Microsoft has no vision regarding Windows

[Ethosik]

MST is a display port feature, allows 1 cable from the computer to the first monitor, then one cable from that monitor to the 2nd. AFAIK HDMI doesn't have an equivalent.

I’m not sure I follow. My monitors have only one DisplayPort port. How is this possible? So I use USB-C to DisplayPort to connect my first display, how do I connect my second display? I don’t have any OUT ports, let alone any more DisplayPort ports left.

This sounds like a very niche feature to complain about. I never heard of this type of thing and I have been in IT for 20 years.

 

[diamond.g]

I’m not sure I follow. My monitors have only one DisplayPort port. How is this possible? So I use USB-C to DisplayPort to connect my first display, how do I connect my second display? I don’t have any OUT ports, let alone any more DisplayPort ports left.

This sounds like a very niche feature to complain about. I never heard of this type of thing and I have been in IT for 20 years.

Looks like you can use a hub as well: https://www.tripplite.com/products/multi-stream-transport-mst-hub-technology

 

[Ethosik]

Looks like you can use a hub as well: https://www.tripplite.com/products/multi-stream-transport-mst-hub-technology

And I thought this was all done with just a single cable? That’s still false. And I do believe people have gotten I think 6 displays working on M1 in a similar way.

M1 Mac external display workaround walkthrough - 9to5Mac

M1 Macs have suport for just 1 or 2 external displays. Follow along for a M1 Mac external display workaround for using up to 6.

9to5mac.com

 

[diamond.g]

And I thought this was all done with just a single cable? That’s still false. And I do believe people have gotten I think 6 displays working on M1 in a similar way.

M1 Mac external display workaround walkthrough - 9to5Mac

M1 Macs have suport for just 1 or 2 external displays. Follow along for a M1 Mac external display workaround for using up to 6.

9to5mac.com

From the Mac, yes 1 cable. Semantics would argue it was always more than 1 cable since each display needs a cable. But I believe the argument was that Apple doesn't support 1 cable from the mac to multiple monitors, natively at least. Even reading the link I used it looks like Apple systems may allow display mirroring from 1 cable, but not extended display.

 

[Ethosik]

From the Mac, yes 1 cable. Semantics would argue it was always more than 1 cable since each display needs a cable. But I believe the argument was that Apple doesn't support 1 cable from the mac to multiple monitors, natively at least. Even reading the link I used it looks like Apple systems may allow display mirroring from 1 cable, but not extended display.

It looks like macos can according to that 9 to 5 link I sent. It can allow 6 displays with “technically” one cable

 

[diamond.g]

It looks like macos can according to that 9 to 5 link I sent. It can allow 6 displays with “technically” one cable

Yeah I just looked at the link you sent. It looks that DisplayLink is a driver/app? Comments complained about it not working sometimes after macOS updates.

 

[Ethosik]

Yeah I just looked at the link you sent. It looks that DisplayLink is a driver/app? Comments complained about it not working sometimes after macOS updates.

Yeah just like with windows.

Well if you want to get that technical about this. Windows itself doesn’t support MST. It’s the driver of the video card. Heck I can’t even use two displays on my desktop while in safe mode due to the basic VGA driver being limited.

So if we are talking about “native” here, we need to look at the basic VGA adapter in Windows native.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

This sounds like a very niche feature to complain about. I never heard of this type of thing and I have been in IT for 20 years.

It's not a niche feature. It's the type of feature that everyone in my company expected, and was very confused when it didn't work.

In short, MST is a way to piggyback multiple display signals in a single DisplayPort signal. Since USB-C can carry a display port signal, what this effectively means is that a single USB-C cable can power 2 monitors as well as a USB hub for a mouse/keyboard/etc. I can, with a single cable, turn my Surface Go or MBP running Windows via Bootcamp into a multi-monitor desktop.

I can't do that with macOS.

 

[mi7chy]

Problem is several years ago I wanted to download FileZilla from the official website. I mistyped it and my Windows got infected since it exploited a security hole in the browser. I got infected without installing anything. And I had an AV software too that did not help.

Last time I was affected by drive by malware it was Windows 98 and Internet Explorer so a lot more than several years ago. Ever since switching to Chrome it's been a non-issue. It would've covered user error like yours since urls are cached, Safe Browsing to flag malware sites and malware downloads. Google has the best track record when it comes to security so I use it over Microsoft, Apple, etc.

 

[LordVic]

This topic is a lie!
Microsoft has vision for windows

it's called "Microsoft employee make work project" coupled with "lets piss off system administrators as much as possible"

that's their goals with windows.

 

[LordVic]

Microsoft got its supporter base because they learned it at school. Take Excel. Praised by all. From a software design view it is full of functionality home users will never use. MS even added things that never should have existed in a spreadsheet. Hence why Numbers does not have it.

And yes some things are awesome eg pivot tables (which make more sense in a database btw). But businesses! Sure. Most lawyers use MS Word. A lot of lawyers have never heard of headings.

Same goes for Windows. The geeks can customize a lot. Most users don't. Yet the possibility to customize that much ends up in security risks. And imagine a pc not recognizing a driver.

Apple is right. A pc ought to be a device that works from the box.

no, microsoft got the supporter base because they delivered an enterprise Grade operating system that was configurable and manageable from a centrlized administrative configuration. And has been this way effectively since Windows 3.11 for Workgroups.

They had the tools such as Office, Word and Excel that are still more dvanced than the competition in features (though most people don't need it all).

they were one of the first companies to have full WYSIWIG based spreadsheets and word processing available en mass for both consumer and enterprise.

Windows got it's 90% share of all computers by actually being able to support 90%+ of all computers. Which is what people needed. Especially in enterprise where you may be stuck supporting legacy software fro 10+ years. Something that the other consumer OS's in particular such as MacOS or Linux (barely in existence early on) were completely uncompetitive with. Heck, even to this day, MacOS is tricky because Apple has no problem cutting legacy support within a few years, sometimes at their own whim. Where Microsoft, Might seem like windows supports so much as a problem, but it's the ability to continously support legacy, even 20 years later that re-assures administrators that Windows CAN be a suitable platform for enterprise.


Don't get me wrong. I hate it. and want off windows

 

[grandM]

no, microsoft got the supporter base because they delivered an enterprise Grade operating system that was configurable and manageable from a centrlized administrative configuration. And has been this way effectively since Windows 3.11 for Workgroups.

They had the tools such as Office, Word and Excel that are still more dvanced than the competition in features (though most people don't need it all).

they were one of the first companies to have full WYSIWIG based spreadsheets and word processing available en mass for both consumer and enterprise.

Windows got it's 90% share of all computers by actually being able to support 90%+ of all computers. Which is what people needed. Especially in enterprise where you may be stuck supporting legacy software fro 10+ years. Something that the other consumer OS's in particular such as MacOS or Linux (barely in existence early on) were completely uncompetitive with. Heck, even to this day, MacOS is tricky because Apple has no problem cutting legacy support within a few years, sometimes at their own whim. Where Microsoft, Might seem like windows supports so much as a problem, but it's the ability to continously support legacy, even 20 years later that re-assures administrators that Windows CAN be a suitable platform for enterprise.


Don't get me wrong. I hate it. and want off windows

Sure system admins in business environments.
I don't know if Novell supported MacOS. Didn't MacOS have its own server software?
That first WYSIWIG sure.
Let's talk home computers in 2021 now.

And most users can't work with Word.

 

[Ethosik]

It's not a niche feature. It's the type of feature that everyone in my company expected, and was very confused when it didn't work.

In short, MST is a way to piggyback multiple display signals in a single DisplayPort signal. Since USB-C can carry a display port signal, what this effectively means is that a single USB-C cable can power 2 monitors as well as a USB hub for a mouse/keyboard/etc. I can, with a single cable, turn my Surface Go or MBP running Windows via Bootcamp into a multi-monitor desktop.

I can't do that with macOS.

You can accomplish something similar with DisplayLink. Again, to say Windows has this natively is not correct as the built in VGA basic drivers do not support even multiple displays on my $2,500 gaming system. I need the actual NVIDIA or AMD drivers (just like you will need DisplayLink drivers on macOS) to accomplish something like this.

 

[lcseds]

Well, I must be an unlucky Mac owner. In MY experience, when it wants to update the OS, (same version but newer step), and I resist, I have an odd slow down until I reboot and the update loads. Then it's okay. That's after a manual check. Sometimes after an automatic update (which is a LOT more common in the last few years, almost like Windows Tuesdays), it seems to slow down, until I reboot and it reloads, then all is well. And then there will be a general slowdown when using Safari. I check activity monitor, and memory is well into the "yellow". Reboot, and it is barely into the green. All is well.

Bottom line FOR ME, is gripe all you want about Windows and it's updates, but at least they seem honest about them. Apple, does things they don't tell you about (iPhone battery and performance anyone?). Many will rave about background updates, but isn't that hiding shortcomings (aka fixes) from the user? A little less transparency there. And until you bring updates into line with where Apple wants them, there "may be a minimal impact on performance until the improvements are installed".

 

[LordVic]

Well, I must be an unlucky Mac owner. In MY experience, when it wants to update the OS, (same version but newer step), and I resist, I have an odd slow down until I reboot and the update loads. Then it's okay. That's after a manual check. Sometimes after an automatic update (which is a LOT more common in the last few years, almost like Windows Tuesdays), it seems to slow down, until I reboot and it reloads, then all is well. And then there will be a general slowdown when using Safari. I check activity monitor, and memory is well into the "yellow". Reboot, and it is barely into the green. All is well.

Bottom line FOR ME, is gripe all you want about Windows and it's updates, but at least they seem honest about them. Apple, does things they don't tell you about (iPhone battery and performance anyone?). Many will rave about background updates, but isn't that hiding shortcomings (aka fixes) from the user? A little less transparency there. And until you bring updates into line with where Apple wants them, there "may be a minimal impact on performance until the improvements are installed".

You should check with your process list when it starts getting slow like that.

Chances are there's nothing Apple is doing directly that says "Slow down this computer until the update is Applied"

more likely, Apple's just deciding that since the download is there, it's pre-indexing somethin,g, or even still downloading.

I'd be genuinely curious to see what the OS itself is doing during the slow down.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

You can accomplish something similar with DisplayLink. Again, to say Windows has this natively is not correct as the built in VGA basic drivers do not support even multiple displays on my $2,500 gaming system. I need the actual NVIDIA or AMD drivers (just like you will need DisplayLink drivers on macOS) to accomplish something like this.

Why do you keep repeating this? It's wrong. MST has been supported since the DisplayPort 1.2 standard and Windows 7. It works with Intel GPUs, not just AMD or NVIDIA, and of course you need drivers, otherwise you can't see anything on the display*. Windows, by default, will install appropriate drivers for you.

Likewise, Linux supports it. It looks like it's supported natively (again, remember that Linux ships with built in drivers for the GPU manufacturers) since around 2014 or so.

macOS has display drivers, too, Apple just doesn't brand them with Intel, AMD, or nVidia.

* Windows has a standard VGA compatible driver, but it's mostly for troubleshooting or as a fallback if your drivers get corrupted. It limits output to 640x480. That probably doesn't support MST, but please don't tell me you think that using that driver is normal for PC users.

 

[Ethosik]

Why do you keep repeating this? It's wrong. MST has been supported since the DisplayPort 1.2 standard and Windows 7. It works with Intel GPUs, not just AMD or NVIDIA, and of course you need drivers, otherwise you can't see anything on the display*. Windows, by default, will install appropriate drivers for you.

Likewise, Linux supports it. It looks like it's supported natively (again, remember that Linux ships with built in drivers for the GPU manufacturers) since around 2014 or so.

macOS has display drivers, too, Apple just doesn't brand them with Intel, AMD, or nVidia.

* Windows has a standard VGA compatible driver, but it's mostly for troubleshooting or as a fallback if your drivers get corrupted. It limits output to 640x480. That probably doesn't support MST, but please don't tell me you think that using that driver is normal for PC users.

You keep saying Windows supports it natively. But you need NVIDIA, AMD or Intel GPU drivers to enable all of this. Therefore, it is NOT native supported. Only the standard VGA adapter is native.

Are you sure Windows supports this, or is it the driver that supports this? HUGE distinction there, as people are saying "Windows is awesome for supporting MST while macOS does not". Is it truly Microsoft's operating system, or is it just a driver thing? I am just trying to understand here, not making an argument. Is it truly baked in the Windows operating system code, or is it up to NVIDIA, AMD and Intel to give this support?

And likewise, if you want something similar on macOS, you can use DisplayLink - which is a driver similar to how AMD, NVIDIA and Intel needs a driver for things to work properly.

Again this is a very niche thing to complain so aggressively about. I have supported dozens of businesses and they NEVER used MST. Thousands and thousands of PCs and laptops over my 20 years of experience and they do not use MST. They get the appropriate device for their work. If something needs two video outputs, they get a device that uses it.

 

[maflynn]

You keep saying Windows supports it natively. But you need NVIDIA, AMD or Intel GPU drivers to enable all of this. Therefore, it is NOT native supported. Only the standard VGA adapter is native.

Not for nothing, but there are only nvidia, amd and intel for gpus, so having those drivers shouldn't be an issue

 

[Ethosik]

Not for nothing, but there are only nvidia, amd and intel for gpus, so having those drivers shouldn't be an issue

That is not the point, Windows doesn't support it natively as was reported it did, its the drivers that support it. And like I said, you can use DisplayLink driver to accomplish the same thing for up to 6 displays on the M1 MacBook Pro. So I am not sure what the issue is here.

 

[maflynn]

That is not the point, Windows doesn't support it natively as was reported

What is native for windows? I'm not trying to sound coy, but rather point out that one of the strengths of windows is being able to extend its functionality. btw, I've never heard of that functionality and I've never even heard of it until now - I kind of think of myself having a decent amount knowledge of windows as well

 

[Ethosik]

What is native for windows? I'm not trying to sound coy, but rather point out that one of the strengths of windows is being able to extend its functionality. btw, I've never heard of that functionality and I've never even heard of it until now - I kind of think of myself having a decent amount knowledge of windows as well

macOS can be extended too. A lot of people extend on the core macOS experience to do their work and fit their needs. I like macOS, Windows and Linux equally for different reasons. I do think Microsoft is making a huge mistake with Windows 11 though. Their system requirements would have been a good time to let go of all the 20+ years of bloat Windows has to deal with. But unfortunately, we still have some dialogs from Windows 95 present in Windows 11.

Which functionality haven't you heard about?

 

[thejadedmonkey]

You keep saying Windows supports it natively. But you need NVIDIA, AMD or Intel GPU drivers to enable all of this. Therefore, it is NOT native supported. Only the standard VGA adapter is native.

Are you sure Windows supports this, or is it the driver that supports this? HUGE distinction there, as people are saying "Windows is awesome for supporting MST while macOS does not". Is it truly Microsoft's operating system, or is it just a driver thing? I am just trying to understand here, not making an argument. Is it truly baked in the Windows operating system code, or is it up to NVIDIA, AMD and Intel to give this support?

And likewise, if you want something similar on macOS, you can use DisplayLink - which is a driver similar to how AMD, NVIDIA and Intel needs a driver for things to work properly.

Again this is a very niche thing to complain so aggressively about. I have supported dozens of businesses and they NEVER used MST. Thousands and thousands of PCs and laptops over my 20 years of experience and they do not use MST. They get the appropriate device for their work. If something needs two video outputs, they get a device that uses it.

Without being able to view the Windows source code, I can only speculate. However, MST (or perhaps MST support) was introduced in Windows 7. It did not exist in Vista, which by and large used an unchanged driver model between Vista and 7, so I'm going to guess that it absolutely includes some form of native support in Windows as well as possibly driver support. I say possibly because I can never find any instance of it needing a specific driver version.

Such as, on this page from Intel, where they discuss hardware requirements but never driver requirements: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...m,has a DisplayPort 1.2 port and supports MST

 

[thefriendshipmachine]

This thread aged incredibly poorly in a short period of time. Windows 11 on the Surface Pro X is an iPad killer. This coming from someone who's owned then iPad since version 1.

Microsoft has made the entire user interface touch friendly, with a vastly improved touch typing experience as well as swipe gestures.

The iPad with its beautiful hardware is stuck in prison with a painfully crippled operating system. You can have your M1 but can't even sign a PDF with it. In contrast, my entire windows and linux development environment runs flawlessly on the Surface Pro X. It's capable of running Windows software, Linux software through WSL (CLI + GUI) and x86 and amd64 software via emulation. And soon Android app support. All with a touch friendly interface. It puts the ipad to shame. iPad may have mind blowing faster hardware, but it doesn't matter at all because you just can't do very much with it.

With Windows 11, Microsoft is taking on both Apple (the iPad) and Google (with Android support).

Apple will have to retaliate now by opening up iOS even more over time. Make no mistake, the Surface + Windows 11 is currently a real iPad killer. And it's only going to improve as Windows 11 officially launches, as the SQ3 chip is released in the Surface lineup this year, and as Android support is added to W11.

 

[paintstone]

I was really looking forward Windows 11, but its just a

Where may I ask is this faith you have in the company to change or "come back to life"

Windows 11 looks good on the surface but as you dig deeper into OS. You find design styles dating back 30 years.

Right, that whole "judging books by covers" has hopefully dispelled that myth.

Nope, I doubt they ever had any more depth of creative quality engineering since Balmer took over, he is an easy tarket but Bill handed him the company but when the value of the company goes up when the CEO steps down "Here is your sign"

That man is a creative and artistic sinkhole

"Microsoft shares surge on Ballmer retirement news"​

How can anyone seriously take MSFT at their word when the stock goes up because one of the original founders stepped down.

Microsoft is a case study for "Talk an amazing game" but "hire dirt cheap developers" and micromanage the **** out of anybody even remotely talented because you hire insecure nincompoops who probably couldn't spell creativity or design. Then at product launch attempt to overcome your garbage and buggy engineering with Marketing!

MS has no vision with Windows.

Post Ballmer there hasn't been one significant new product, they went in and fixed a few products that were really close to the dust bin of irrelevance but other than buying companies... what have they don't again?



Overall MS is all over the place with Windows. No consistency at all.

That said I am waiting for June 24. Still like MS software and Apple software unlike Google they both invest long-term.

Why?

They have done nothing of note since Windows was originally made and you said it yourself that "You find design styles dating back 30 years"

That's when they last could attract real talent! Microsoft is where talent goes to retire then die.

I feel like I could start a Megathread about this, each sentence you write documents a prior issue that has been ongoing and either completely dismissed by MSFT. This company doesn't value the quality of the product as much as they do the quality of how good their marketing sounds... Microsoft has become a company that smells its own farts all day.

They haven't had a revolutionary or impressive product outside of XBOX and Windows NT so 97 and 2001 were its glory years in terms of potential.

Yet you carry their flag like a 35-year-old who still thinks he is cool wearing his old letterman jacket. It might be cool if you professionally play football or you are a coach but as a player...hang up the jacket and move on in life.

Where did they earn this everlasting wellspring of undying apology they get from you?

They burned me so many times I stop reaching back.

I buy Mac hardware at about 1/2 or 2/3rds of brand new market prices and have learned how to spot the good hardware. There hasn't been one crash on my network due to software or hardware in 9 years now.

How did they earn your trust and what will it actually take for to leave them because as you state

That said I am waiting for June 24. Still like MS software and Apple software unlike Google they both invest long-term.

Where is this long-term investment of theirs? What is your return? When will you see space in your head is their investment. What Microsoft now sells is locked in long-term software nostalgia that leaks memory like a sieve, is buggy and expensive.

 

[grmlin]

This thread aged incredibly poorly in a short period of time. Windows 11 on the Surface Pro X is an iPad killer. This coming from someone who's owned then iPad since version 1.

Microsoft has made the entire user interface touch friendly, with a vastly improved touch typing experience as well as swipe gestures.

The iPad with its beautiful hardware is stuck in prison with a painfully crippled operating system. You can have your M1 but can't even sign a PDF with it. In contrast, my entire windows and linux development environment runs flawlessly on the Surface Pro X. It's capable of running Windows software, Linux software through WSL (CLI + GUI) and x86 and amd64 software via emulation. And soon Android app support. All with a touch friendly interface. It puts the ipad to shame. iPad may have mind blowing faster hardware, but it doesn't matter at all because you just can't do very much with it.

With Windows 11, Microsoft is taking on both Apple (the iPad) and Google (with Android support).

Apple will have to retaliate now by opening up iOS even more over time. Make no mistake, the Surface + Windows 11 is currently a real iPad killer. And it's only going to improve as Windows 11 officially launches, as the SQ3 chip is released in the Surface lineup this year, and as Android support is added to W11.

You can buy the best Tablet which is an iPad or something that’s running Windows, Linux and Android. With Linux and WSL running especially great using a touchscreen lol.
I made peace with the iPad being a separate thing for now, it’s just so good and I don’t want to use anything else anymore for my private needs