macOS (10.15) - the little things

[ErikGrim]

really? you want less security? and how hard is it to give an app 'clearance' once?...

The problem with the Security Through Endless Warning Dialogs school of thought is that it doesn't work. All those earnest warning dialogs eventually blend together into a giant "click here to get work done" button that nobody bothers to read any more. The operating system cries wolf so much that when a real wolf-- in the form of a virus or malware-- rolls around, you'll mindlessly allow it access to whatever it wants, just out of habit.
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2006

 

[TehFalcon]

Are those both beta 2? Looks the same to me.

yes beta 1 & 2 looked the same.

 

[fisherking]

The problem with the Security Through Endless Warning Dialogs school of thought is that it doesn't work. All those earnest warning dialogs eventually blend together into a giant "click here to get work done" button that nobody bothers to read any more. The operating system cries wolf so much that when a real wolf-- in the form of a virus or malware-- rolls around, you'll mindlessly allow it access to whatever it wants, just out of habit.​

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if you say so. here, they pop up, i get thru them once, and life goes on. and it may be true for you, but i would never 'mindlessly allow' access to a virus or malware, 'out of habit'.

 

[casperes1996]

if you say so. here, they pop up, i get thru them once, and life goes on. and it may be true for you, but i would never 'mindlessly allow' access to a virus or malware, 'out of habit'.

No but in terms of the general public what Erik says is proven to be true empirically. Windows Vista was criticised heavily for this practise for that very reason. macOS does do some things differently to try and nudge people towards more conscious decisions, but it is still a concern when you have too many dialogue boxes all the time. Allow becomes like agreeing to EULAs. Nobody reads, everyone agrees.

 

[fisherking]

No but in terms of the general public what Erik says is proven to be true empirically. Windows Vista was criticised heavily for this practise for that very reason. macOS does do some things differently to try and nudge people towards more conscious decisions, but it is still a concern when you have too many dialogue boxes all the time. Allow becomes like agreeing to EULAs. Nobody reads, everyone agrees.

and the alternative would be?...

 

[casperes1996]

and the alternative would be?...

As it stands I have no better ideas, and likes what Apple is doing. But Erik did have a point and it is something that one should be conscious of when designing these dialogue boxes. I think it's part of why Apple often doesn't have an allow button in the dialogue box but only "deny" and "Go to System Preferences", to try and make users more conscious rather than just blindly clicking yes. This of course also acts as a slowdown to proceeding with wanted software whenever you do need to accept for the first time, so is a bit of a knife-edge balance to not anger users.

I'm about to study Human Computer Interactions as part of next semester, so may return with more on the "alternatives. Certainly the system just blindly allowing access to all apps is not a good approach, so in the end it's about minimising friction whilst also maximising user consciousness of choices, which for the average computer user can be a tricky balance to strike.

 

[DanielDD]

System-wide Tabs have a 'smoother' design.

How does it look like in Light mode?

 

[cezar.cretzu]

guys I need some help. don't know if it's Catalina specific or not. since 22nd of June no iCloud photo has been synced back to my Mac (coming from the phone). theuy are all in the cloud (verified via web) but not downloading. it's true I have approx 100 files pending to upload from Mac to iCloud (downloads from my GoPro) - could that be the reason the photos from iCloud are not syncing?

 

[Feenician]

As it stands I have no better ideas, and likes what Apple is doing. But Erik did have a point and it is something that one should be conscious of when designing these dialogue boxes. I think it's part of why Apple often doesn't have an allow button in the dialogue box but only "deny" and "Go to System Preferences", to try and make users more conscious rather than just blindly clicking yes. This of course also acts as a slowdown to proceeding with wanted software whenever you do need to accept for the first time, so is a bit of a knife-edge balance to not anger users.

I'm about to study Human Computer Interactions as part of next semester, so may return with more on the "alternatives. Certainly the system just blindly allowing access to all apps is not a good approach, so in the end it's about minimising friction whilst also maximising user consciousness of choices, which for the average computer user can be a tricky balance to strike.

Seems like the main issue on macOS is forcing you to go somewhere else to action the choice. iOS doesn't do that, it just presents a Yes/No/Just this time type dialog when an app requests something. Even OAuth on the web doesn't shuffle you off to some control panel to do something, just gives you a "This app will be able to access X, Y and Z. Allow or Deny?". macOS does the right thing by informing and giving the user a choice, it's what happens after that is disjointed and clunky imo.

 

[casperes1996]

Seems like the main issue on macOS is forcing you to go somewhere else to action the choice. iOS doesn't do that, it just presents a Yes/No/Just this time type dialog when an app requests something. Even OAuth on the web doesn't shuffle you off to some control panel to do something, just gives you a "This app will be able to access X, Y and Z. Allow or Deny?". macOS does the right thing by informing and giving the user a choice, it's what happens after that is disjointed and clunky imo.

It's not exactly frictionless and smooth, but it's arguably good, since it means you can't just blindly and quickly click yes all the time. It's not the most elegant solution but it does add more steps for the user to be thoughtful.

 

[ErikGrim]

guys I need some help. don't know if it's Catalina specific or not. since 22nd of June no iCloud photo has been synced back to my Mac (coming from the phone). theuy are all in the cloud (verified via web) but not downloading. it's true I have approx 100 files pending to upload from Mac to iCloud (downloads from my GoPro) - could that be the reason the photos from iCloud are not syncing?

Check that your library is dedicated as the System Photo Library and that iCloud is checked.

 

[PastaPrimav]

really? you want less security? and how hard is it to give an app 'clearance' once?...

Yes I want far less security, like we've had for decades without issue. For the people who want to leave their Macs unattended in public spaces, they can have Apple's ridiculous changes. I want my computer to work, and stop asking for permission for every last thing. This is OBNOXIOUS and UNNECESSARY. It makes me hate using the computer.

 

[fisherking]

Yes I want far less security, like we've had for decades without issue. For the people who want to leave their Macs unattended in public spaces, they can have Apple's ridiculous changes. I want my computer to work, and stop asking for permission for every last thing. This is OBNOXIOUS and UNNECESSARY. It makes me hate using the computer.

maybe you should look at why this bothers you so much; the idea that apple should specifically address your wishes against the larger user base, and reduce security, so you won't 'hate using the computer'.

 

[gklka]

Yes I want far less security, like we've had for decades without issue. For the people who want to leave their Macs unattended in public spaces, they can have Apple's ridiculous changes. I want my computer to work, and stop asking for permission for every last thing. This is OBNOXIOUS and UNNECESSARY. It makes me hate using the computer.

Agree on that. I like that Apple cares about security, but I want a way to opt out. It's good for some non-advanced users, but for the rest of us, it is just a pain in the ass.

 

[cezar.cretzu]

Check that your library is dedicated as the System Photo Library and that iCloud is checked.

All checked and OK. It just seems like it won’t download before uploading all. Don’t know if it’s normal behavior. The problem is that it’ll take some time to upload all as I’m adding files way faster than I can back them up in this period and I have very scarce internet access. Also I’ve seen that all in GoPro album is synced in iCloud out of that album. We’ll see. All I can do is wait now.

 

[casperes1996]

Yes I want far less security, like we've had for decades without issue. For the people who want to leave their Macs unattended in public spaces, they can have Apple's ridiculous changes. I want my computer to work, and stop asking for permission for every last thing. This is OBNOXIOUS and UNNECESSARY. It makes me hate using the computer.

Then go on and disable SIP and log in as root...

 

[Populus]

I've seen the last beta of iPadOS allows you to rearrange automatically your Safari tabs in alphabetical order, or by websites. That way, you can have grouped all your MacRumors tabs, all your Reddit tabs, etc. Also, I think if you are going to open a website you already have in a tab, Safari opens that tab instead of creating a new one.

Any clue about those features coming to macOS 10.15 Catalina? Thank you.

 

[Ritsuka]

Those features are already available in Safari for Mac. Even on 10.14 and earlier.

 

[ErikGrim]

I've seen the last beta of iPadOS allows you to rearrange automatically your Safari tabs in alphabetical order, or by websites. That way, you can have grouped all your MacRumors tabs, all your Reddit tabs, etc. Also, I think if you are going to open a website you already have in a tab, Safari opens that tab instead of creating a new one.

Any clue about those features coming to macOS 10.15 Catalina? Thank you.

 

[Shirasaki]

Sorry for this noob and maybe a silly question. But, if i clean install macOS Catalina on my Mac, are the pre-installed "premium" apps like iPhotos, iMovies, Garage Band, and iWork can still be downloaded from the Mac App Store (for free of course)? Because i think if you're clean installed a macOS, that apps should be missing (not installed by default) at first?

Just like before, if you linked/bought those apps from Mac App Store before Installing Catalina from the scratch, you will be able to download them again for free as soon as you login with the Apple ID you used to download those apps.

 

[Populus]

Those features are already available in Safari for Mac. Even on 10.14 and earlier.

I can't believe it! Yes, it is already on macOS Mojave. I should have tried it before asking.

I thought this time such new features were coming first to iPadOS, for some reason.

 

[PastaPrimav]

maybe you should look at why this bothers you so much; the idea that apple should specifically address your wishes against the larger user base, and reduce security, so you won't 'hate using the computer'.

This just shows how confused you are. The majority of users do not want to approve every single website's access to the Downloads folder.

 

[fisherking]

This just shows how confused you are. The majority of users do not want to approve every single website's access to the Downloads folder.

a: am not at all confused, and b: who appointed you spokesperson for 'the majority of users'? or is that based on factual evidence you can show us....

 

[PastaPrimav]

Then go on and disable SIP and log in as root...

Because that is exactly the same as having to approve access to the Downloads folder for every single website...something we haven't needed for 16 years of Safari.

 

[casperes1996]

Because that is exactly the same as having to approve access to the Downloads folder for every single website...something we haven't needed for 16 years of Safari.

In what I replied to you said you want "far less security". That's what I gave you a solution for.

Approving downloads honestly makes good sense. It's relatively rare you need to download something and approving a download is a better way than ending up with websites pushing unwanted downloads at you.