Panther 10.3.8 Released to Developers

[FoxyKaye]

Is it my imagination or have the recent rash of releases been problematic?

Seems to me to be "yes and no". I've been happily applying Jaguar software updates on my systems through 10.2.8 (thanks to MR, I avoided the ill-fated 10.2.7 update) with little difficulty.

The Panther updates *did* cause problems for folks, it would seem as if 10.3.5 and 10.3.6 did the most damage: that weird DNS thing and the problems with external FireWire drives (both of which Apple acknowledged by 10.3.7).

For me, all of the Panther updates were fine until 10.3.6, which literally caused me to have to reformat and reinstall. In retrospect, I was also encountering the DNS problem, though kept thinking it was faulty hardware (my DSL modem or router) or ISP problems (my ISP was doing a lot of hardware upgrades during this time) that would resolve themselves or be resolved in $100 or less. Haven't encountered it now that I'm running 10.3.7.

Reviewing the boards for the 10.3.5 and 10.3.6 updates, users who were experiencing problems seemed to break down in to several categories: legitimate problems, imagined problems ("Wow, this update took 1.3 fps away from Doom!"), self-induced problems ("I haven't done any permissions repair since 10.3.1, I've installed two versions of CandyBar, haven't backed up my data, and now I've lost everything!"), and what I'll call the "random quirk problems" in which the user does everything right and something still goes wrong.

Maybe this is a really Zen approach to my computing, but I look at it like this: I don't do anything on my home system that is so critical to my livelihood that it couldn't disappear for a few days to a week. I've got regular system maintenance, data backup/recovery procedures and other steps in place to ensure that if something does go wrong I can be up and running again within 24 hours. Even the Web sites I host from home aren't that important, and certainly don't contribute hugely to the Internet as a whole. So, I feel freer to play with my home system then the ones that we use at work - I sometimes use it as a test-bed for stuff we'd like to install at work but I'm afraid would affect our mission-critical stability. Of course, I'd feel differently about this if I worked from home...

Anyhow, I suppose this is a long-winded way of saying that no software update from Apple is perfect, and depending on system configurations (especially folks with hot-rodded systems or lots of software haxies) they can be problematic. However, I'll be looking forward to 10.3.8 because I know that Apple's trying to improve its OS in a way that I haven't really seen M$ do since WindowsNT. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for DVR-108 native support in 10.3.8, and looking forward to a more stable system regardless.

Oh, and please folks, software update numbers are just that: means of tracking significant OS updates. They'll never run out as long as there's an infinite amount of numbers in the universe. If Panther gets to 10.3.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9.9, then so be it - I'm certain the folks at Apple won't hold off from making a software revision because they don't know what to call it.

 

[Tuttle]

The new stuff and amount of work Apple is putting into Tiger is extraordinary. Most of it is not as immediately visible as something like Expose, and the benefits will only really be realized over the coming year as the stuff developers are working on now begin surface to the general public. OS X developers are like kids in a new candy store right now. The amount of man hours Apple is putting into this upgrade make paying full price an amazing bargain.

It's too bad about the dismal situation the graphics card driver situation is for OS X. It has been very much fix a bug, add a bug for some time now including this upcoming release. I don't think there is any reason to hope the situation will get any better with Tiger.

 

[MacsRgr8]

Hopefully this update will fix the poor performance woes of the 6800 series. Those cards are seriously underperforming right now when compared with their PC counterparts and the X800 XT (Mac), and it is definitely a driver issue.

Seriously underperforming is a bit exaggerated.
Reviewing the tests done at BareFeats, InsideMacGames and Anandtech, I think there is little difference between the X800 and the 6800 Ultra, except for the $ 100,- which makes the Radeon a better buy.
But it is a fact that Apple's drivers for the nVidia are by no means optimal. In the PC world the 6800 Ultra is the top dog OpenGL card, and on the Mac side, it is not. So, I expect that the 6800 series will perform better with every Panther update.
I wonder how well it does on Tiger....

 

[Zaty]

Kernel update

I noticed that Apple is said to update the system kernel with 10.3.8. When was the last time they did this?

As for the version numbers, Apple could go to 10.3.10, 10.3.11 etc. if they have to. Although I guess there is good chance that 10.3.8 will be the last update for Panther. But that of course depends on Tiger.

 

[maradong]

I noticed that Apple is said to update the system kernel with 10.3.8. When was the last time they did this?

As for the version numbers, Apple could go to 10.3.10, 10.3.11 etc. if they have to. Although I guess there is good chance that 10.3.8 will be the last update for Panther. But that of course depends on Tiger.

Well, of course they _could_ go on with new releases, but I strongly doubt that they will do so. I mean, it's way better if they concentrate on 10.4 than to bring new releases on 10.3.

Security fixes for 10.3.7 or 10.3.8 is an absolute necessity, but I don't think that new features or a lot of core work are a good idea. That may be just me thought.

 

[invaLPsion]

Seriously underperforming is a bit exaggerated.
Reviewing the tests done at BareFeats, InsideMacGames and Anandtech, I think there is little difference between the X800 and the 6800 Ultra, except for the $ 100,- which makes the Radeon a better buy.
But it is a fact that Apple's drivers for the nVidia are by no means optimal. In the PC world the 6800 Ultra is the top dog OpenGL card, and on the Mac side, it is not. So, I expect that the 6800 series will perform better with every Panther update.
I wonder how well it does on Tiger....

Seriously underperforming is truth. In no game run at 1280 by 1024 should this card ever dip under 30 or even 20 frames per second. But this, it does, quite frequently.

 

[CubaTBird]

i could see us going to this dot release before tiger comes out.. similar to what happend with jaguar and panther

 

[MacsRgr8]

Seriously underperforming is truth. In no game run at 1280 by 1024 should this card ever dip under 30 or even 20 frames per second. But this, it does, quite frequently.

Well, then the X800 is also seriously underperforming. According to those tests, there isn't much difference between the Ultra and the X800.

 

[invaLPsion]

Well, then the X800 is also seriously underperforming. According to those tests, there isn't much difference between the Ultra and the X800.

We'll just have to wait and see if Apple fixes the performance issues with the 6800 series. I'm 100% sure that is what they mean by "Nvidia performance bugs."

 

[wdlove]

Well, of course they _could_ go on with new releases, but I strongly doubt that they will do so. I mean, it's way better if they concentrate on 10.4 than to bring new releases on 10.3.

Security fixes for 10.3.7 or 10.3.8 is an absolute necessity, but I don't think that new features or a lot of core work are a good idea. That may be just me thought.

I think that they are going to try to make Panther as stable as possible. So I still look for more updates. Especially with the pace that this updates have been released.

 

[MacsRgr8]

We'll just have to wait and see if Apple fixes the performance issues with the 6800 series. I'm 100% sure that is what they mean by "Nvidia performance bugs."

I agree. And I hope so too. I own an 6800 Ultra, and would love to see this card live up to its expectation.
I assume that ATi will be updating their Radeon drivers this week, aiming for the best performance of all grfx cards on a Mac.
Doom 3 will obviously be the benchmark. Both Apple (not nVidia themselves unfortunately) and ATi have a couple more weeks to tweak their drivers.

Let the games begin

 

[hcuar]

I agree. And I hope so too. I own an 6800 Ultra, and would love to see this card live up to its expectation.
I assume that ATi will be updating their Radeon drivers this week, aiming for the best performance of all grfx cards on a Mac.
Doom 3 will obviously be the benchmark. Both Apple (not nVidia themselves unfortunately) and ATi have a couple more weeks to tweak their drivers.

Let the games begin

Yuck... Doom 3. Wouldn't waste my time or money. Pick it up in the bargain bin. It might be the obvious benchmark, but just a warning to people thinking of buying it when available.

 

[Nermal]

What I'm interested in finding out is whether 10.3.8 adds support for any double layer DVD writers. I believe you currently need to use PatchBurn in order to use DL drives.

 

[LimeiBook86]

What I'm interested in finding out is whether 10.3.8 adds support for any double layer DVD writers. I believe you currently need to use PatchBurn in order to use DL drives.

Now that I think of it that is one major disadvantage in Mac OS X. Although I don't own a DL drive (I didn't even knew they were compatible), I'd think that maybe we can hope for Tiger to have it. Although someone probably didn't think of this and it won't be for a while until Apple updates it. But we can all hope and I could be wrong. That would be a nice thing.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

What I'm interested in finding out is whether 10.3.8 adds support for any double layer DVD writers. I believe you currently need to use PatchBurn in order to use DL drives.

Then why are AppleStore selling LaCie 16x d2 DVD+/-RW Double Layer Drive for $199 and getting several reviews that it works great...???

 

[erroneous]

I'm hoping that 10.3.8 fixed whatever it was they did to the QE system that stops it from working on Radio 9200 PCI cards. There's a very simple configuration file hack to enable QE on this card. Annoyingly for me I bought a 9200 PCI card for my G5 to drive a third monitor last week, just a few days after I upgraded to 10.3.7. Such fine timing.

Makes using expose on the two main 9600xt displays clunk like heck, not just on the tertiary display, even though the test tools still report the mains displays as accelerated. The window-resizing expose functions generate one, two at the most, intermediate frames of eye-candy.

I knew when I got the card that PCI cards didn't officially support QE, but it's a shame to see a feature many people on older pre-AGP Macs have been using for so long disappear.

There's a work-around, but it involves extracting the Core graphics system from the 10.3.6 updater and overwriting those files on a 10.3.7 machine. That doesn't seem remotely sensible to me.

 

[relimw]

My predicition: 10.3.8 on Tuesday Jan 25.

Any bets?

 

[wdlove]

My predicition: 10.3.8 on Tuesday Jan 25.

Any bets?

Sounds to me like a good of a date as any. It will be after the release on the 22nd. What kind of bet were you making? If nothing else, is you are correct, then you will have bragging rights on that date.

 

[relimw]

Sounds to me like a good of a date as any. It will be after the release on the 22nd. What kind of bet were you making? If nothing else, is you are correct, then you will have bragging rights on that date.

Hmm, I was thinking only bragging rights, but why not make it useful, and say a small monetary contribution to the opensource software of the winner's choice?

 

[daveL]

7U7

New seed came out yesterday. It continues to focus on graphics drivers and OpenGL performance and mentions game performance, as previously reported.

 

[MacsRgr8]

New seed came out yesterday. It continues to focus on graphics drivers and OpenGL performance and mentions game performance, as previously reported.

This is unheard of!
Apple really truly aiming performance gains on games?!? WOW!

It would be so nice if my GeForce 6800 Ultra would perform as it should.
Especially now that the newest PC vs Mac benchmarking app will be launched soon: Doom 3

This über grfx card must start performing. And not only as a 30" must have...

 

[centauratlas]

Why Page 2?

I was curious why this was a page 2 item. It isn't like some of the iHome stuff....it is well confirmed from what I've read.

 

[Benj]

I was curious why this was a page 2 item. It isn't like some of the iHome stuff....it is well confirmed from what I've read.

Post #18.

All anyone cares about at the moment is Mac Mini and all things iPod. (With a touch of iLife and iWork....)

 

[wdlove]

Hmm, I was thinking only bragging rights, but why not make it useful, and say a small monetary contribution to the opensource software of the winner's choice?

The company in your signature, Opensource 3D Game engine, appears to be a very worthy company. Are you connected with the site?

 

[relimw]

The company in your signature, Opensource 3D Game engine, appears to be a very worthy company. Are you connected with the site?

I was providing nightly Mac builds for the project, but after a HD crash, and then landing myself in the hospital for a week (2004 was a crappy year), I now only provide developer access to my machine as a on-demand build machine.

CrystalSpace is a good project, and I wish more people would actively and publicly make use of it. The largest project using it right now is Planeshift, a MMORPG.