PayPal Played Role in EU Antitrust Complaint About Apple Wallet

[dk001]

Rubbish. They didn't add "NFC" as a feature and then restricted the use of it. "NFC" was never once advertised as a feature of the iPhone. What was advertised was ApplePay and Apple Wallet with the ability to handle contactless payments via NFC.

What right does the EU have - or any other body, for that matter - to dictate to a private company which parts of their products must be accessible to the public? Should the EU force car makers to provide public APIs to all vehicle functions and all sensors? Etc., etc.

Why does the EU need to get into the middle of this at all? If Apple's refusal to create a public API to its NFC chip and mobile payment apps such as PayPal can't provide NFC payments on iOS, then consumers that value PayPal can vote with their wallets and buy an Android device! Let the free market decide these things!

Apple Restricting Use of NFC Antenna in iPhone 6 and 6 Plus to Apple Pay

The NFC antenna found on Apple's iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus will only be used with the company's "Apple Pay" mobile payment solution...

www.macrumors.com

 

[dk001]

They invented the mechanism that has allowed 1000s of banks around the world to allow their card to be linked to apples system. They also allow for FaceID that is the only one of its kind that is certified to be used for payments.

Allowing one wallet means allowing any wallet. Because of the trust Apple has generated people can use that trust against customers.

Not seeing your point. So Apple added NFC to iPhone 6 and introduced Apple Pay. Apple can add all the bells and whistles it wants (you realize FaceID is more convenience than security) however they have not allowed any other to use NFC in a similar manner in a 3rd party app.

 

[visualseed]

It'll be interesting to see how these platforms adjust to being forced to open everything up. It's no longer a business decision but one made by regulators on what direction a platform should go next.

It entrenches the existing players but grinds innovation to a halt with everyone else. No company is going to invest in bringing a product to market if they have no competitive advantage in doing so. This will trickle down to the startup phase in the coming years where VCs will pass on ideas that may run afoul of regulators. People don't understood that much of our quality of life and consistency in service is only made possible by big businesses. Hundreds of small businesses no matter how well-intentioned can never deliver anything on par for as many people with the same uniform consistency.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

What about PayPal's 6% commission for all payments?

Ugh, I don’t know, that sounds like a lot to me. They should have to lower that to 1%.

 

[SFjohn]

For the people that actually care about this, there is Android. Please stop trying to turn our Apple devices into poo. We pay a premium for this walled garden.

 

[CWallace]

That is short sighted. Why cut them off? If Apple allows all and 3rd party will only do theirs, most would move or stay with Apple's. Don't throw away users.

I think Apple should be allowed to continue to control who and what are included in the Wallet App because that is Apple's IP and third-party transactions can be performed outside of that app.

Opening up NFC via an API that third-party apps can access in order to be able to do Tap to Pay from their own app is, IMO, sufficient.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Ironically, no one in the US was interested in NFC payment when Apple introduced Apple Pay. It took years of work going bank by bank to build a secure functionality into the OS and hardware of the iPhone. The 3rd parties are garbage. It’s Apple’s built in security that makes people want to use it.

The banks and retailers have actually gotten together SEVERAL times to build something, the latest being CurrentC I think?

What Happened to CurrentC?: When Platform Innovation Fails

We’re waiting for CurrentC. That was the response from a host of major retailers when Apple launched its much-awaited payments app, Apple Pay, in October

www.applicoinc.com

They really had no idea. They still don’t.

 

[4jasontv]

That comment makes no sense at all.

No, because a normal wallet can hold both.. In this case, Apple is the wallet and they choose what you can hold.

is your argument that the wallet app is poorly named? Because it's not a real wallet. You can't put anything physically inside of it. I can't fathom the entitlement that you get to decide what payment systems you can use on your phone. You can't install android apps on your phone either. It's up to the developer to make an iOS app, that follows the App Store rules. In the same spirit payment platforms have to make their systems iOS compatible and follow Apple's rules.

Any anger you have at this needs to be directed at the payment platform for not supporting Apple and agreeing to their policy.

No it’s not, and it’s a ridiculously bad-faith argument to even suggest the two scenarios are comparable; it’s ludicrous to have to decide what phone you want to buy based on if it is compatible with your bank card or payment service of choice.

And yet software is sold as-is with the argument that you knew what it could do when you purchased it...
Payment is no different than the App Store. if the bank agrees to and follows Apple's rules you get to use their card on the iPhone. Direct your displeasure at the people causing the issue, the banks.

The metaphor is laughably flawed. There is no reason for Apple to limit NFC to Apple apps beyond giving Apple a competitive edge, one they aren’t not entitled to as the device manufacturer rather than end user.

Giving Apple a competitive edge is a good reason. They did all the work and took all the risks. Of course they should get final say over what their reward will be.

What’s next, GM buys Coca-cola and designs the cup holders to eject Pepsi products?

Cars already have limited support for drinks. Some let you use coffee mugs, some have drink weight limits. If they wanted to team up with Coke to make it impossible to drive with Pepsi that's their call.

Hyundai buys Spotify and only lets the aux and usb inputs work with the Spotify app?

This is a bad example because Spotify already doesn't work.

Remember that every argument Apple makes can than be used by other companies to limit consumer choice;

Which is within their rights.

Apple policy does not exist in a vacuum or above the fray of competition like on some Mount Olympus. They are a company, a public one with fiduciary responsibilities to shareholders; there primary goal, as required by law, must always be to maximize profit and provide the best value to those shareholders.

This isn't entirely true but in the case of payment and app store control Apple has every right to make the terms favor them.

The foundation of every decision is profit, and they, like any company, will never favor the user experience— or any other product attribute— over profit.

Have you been shopping lately? The iPhone is the only device that favors the user experience. Tight control and limited flexibility is the hallmark of a user-centric experience. Get it out of your mind that customizing equals better. It didn't, it doesn't, and it won't ever be that way. Options breed confusion and that leads to poor user experiences.

 

[lartola]

Opening up NFC via an API that third-party apps can access in order to be able to do Tap to Pay from their own app is, IMO, sufficient.

But Apple refuses to allow even that, and that’s why the EU wants to force them to allow it. Right now, if you want to tap to pay with an iphone it’s Apple Pay or Apple Pay. If you live in a country where Apple Pay hasn’t officially rolled out or happen to work with a bank that hasn’t jumped on board, you’re screwed and the iphone’s nfc is just an ornament.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I have to side with PayPal on this, it is not really right that Apple added a hardware feature into the phone that only Apple applications can access and use. It is my device, I should have the choice in what tap to pay options that I can use with NFC.

Not really right?

Do you listen to that statement?!

Did PayPal ever support Apple?! No.

PayPal is everywhere but didn’t care to support nor reach out to Apple before ApplePay wallet nor their nfc until long after Apple created their OWN system & success.


I’ll bet you’re not willing to side with other payment systems to be supported on PayPal’s payment system. Hmmm.

 

[DeepIn2U]

But Apple refuses to allow even that, and that’s why the EU wants to force them to allow it. Right now, if you want to tap to pay with an iphone it’s Apple Pay or Apple Pay. If you live in a country where Apple Pay hasn’t officially rolled out or happen to work with a bank that hasn’t jumped on board, you’re screwed and the iphone’s nfc is just an ornament.

In Toronto Go transit has access to update the Presto card. I’ve been using it for almost a year now. Trials begin for using presto app for payments on the terminals but not to pay.

Standard api with nfc access to use via an app. Doesn’t need to be used for payment but in no way does it inconvenience me.

 

[lartola]

In Toronto Go transit has access to update the Presto card. I’ve been using it for almost a year now. Trials begin for using presto app for payments on the terminals but not to pay.

Standard api with nfc access to use via an app. Doesn’t need to be used for payment but in no way does it inconvenience me.

Oh yeah Apple has opened the nfc for other uses, but they refuse to open it for payments.

 

[Spock]

Not really right?

Do you listen to that statement?!

Did PayPal ever support Apple?! No.

PayPal is everywhere but didn’t care to support nor reach out to Apple before ApplePay wallet nor their nfc until long after Apple created their OWN system & success.


I’ll bet you’re not willing to side with other payment systems to be supported on PayPal’s payment system. Hmmm.

I don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Spock]

is your argument that the wallet app is poorly named? Because it's not a real wallet. You can't put anything physically inside of it. I can't fathom the entitlement that you get to decide what payment systems you can use on your phone. You can't install android apps on your phone either. It's up to the developer to make an iOS app, that follows the App Store rules. In the same spirit payment platforms have to make their systems iOS compatible and follow Apple's rules.

Any anger you have at this needs to be directed at the payment platform for not supporting Apple and agreeing to their policy.

And yet software is sold as-is with the argument that you knew what it could do when you purchased it...
Payment is no different than the App Store. if the bank agrees to and follows Apple's rules you get to use their card on the iPhone. Direct your displeasure at the people causing the issue, the banks.

Giving Apple a competitive edge is a good reason. They did all the work and took all the risks. Of course they should get final say over what their reward will be.

Cars already have limited support for drinks. Some let you use coffee mugs, some have drink weight limits. If they wanted to team up with Coke to make it impossible to drive with Pepsi that's their call.

This is a bad example because Spotify already doesn't work.

Which is within their rights.

This isn't entirely true but in the case of payment and app store control Apple has every right to make the terms favor them.

Have you been shopping lately? The iPhone is the only device that favors the user experience. Tight control and limited flexibility is the hallmark of a user-centric experience. Get it out of your mind that customizing equals better. It didn't, it doesn't, and it won't ever be that way. Options breed confusion and that leads to poor user experiences.

Who said I was angry? Apple has purposely locked out a feature of the iPhone that blocks competitors, that’s what I don’t agree with. I would still use ApplePay even if they have the choice, I just think that should allow more choice.

 

[notabadname]

My Garmin watch has “Garmin Pay” but no Apple or PayPal - I guess I should sue Garmin.

 

[4jasontv]

Not seeing your point. So Apple added NFC to iPhone 6 and introduced Apple Pay. Apple can add all the bells and whistles it wants (you realize FaceID is more convenience than security) however they have not allowed any other to use NFC in a similar manner in a 3rd party app.

They haven't allowed other uses of NFC. That's it. End of story. If you want to use NFC it has to be for the uses they approved, and you have to implement it the way they want it done. It's not very complicated.

As for FaceID, I don't know what your point was, but I do know that it's not convenient.

Who said I was angry? Apple has purposely locked out a feature of the iPhone that blocks competitors, that’s what I don’t agree with. I would still use ApplePay even if they have the choice, I just think that should allow more choice.

My point was if you have anger it should be directed at credit card companies that don't support wallet integration. That's the only use customers have been provided for NFC. You can't get upset that you can't use it for other functions because it's not an option. They didn't do anything to prevent competitors from using NFC in their devices. That's where the issue ends. Once a customer purchases an iPhone they have made their choice of what NFC can do.

 

[d686546s]

It's up to the developer to make an iOS app, that follows the App Store rules. In the same spirit payment platforms have to make their systems iOS compatible and follow Apple's rules.

Well, "in the same spirit" any manufacturer has to make a product that is compatible and follows the rules of a particular jurisdiction should they choose to operate there.

Since I genuinely don't see Apple pulling out of the EU anytime soon, there's really no need to discuss this further and Apple should start work on making itself compliant with the EU's legislative and regulatory requirements. I'm glad we've reached a common understanding.

 

[4jasontv]

Well, "in the same spirit" any manufacturer has to make a product that is compatible and follows the rules of a particular jurisdiction should they choose to operate there.

Since I genuinely don't see Apple pulling out of the EU anytime soon, there's really no need to discuss this further and Apple should start work on making itself compliant with the EU's legislative and regulatory requirements. I'm glad we've reached a common understanding.

And we all go deaf to the incoherent noise of the mob.

 

[pratikindia]

If they open up NFC, it will be very helpful in India as Apple Pay is not available here and won’t be available here anytime soon.

 

[ilikewhey]

Why should Apple Pay for R&D to develop hardware/software and let someone use it for free?

really? apple developed NFC from the ground up?

 

[ilikewhey]

At some point why can’t i put a ford software on a GM. Why can’t I put other self driving software on my Tesla.

lol wrong comparison, what you're comparing is putting android on iphone and vice versa, a more likely comparison would be why can't you charge a GM at a tesla supercharger.

 

[d686546s]

And we all go deaf to the incoherent noise of the mob.

So, in a nutshell, when you say people should just accept Apple's rules on their platform, shut up and get on with it it's an argument but when I say Apple will have to accept the rules of the market, shut up and get on with it it's "incoherent noise of the mob?"

Charming.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I had thousands of dollars stolen from me because of Paypal’s relaxed security standard. I haven't used them since.

 

[AdonisSMU]

All the griping about Apple's 30/15% for App store and trying to break open iOS, enforce side loading and bring in alternative payment methods. What about PayPal's 6% commission for all payments?

As a developer who uses PayPal and Apple App Store with Apple in-app payments the PayPal 6% bugs me the most because I get the least for the money I lose.
With the App store I get all the local tax taken care of, I get refunds taken care of and I get credit card fees covered as well as being provided with software to create my apps (Xcode).
With PayPal I get SFA other than losing 6% on a system that looks, works and feels like it is engineered and maintained by Dilbert's Pointy hair boss.

The end user isn't going to get a better deal.
This is nothing other than a cash grab by corporates using legislation as muscle.
Apple doesn't have a monopoly but PayPal effectively does.
EU - legislation for hire at the right price or out of envy/spite.

This is always the case usually. It’s a cash grab from a billion dollar corporation whos not going to return the same consideration to the customer they want from another company. Maybe EU should consider standardizing the fees one can charge while they are at it. I truly dont understand how PayPal cant function in the wallet like other banks and credit cards do now. Why do they need direct access?

 

[AdonisSMU]

The point is companies have to go through Apple Pay instead of directly interfacing with the NFC chip, which means Apple gets a cut no matter what.

It would be similar to if users were only able to take photos using the built-in Camera app.

Apple is providing a service why shouldnt they get a cut either way?