Lawsuit Against Apple's Faulty Butterfly Keyboards Moves Forward

[BigBoy2018]

Actually, your posts rarely have any facts (just like this thread). The vast, vast majority are grand sweeping pro-Apple opinions and defenses to any post critical of Apple. Go back and take a look at them.

Honestly, when I first came across your posts, I thought it was a parody account.

+1

 

[jonnysods]

Haha I'm so bitter about this whole thing right now. I bought the 'new' MBP in July 2019 because I was holding out for a better keyboard, and some other improvements, so when it came out I grabbed it.

Only to see that Apple was making a new MBP with a new keyboard system and a pile of other fixes and improvements just a few months later.

 

[BoycottCookApple]

The amount of utter BS from AppleInsider.

1. Not everyone was willing to paid ridiculous amount to fix their keyboard,
2. Not everyone have the problem has the luxury to have their MBP away from them for days if not weeks.
3. Most of them just decide to use an external keyboard.
4. The Data coming from specially programming community / Software business, roughly few thousands participants has been 60+% of MBP owner has those problems. ( Oh no these are not facts according to AI )

5. Not everyone has an Apple Store near them. Which means the Apple Store reported number are not an entire view of the problem

6. It is Appleinsider
7. No single Services Provider will have full details of the problem.
8. Did I mention Appleinsider?

8. Sales of Mac were not growing, it has been stable for years.
9. Active user of Mac were growing, but not at the rate as Apple has liked. nearly 60% of all Mac were sold to new users, and vast majority of them are from China. That is roughly 10M of new Mac users added to the Active number of Mac users. But did we see a 10M growth of new Mac user every year? No. ( That means there are certain number of users leaving )

10. And all these are Apple Official Numbers if you want to check them up.

11. Sorry did I mention Applesinsider?

12. The amount of BS coming from Appleinsider or DED every time Apple has a problem and they decide to spin it in Apple's way is beyond any word in the Oxford English Dictionary could possibly describe.

?? ??
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I realize that all the cool kids are hating on the butterfly keyboard, but here is a thoughtful and divergent opinion via AppleInsider.com

Excerpt:

An absolute refusal to consider facts​

This spring, AppleInsider uniquely reported details of real-world repair data from service partners going all the way back to 2012. We found that despite sales of "about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures."​

​

We also noted, "keyboard failure percentages for 2016 and 2017 'butterfly' MacBooks specifically were unchanged from the first year and beyond, and there has been no surge of people seeking repairs after Apple launched its keyboard repair program, despite significant media reports concerning problems with the butterfly keyboard and publicizing the repair program. ​

​

"Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint. Failure rates on 2018 MacBook keyboards have also been lower than on the initial crop from 2016, but about the same as they were with 2017 MacBooks."​

​

​

The bloggers who were really committed to their cause could dismiss these facts by making up logic suggesting that maybe people were suffering in silence, or buying cans of air to blow debris out of their keyboards on their own.​

​

But the larger reality that can't be explained away is that Apple's sales of Macs are clearly growing, surging last year at the launch of new 2018 butterfly MacBook Pros and reaching a new peak this year right as Apple introduced its enhanced mid-2019 butterfly 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pro models.​

​

That sales peak occurred before Apple's launch of the newest 16-inch non-butterfly model, which was widely speculated to address its keyboard feel.​

​

One can opine about their personal preferences in keyboard feel, and it's perfectly legitimate to express a preference for keys with deeper travel and so on. But the most popular claim that activist bloggers were making was that Apple's keyboards were defective and that people were not buying them.​

​

That's not a fact subject to opinion. Anyone saying that potential buyers have been racing to leave Apple to get competing notebooks from other vendors is simply wrong. It's not just incorrect, it's a $7 billion lie.​

Most people think it should rename the website to AppleOutsider.

 

[sirozha]

Nope. Usually customers don’t even need to talk to a lawyer to receive compensation from a class action lawsuit. The company will just say “fill out this form and we’ll mail you a certificate” or something like that. I know that because I’ve been involved in a couple of these the last few years.

Yeah the payouts weren’t large at all, but not once did I speak to a lawyer.

Who said you would have to speak with the lawyer?

 

[V_Man]

Remember antennagate?

Thanks to Jobs, Ive and the design team was given special authority over the engineering team. We probably wouldn’t know for sure until many decades later, but I’m guessing the design team was forcing for a thinner design laptops, that the engineering team had to come up with something. The butterfly keyboard design itself was quite amazing in a vacuum, but clearly it wasn’t ready for real world reliability.

as for why Apple replacing current butterfly keyboard units with the same one, well, the thinner design probably doesn’t allow Apple to simply switch to the new mechanism. It’s a catch22. Just be grateful that there’s a repair program to begin with.

Well if they didn’t have a repair program I’m sure it would be all over social media even more than it it. That would be a huge slap in the face to all the customers that purchased laptops the last 4 years. They discontinued at defective design.

 

[MistrSynistr]

I'm not a fan of these type of things but this is completely warranted.

 

[V_Man]

Those are completely baseless claims.
I could say “I am Tim Cook under cover and this is BS”.

The ONLY meaningful research done by Appleinsider showed than less the 10% OF THE DEFECTIVE MacBooks that went into assistance were related to keyboard issue.
WHich is a relevant statistic but FAR from the disaster you are describing here.
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Last revision (MacBook Pro 13” 2019) is from a few months ago. Apple didn’t abandon anything.
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Yes. According to my own anecdotal experience I don’t believe him
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Even if 5% of the sold keyboards are defective, it still is an huge number (millions of units).
That’s the reason for the replacement program and the decision to switch back to the scissor.
But it still is different from the “all are defective” meme you can find on forums like this.

If 5% of MacBooks keyboards are failing that a huge problem.

Yes Apple ID replacing keyboards that fail (multiple times if necessary) for the next 4 years.

What happens after that time frame. Sorry your out of luck. Take your $2500 laptop and go away or give us $500 for repair?
Should be a life time repair or replace after mult repairs with a new MacBook.

 

[robjulo]

A 10% failure rate is absolutely a disaster. I suspect, based on that opinion alone, that you haven’t spent a day working for a manufacturing company.

Those are completely baseless claims.
I could say “I am Tim Cook under cover and this is BS”.

The ONLY meaningful research done by Appleinsider showed than less the 10% OF THE DEFECTIVE MacBooks that went into assistance were related to keyboard issue.
WHich is a relevant statistic but FAR from the disaster you are describing here.
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Last revision (MacBook Pro 13” 2019) is from a few months ago. Apple didn’t abandon anything.
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Yes. According to my own anecdotal experience I don’t believe him
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Even if 5% of the sold keyboards are defective, it still is an huge number (millions of units).
That’s the reason for the replacement program and the decision to switch back to the scissor.
But it still is different from the “all are defective” meme you can find on forums like this.

 

[JoshBoy]

I’m a little concerned as I have a laptop with this keyboard yet I have never had a problem.

 

[ignatius345]

I’m a little concerned as I have a laptop with this keyboard yet I have never had a problem.

Some people don't. I guess it's luck of the draw? My wife has a retina MacBook a few years old and the her butterfly keyboard is fine. But we have a friend with a MacBook Pro and her keyboard is failing. But clearly enough people have that Apple had to institute a special repair policy that covers all butterfly keyboards including those on brand new 2019 MacBooks. That, combined with this new 16" machine returning to a scissor-switch design, is plenty indication that it's a bad keyboard design Apple is phasing out.

A laptop keyboard shouldn't be something we have to think about at all. It's been a solved technology for decades now. Remember any long discussion threads and controversy about Apple's last generation of laptop keyboard? No, nobody does. Because they just worked. They were basically invisible to the user as they should be.

The butterfly keyboard screwed that up with 1) a near-zero key travel design that turned plenty of users off because it was a radical departure from what users generally expect a keyboard to feel like; 2) an inexcusable failure rate; and 3) being fused with the upper case of the machine so as to require replacement of a substantial portion of the machine.

Good riddance.

 

[Baymowe335]

lolwhat, this “new” keyboard is only available for the expensive 16 inch models. What about 13 inches? Apple is still selling them with faulty unreliable keyboards..

Great example of it not being a huge problem.
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As of today, neither the MacBook Air nor the 13-inch MacBook Air can be bought with a redesigned keyboard.

And that's ignoring that the lawsuit is about people who have already spent thousands on a machine with a broken keyboard. Are you telling them to just buy new?



There isn't just a lawsuit. There's also a repair program.

How many % does it affect? We don't know. But it does appear that, among people who own recent Macs, it's very likely you know at least one person with an affected keyboard.

I’m telling you it isn’t a huge issue or they’d all be redesigned.
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I’ve had the keyboard on my 13” MacBook Pro replaced 3 times. It’s a lot of time, effort and resources wasted. Each time the machine goes in for repair I lose valuable time away from work and income.

It’s now malfunctioning again.

wonder if I can join the class action from Australia?

Maybe stop eating over the keyboard?

I’m sorry you had issues, but your story is anecdotal.
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Actually, your posts rarely have any facts (just like this thread). The vast, vast majority are grand sweeping pro-Apple opinions and defenses to any post critical of Apple. Go back and take a look at them.

Honestly, when I first came across your posts, I thought it was a parody account.

Go read a few more. They almost always reference sales data, growth rates, and facts from financials or earnings calls.

Most of the posts here are anecdotal, just like the keyboard failure stories. In truth, no one knows the failure rates and that’s the point.

 

[Mainsail]

...because it's on the extended repair program.

I don't see this as evidence that the 2019 KB is failure prone. This is Apple's way of reassuring customers and standing behind their product because they definitely had problems with the early versions of the KB. I rarely see posts of people having problems with the 2019 KB. So, it's irresponsible and lazy journalism to say it is still failure prone without evidence of excessive failures.

 

[rgbrock1]

Not nice when your primary work/personal laptop is out for 1-2 days at a time with the risk of losing all your data!

Risk of losing all of your data? Well, if you don't create backups, or clones, that's on you.
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For what it's worth and YMMV: I have a 2019 15" MBP with the butterfly keyboard. (Obviously).
I have been using it since the laptop was released, every day for work i.e., 5x8. I'm a systems engineer and use it very heavily during the course of the work week. I have yet to experience ANY problem with the keyboard at all. Perhaps this iteration of the butterfly mechanism has resolved the underlying issue?

 

[kemal]

My dream settlement would be the four year warranty starts over when you get a replacement top case. And the lawyers get USD20M to go away.

 

[drewyboy]

I work for a Corp with 35k headcount. I was told by our main onsite IT that company wide we had been experiencing a 17% unit failure rate due to the keyboard. Because of that the company banned any Apple laptop purchases. That was about 2 years ago I believe. So there’s my stats. Believe it or not, that’s on you, but we can’t buy Mac laptops anymore.

 

[ksec]

Where are your own numbers? You don't have any. You make sweeping comments like "most of them decide to use an external keyboard" without any evidence to support it other than the fact that, yes, you can use an external keyboard with an MBP. You're also deliberately ignoring the publicly available sales numbers for the MBP. Sales have increased since the introduction of the butterfly keyboard, not decreased.

What publicly available sales number of new MacBook Pro? Apple do not report on Unit number per model. The last number gave out was from Interview where 10% of the Mac sold were Desktop and 90% were Notebook.

The official Mac sold per year were also report and only discontinued last year. The amount of new Mac user and Active Mac users were given update in every WWDC, Annual report and September / October Event.

And most of the new sales of Mac, ( since the Laptop represent 90% of Mac, this "Mac" also means MacBook and MacBook Pro ) all goes to China.

The thousands of responds were from DHH ( Ruby on Rails Creator ) and Marco Arment Podcast.


And by the way, all of these numbers can be Fact checked, in Annual Report, WWDC, Keynote, Gruber's Interview on Distribution of Mac unit model if I remember correctly on Future of Mac Pro. DHH's Twitter on Software Community and Web Developers Statement, as well as Macro Arment Podcast.

All of those are on record. AI 's so called evidence ( Calling Apple Services Provider ) ? Could never be fact checked. And you trust their word for it?

 

[BigBoy2018]

@Baymowe335

sorry you had issues, but your story is anecdotal.

How many anecdotal stories do you need to hear before it occurs to you that the butterfly keyboards are a problem?

I hate to say this, but I actually hope your keyboard fails soon too, since thats the only anecedotal evidence that would make you question your unrelenting defense of apple

 

[V_Man]

@Baymowe335


How many anecdotal stories do you need to hear before it occurs to you that the butterfly keyboards are a problem?

I hate to say this, but I actually hope your keyboard fails soon too, since thats the only anecedotal evidence that would make you question your unrelenting defense of apple

Never argue with him. He will never call out Apple on it faults. He’s one of a few here that think Apple can do no wrong.

 

[1146331]

Great example of it not being a huge problem.
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I’m telling you it isn’t a huge issue or they’d all be redesigned.
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Maybe stop eating over the keyboard?

I’m sorry you had issues, but your story is anecdotal.
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Go read a few more. They almost always reference sales data, growth rates, and facts from financials or earnings calls.

Most of the posts here are anecdotal, just like the keyboard failure stories. In truth, no one knows the failure rates and that’s the point.

You keep using the word anecdotal in an attempt to sound intelligent and back your pro-Apple can do no wrong argument, regardless of what evidence has been shown. I have followed you on this forum and IN EVERY THREAD INVOLVING THE POS KEYBOARD YOU IGNORE ALL EVIDENCE and state that it is anecdotal.

The facts are:
There is a high failure rate for the butterfly keyboard design, Apple won't release the numbers [and you won't listen until they do].
Apple gave up on the keyboard design and is changing over to the scissor switch design next year for other models and has done so with the new 16 inch model.

People have had this keyboard failure in a clean environment where they don't eat over their keyboard.

Maybe you should just refrain from posting about the keyboard since you are always wrong, are extremely agressive towards people who are experiencing the issue, and have nothing to back your opinion other than the word "anecdotal" and your pro-Apple can do no wrong mentality despite a long trail of evidence.

 

[V_Man]

You keep using the word anecdotal in an attempt to sound intelligent and back your pro-Apple can do no wrong argument, regardless of what evidence has been shown. I have followed you on this forum and IN EVERY THREAD INVOLVING THE POS KEYBOARD YOU IGNORE ALL EVIDENCE and state that it is anecdotal.

The facts are:
There is a high failure rate for the butterfly keyboard design, Apple won't release the numbers [and you won't listen until they do].
Apple gave up on the keyboard design and is changing over to the scissor switch design next year for other models and has done so with the new 16 inch model.

People have had this keyboard failure in a clean environment where they don't eat over their keyboard.

Maybe you should just refrain from posting about the keyboard since you are always wrong, are extremely agressive towards people who are experiencing the issue, and have nothing to back your opinion other than the word "anecdotal" and your pro-Apple can do no wrong mentality despite a long trail of evidence.

That fact that Apple has a 4 year repair plan for all butterfly keyboards says it all. They know it’s a defective design or the would still use it.

 

[1rottenapple]

A federal judge this week rejected Apple's request to dismiss a class action lawsuit over its faulty butterfly keyboards, reports Reuters, which means the lawsuit will proceed.

The complainants believe that Apple knew of and concealed the fact that its 2015 and later MacBook models had keyboards prone to failure and that its repair program does not serve as an effective fix because replacement butterfly keyboards can also fail.

San Jose District Judge Edward Davila said that Apple must face the claims that the repair program is inadequate or compensate customers for their out-of-pocket expenses for repairs.

The lawsuit covers customers who purchased 2015 MacBook models or later and 2016 MacBook Pro models or later, which includes all machines that are equipped with Apple's butterfly keyboard. Apple has faced public scrutiny and many, many complaints over the butterfly keyboard's penchant to fail when exposed to dust and other small particulates.

Apple launched a repair program that covers all of its MacBook, MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air models that have a butterfly keyboard, but at the current time, all keyboard replacements are also butterfly keyboards.

Apple has attempted to revise the butterfly keyboard several times to make it more durable, but ultimately, it's still prone to failure.

With the recently released 16-inch MacBook Pro Apple eliminated the butterfly mechanism and reverted to a more reliable scissor mechanism, but the new 16-inch MacBook Pro keyboard is limited to that machine and older models are still getting repairs with butterfly keyboards.

The lawsuit is seeking damages for violations of consumer protection laws in several dates. Benjamin Johns, lawyer for the plaintiffs, told Reuters that he's pleased with the decision and looks forward to pursuing the case.

Article Link: Lawsuit Against Apple's Faulty Butterfly Keyboards Moves Forward

As a person who’s keyboard was debilitated by dust, I’m glad! Those of us who spent $1700 on our pros are on borrowed time and we will get an eventually get a repair bill costing several hundred dollars when the extended warranty runs out. It’s a working laptop but with a gimp keyboard.

 

[norbinhouston]

Good news. And probably why Jony Ive is gone from apple. The butterfly keyboard is so silly. Like the person who designed it never touched typed. If Jony was left unchecked, the next keyboard would just be just printed on a solid surface with no movement.

 

[CHA05 R31GN5]

I’m a little concerned as I have a laptop with this keyboard yet I have never had a problem.

If you use it primarily for typing quite a bit, say in the 5-6+ hour range, then give it time. If you're just a casual user, which are quite a few owners, then you may not notice it before transitioning to another notebook.

 

[sofila]

"Apple has faced public scrutiny and many, many complaints". please define "many, many": 6, 100, 1000, 10% of owners? Seems more like a made up issue by a few loud influencers, maybe even paid influencers, than a real one. I'd say it was not many, many unless the defect rate exceeded say 2% of owners.

And no don't go saying, "but there is a lawsuit". it is simply fashionable to sue Apple for anything you can. Some have merit, many are thrown out.

Except that almost everyone who has one loves them and has had no problems with them. I think it would make a better story on social influencing, that actually defective design.

I'd love just one of these "OMG there are so bad" types to come up with any statistics whatsoever. Wouldn't the after market warranty providers have a number? Certainly if they are repairing them, they must no how many

please define "a lot". In your answer you are continuing the problem. there are not a lot in any measurable way, there are a few, some. Certainly there is a defect rate, but it has never been proven to be very large at all. simply saying "many, many", or "a lot" doesn't get you there

hahahah, so funny. you can't backup your claim with any numbers, don't make it.

You seem to accept your guesses as legitimate and reject others' as made-up. You too can't provide any number but obviously are right because "you think so". You should go for a more coherent approach. In my opinion

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Apple is likely to settle to avoid having to provide actual failure statistics in discovery. Even though discovery is protected, it’s a safe bet those statistics would leak.