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dschmitty-o

macrumors newbie
Jul 31, 2016
15
44
This makes total since, My wife and I have been married for many years. everything is jointly owned. But all credit cards and loans we ever get go in my name. So if something happens to me, she won't have deal with the debt. But this means that she doesn't have much credit. She got the Apple Card on her own, and her credit line is less than mine. I'm sure there are also cases or the male getting less than the female.

Your setup will not work. Were something to happen to you, all of your assets and debts go into your estate. So your share of the jointly owned assets would have to stand against your debt.

In other words, 50% of everything you jointly own would have to cover your debt. Your wife inherits what's left over.

A better option would be to get a good term life insurance policy to ensure your wife (and kids, if you have them) are taken care of. And even better -- stay out of debt. #LiveLikeNoOneElse

Sorry to take the thread off on a tangent, but this is too important not to get right.
 

jonblatho

macrumors 68030
Jan 20, 2014
2,509
6,194
Oklahoma
The options here aren’t mutually exclusive:
  • Credit reporting may be more rooted in bias than reality, even over factors that one can’t control
  • The specifics of individuals’ credit histories, even and perhaps especially in a marriage, may result in one spouse receiving a significantly lower credit limit
They can...both be true. Chances are that both are true. Don’t get why so many seem to be making this an either–or thing.
 
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TheIntruder

macrumors 68000
Jul 2, 2008
1,701
1,195
Nothing to see here, 99% of these are automated decisions made by a computer without any kind of gender code in them. People are just looking for attention and Wozniak is trying to become relevant again.

I get that Woz is Apple co-founder, was a technical wiz with the ][ and all that, but he's long morphed into the crazy old uncle who you can't take seriously half the time.

Some of these comments are very... predictable.

Please, offer your thoughts.

I'll offer mine, having been in the lending industry.

The most illuminating thing about the reaction to this story is how little people know about how credit, and the lending industry works.

That's not helped by the writer here quoting Woz, and conflating assets with credit worthiness as it pertains to credit cards, and perpetuating that falsehood.

Lenders use a variety of criteria to determine a borrower's credit worthiness.

Income is one criteria, as are assets, as well as others like employment history.

For a revolving, unsecured line of credit like a credit card, one's credit score plays a large role, as does your stated income. Assets do not.

What most people do not comprehend is that your credit score does not take into account your gender, your assets, or your income. It is strictly a measure of one's responsible use of credit, based on your record of timely payments, how much of your credit you utilize, and other factors like defaults and bankruptcies.

I'll say it again -- your credit score has nothing to do with your income, or your assets. Do not conflate them.

Your credit score is primarily an individual score. It pertains to other individuals only when you jointly receive a line of credit with some one else, such as if you both are signatory to a mortgage, co-sign an account. That line is reported to both individual's reports.

Your credit reports are a history of all your reported credit lines and loans. How much you can borrow. How much you owe. When your last payment was. Whether you've been late. That is its scope.

Not how much you make. Not how many kids you have. Not whether you do or don't claim a gender.

Unsecured, revolving lines of credit like credit cards are usually underwritten mainly by one's credit scores, and stated income. Stated income meaning that the lender who issues the card does not independently verify that you actually make the amount your put down on the application. They are required by law to ask for that information, but your are not obligated to provide it. But if you volunteer to, it must be truthful, by law.

When talking about a secured line of credit, like a mortgage, or auto loan, the lender takes a much deeper dive.

In those cases, your assets, debts, bank accounts, investment accounts, and other factors like employment history are part of the underwriting criteria, in addition to your verified income and credit score.

But that's not what this is about.

So, unlike what I've read elsewhere, the comments here thus far have been very…good.

The Feds take discrimination in the lending industry seriously. Those who work in the industry must receive training about it, and other topics like anti money laundering laws on an annual basis.

If DHH believes his spouse has been unfairly discriminated against, his best avenue is to purse it with the authorities, not through Twitter.

Edit: spelling and grammar galore.
 
Last edited:

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,640
22,144
Singapore
I get that Woz is Apple co-founder, was a technical wiz with the ][ and all that, but he's long morphed into the crazy old uncle who you can't take seriously half the time.



Please, offer your thoughts.

I'll offer mine, having been in the lending industry.

The most illuminating thing about the reaction to this story is how little people know about how credit, and the lending industry works.

That's not helped by the writer here quoting Woz, and conflating assets with credit worthiness as it pertains to credit cards.

Lenders use a variety of criteria to determine a borrower's credit worthiness.

Income is one criteria, as are assets, as well as others like employment history.

For a revolving, unsecured line of credit like a credit card, one's credit score plays a large role, as does your stated income. Assets do not.

What most people do not comprehend is that your credit score does not take into account your gender, your assets, or your income. It is strictly a measure of one's responsible use of credit, based on your record of timely payments, how much of your credit you utilize, and other factors like defaults and bankruptcies.

I'll say it again -- your credit score has nothing to do with your income, or your assets. Do not conflate them.

Your credit score is primarily an individual score. It pertains to other individuals only when you jointly receive a line of credit with some one else, such as if you both are signatory to a mortgage, co-sign an account. That line is reported to both individual's reports.

Your credit reports are a history of all your reported credit lines and loans. How much you can borrow. How much you owe. When your last payment was. Whether you've been late. That is its scope.

Not how much you make. Not how many kids your have. Not whether you do or don't claim a gender.

Unsecured, revolving lines of credit like credit cards are usually underwritten mainly by one's credit scores, and stated income. Stated income meaning that the lender who issues the card does not independently verify that you actually make the amount your put down on the application. They are required by law to ask for that information, but your are not obligated to provide it. But if you volunteer to, if must be truthful, by law.

When talking about a secured line of credit, like a mortgage, or auto loan, the lender takes a much deeper dive.

In those cases, your assets, debts, bank accounts, investment accounts, and other factors like employment history are part of the underwriting criteria, along with your verified income and credit score.

But that's not what this is about.

So, unlike what I've read elsewhere, the comments here thus far have been very…good.

The Feds take discrimination in the lending industry seriously. Those who work in the industry must receive training about it, and other topics like against money laundering laws on an annual basis.

If DHH believes his spouse has been unfairly discriminated against, his best avenue is to purse it with the authorities, not through Twitter.

I think it helps that the news has been out for a couple of days, so the people have had a cooling-off period to reflect and properly form their own opinions on this matter. The end result is that the responses are less of a knee-jerk reaction and more well-thought-out and reasoned. Compared to Reddit at any rate.
 

himanshumodi

macrumors 6502a
May 18, 2012
643
881
India
There are too many factors to consider as to why this happened, so it’s too soon to pull the gender card, unless of course GS is guilty of it.

Are they both working? How much income and debt do they both have? Both been paying bills on time, and how high are the balances?

Often times the wife opts to have the husband open the accounts because he has a deeper credit history and a better chance of getting the credit due to some of the factors above.

If she typically doesn’t have her name on most of the finances then it would make sense that she gets a lower limit. And this can go both ways for the couple as well.

Or maybe they just have a VVIP list of all the geek founders. If you are on that list, they get 10x credit of other normal people.
 

fairuz

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2017
2,486
2,589
Silicon Valley
And tell people how to scam the system?

Nothing to see here, 99% of these are automated decisions made by a computer without any kind of gender code in them. People are just looking for attention and Wozniak is trying to become relevant again.
It's not that simple if it's an ML system. Even if gender isn't an input to the system, the name or something else gender-suggesting might be. I don't see why gender would matter even to a system like that, but I'm just saying it's hard to prove.

I wonder what the difference is between Steve Woz's application and his wife's.
 

todundsteuern

macrumors newbie
Oct 20, 2019
15
8
If you are in any way familiar with how DHH behaves on Twitter, you won't be surprised that he threw a fit about this.

I have no idea how credit lines in the US work (I wasn't born there, haven't lived or worked there), but it seems to me that Goldman Sachs decided DHH earns a lot of money and is able to pay off any incurred debt, hence the large credit limit.

It would be more interesting if DHH came out and say how much taxable income both his wife and himself reported.

Anyways, I highly doubt it has anything to do with gender, more with banks targeting high-income individuals to earn interest off credit card debt.
 

TheIntruder

macrumors 68000
Jul 2, 2008
1,701
1,195
If you are in any way familiar with how DHH behaves on Twitter, you won't be surprised that he threw a fit about this.

I have no idea how credit lines in the US work (I wasn't born there, haven't lived or worked there), but it seems to me that Goldman Sachs decided DHH earns a lot of money and is able to pay off any incurred debt, hence the large credit limit.

It would be more interesting if DHH came out and say how much taxable income both his wife and himself reported.

Anyways, I highly doubt it has anything to do with gender, more with banks targeting high-income individuals to earn interest off credit card debt.

DHH's hobby is auto racing, specifically, sports car racing in the WEC as a gentleman driver.

Racing isn't cheap, and those seats don't come cheap, so I doubt he's hurting for money.

That's most of what I knew of him, and I can't say I care to learn much more.
 

Coconut Bean

macrumors 6502
Jul 21, 2011
400
380
I get that Woz is Apple co-founder, was a technical wiz with the ][ and all that, but he's long morphed into the crazy old uncle who you can't take seriously half the time.



Please, offer your thoughts.

I'll offer mine, having been in the lending industry.

The most illuminating thing about the reaction to this story is how little people know about how credit, and the lending industry works.

That's not helped by the writer here quoting Woz, and conflating assets with credit worthiness as it pertains to credit cards, and perpetuating that falsehood.

Lenders use a variety of criteria to determine a borrower's credit worthiness.

Income is one criteria, as are assets, as well as others like employment history.

For a revolving, unsecured line of credit like a credit card, one's credit score plays a large role, as does your stated income. Assets do not.

What most people do not comprehend is that your credit score does not take into account your gender, your assets, or your income. It is strictly a measure of one's responsible use of credit, based on your record of timely payments, how much of your credit you utilize, and other factors like defaults and bankruptcies.

I'll say it again -- your credit score has nothing to do with your income, or your assets. Do not conflate them.

Your credit score is primarily an individual score. It pertains to other individuals only when you jointly receive a line of credit with some one else, such as if you both are signatory to a mortgage, co-sign an account. That line is reported to both individual's reports.

Your credit reports are a history of all your reported credit lines and loans. How much you can borrow. How much you owe. When your last payment was. Whether you've been late. That is its scope.

Not how much you make. Not how many kids you have. Not whether you do or don't claim a gender.

Unsecured, revolving lines of credit like credit cards are usually underwritten mainly by one's credit scores, and stated income. Stated income meaning that the lender who issues the card does not independently verify that you actually make the amount your put down on the application. They are required by law to ask for that information, but your are not obligated to provide it. But if you volunteer to, it must be truthful, by law.

When talking about a secured line of credit, like a mortgage, or auto loan, the lender takes a much deeper dive.

In those cases, your assets, debts, bank accounts, investment accounts, and other factors like employment history are part of the underwriting criteria, in addition to your verified income and credit score.

But that's not what this is about.

So, unlike what I've read elsewhere, the comments here thus far have been very…good.

The Feds take discrimination in the lending industry seriously. Those who work in the industry must receive training about it, and other topics like anti money laundering laws on an annual basis.

If DHH believes his spouse has been unfairly discriminated against, his best avenue is to purse it with the authorities, not through Twitter.

Edit: spelling and grammar galore.

Good post. Only one thing to add.

Banks know your gender and could build a model that accounts for that. And it likely has some predictive power to it.

I have seen two different kinds of models, "scoring" where parameters will give scores and you end up in a bucket based on the sum of your score and non-linear rule-based, where small perturbations can lead to big differences.

Not saying GS is taking gender into account, just saying they could.
 

konqerror

macrumors 68020
Dec 31, 2013
2,298
3,700
Think about this...majority of credit cards you can add an additional cardholder (spouse, kids, etc) and they don't run their credit...

Exactly. I saw this coming a mile away when they said they weren't going to have authorized user cards. Somebody is going to get outraged that women can't get the Apple Card because it's not uncommon that all the credit history was put in the husband's name, and the outrage is going to be 10x normal because it's Apple and they make a point of social justice. And it happened exactly as predicted.
[automerge]1573459099[/automerge]
FICO records, you may prefer to not disclose however you may have at some point in your adult life that you may have forgotten.

Credit bureaus never provide gender, nor do they use it as a lookup on credit reports particularly to avoid issues with lending fairness laws. They're keyed to Name, DOB and SSN, particularly since the latter of which acts as a unique identifier.
 
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Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Isn't this one of those things which were accepted long also when people signed up with a traditional credit card ?

Every credit user is treated differently based on their history . What's this problem with Apple card, when the goal is still the same... *expect* for the fact Apple boasts "even with bad credit you can still get one"

Of course we know Apple would say just about anything just to get more customers too. But since this led to confusion. perhaps Apple should be more cautious in the future before mentioning it.
 
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konqerror

macrumors 68020
Dec 31, 2013
2,298
3,700
*expect* for the fact Apple boasts "even with bad credit you can still get one"

Lots of loans, including credit cards, are available for people with not as good credit. Capital One, Barclays, and a company Bank of America bought are major players in this area. GS/Apple is doing nothing new.
 

mngdew

macrumors regular
Dec 12, 2015
228
219
California
So we now have credit cards for males and females? I guess we will see a gender-neutral credit card, and California will be the first state to require it by law.
 
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C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,458
So we now have credit cards for males and females?
Doesn't seem like we do.
[automerge]1573460101[/automerge]
Isn't this one of those things which were accepted long also when people signed up with a traditional credit card ?

Every credit user is treated differently based on their history . What's this problem with Apple card, when the goal is still the same... *expect* for the fact Apple boasts "even with bad credit you can still get one"

Of course we know Apple would say just about anything just to get more customers too. But since this led to confusion. perhaps Apple should be more cautious in the future before mentioning it.
Seems like in this case people got the card, and it's the credit limits on the card that are being discussed.
 

dz5b609

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2019
656
1,706
So where's the proof that it's because of gender? I just see two people in seemingly the same situation that get a different credit. Which probably happens thousands of times every day. Which is because of literally hundreds of reasons, gender not being one of them since that's forbidden by the constitution (and I doubt Goldman Sachs is stupid enough to risk a hundreds of billions dollar settlement to save a few bucks).

The only reason this is news is because they happen to be man and wife, but she's more than just his wife which is apparently hard to believe for this guy he just sees a female version of him with no real own life. Who should get the same credit because they're according to him one entity. Sounds healthy.
 
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C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,458
So where's the proof that it's because of gender? I just see two people in seemingly the same situation that get a different credit. Which probably happens thousands of times every day. Which is because of literally hundreds of reasons, gender not being one of them since that's forbidden by the constitution (and I doubt Goldman Sachs is stupid enough to risk a hundreds of billions dollar settlement to save a few bucks).

The only reason this is news is because they happen to be man and wife, but she's more than just his wife which is apparently hard to believe for this guy he just sees a female version of him with no real own life. Who should get the same credit because they're according to him one entity. Sounds healthy.
It sounds like the assumption might have been that both spouses have the same credit history, usage, etc., including the same assets and liabilities, as well as overall household income.
 

PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
Good post. Only one thing to add.

Banks know your gender and could build a model that accounts for that. And it likely has some predictive power to it.

I have seen two different kinds of models, "scoring" where parameters will give scores and you end up in a bucket based on the sum of your score and non-linear rule-based, where small perturbations can lead to big differences.

Not saying GS is taking gender into account, just saying they could.
Credit reports don’t have gender info and FICO doesn’t use it in their scoring models. That info is available in other databases, but there’s no evidence Goldman utilizes anything other than TransUnion credit info and FICO, and self-reported info, in their automated underwriting process.

Manual underwriting would be much more likely to result in gender or other biases.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
It sounds like the assumption might have been that both spouses have the same credit history, usage, etc., including the same assets and liabilities, as well as overall household income.
It would make totally sense to me not to factor in overall household income, but the income of that person.
 

PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
Credit is issued based on your debt to income ratio and your total debt to available balance ratio; that's why they always pull your report and ask for your income, rather than just looking at your credit score. Your credit rating factors in, but those two ratios are the primary determining factors. My wife has a better credit score than I do, but because I'm the primary breadwinner, I'm always given higher credit limits because of my debt to income ratio.

Net worth, community property, being married for years, etc... those have nothing to do with it.

And yes, I'm in the industry and have been for 18 years.
Most apps ask for household income, in which case you can each use the combined income of both partners.
 
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