone, tvOS or mac market.
Yeah the majority of steam games that work on Windows use DX11.
Is this about the time that Macs become 50% of AAA capable gaming systems in the PC Marketplace? Because best I can tell mobile games are still treated differently from their console/desktop versions.
 
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Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,401
845
Shh! I keep hearing rumours that Apple will switch from 68k to PPC, they seem to talk to IBM... oh wait.
The AS native version has been available for a while, you just had to build it yourself instead of downloading if from the launcher. I wrote about this a few months ago.

Unfortunately UE is still broken on macOS (or let's say some features won't work). Given the situation between Epic and Apple it's understandable that they don't have a high priority on it, despite iOS mobile developer waiting for it. With Unity, I can only scratch my head why they don't fix a lot of stuff for macOS. Apple is actively marketing it and it sure works better than UE on macOS right now.


More specifically, the higher end features of UE 5 (Lumen and Nanite) and newer are broken on the Mac, while UE 4 is solid.
 
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