Often enough what’s asked for on applications is household income, which would basically be the same for spouses (unless they themselves separate things and would decide to provide and use that separate information).
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Regulators Looking Into Claims of Gender Discrimination in Apple Card Credit Decisions, Goldman Sachs Responds
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Was Rosie O'Donnell approved for the Apple Card? What's next? A fake headline about people with fatter fingers being denied?
Microsoft's Windows Card, has very strong criteria. No coughing at orchestra concerts, and each applicant must demonstrate the ability to parallel park.
Microsoft's Windows Card, has very strong criteria. No coughing at orchestra concerts, and each applicant must demonstrate the ability to parallel park.
And not only that, but also partners having different partners behind your back, happens all the time.
You just try and program an efficient algorithm for every gender there is. I'll wait.
I did see where the guy pulled his and his wife’s credit scores, but unless he got the TransUnion FICO 9 version, which is the scoring model Goldman is using, they wouldn’t be particularly meaningful, and should be disregarded.
As you mention, there are other important factors in determining initial credit limits besides credit score, particularly stated income and debt to (stated) income ratio.
Also, even if two people have the same income and exactly the same credit score—i.e. same degree of creditworthiness/risk of default—there can be a huge difference in the credit line an automated underwriting system may offer.
Some other factors which might be considered by the automated decisioning algorithm include: size of existing limits (sometimes a lender will match your highest limit); whether existing revolving credit accounts are individual or authorized user; and any other info that may or may not already be reflected in the FICO score, such as recents lates, number of cards with balances, presence of a public record (judgment, lien, bankruptcy, etc.) and presence of a collection account.
I‘m pretty sure that being new to the game, Goldman is using a canned decisioning package such as FICO’s Capstone Decision Management system. No need to re-invent the wheel.
P.S. Also thrown into the mix: there has been an ongoing glitch (since the invite period) where Goldman has been incorrectly assigning a default $1,000 credit limit to some applicants, and in some cases interest rates were set higher than they should have been. I’ve heard anecdotal reports of cardholders being contacted by GS and had their credit limits drastically increased and their interest rates dropped to the lowest tier.
And automated decisions are made by systems trained with decisions originally made by humans. It's well known that automated systems reflect the biases of the people that originally trained them.
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I don't consider a phrase like "complaints that those decisions appear in some cases to have been made in a discriminatory manner on the basis of gender" as throwing a tantrum. It's rather the reading of such a phrase as 'throwing a tantrum' that seems to be the overreaction.
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I feel dumber for having read DHH’s Twitter thread. No, not all of it; his rant goes on for days. But enough of it to get the general tone.
People respond to him with explanations more plausible than blatant sex discrimination; DHH quotes them and responds, essentially, with “Oh look, a man doesn’t believe Goldman Sachs is openly sexist! You must be sexist too! I suppose a wife shouldn’t even get a credit card with her husband’s permission!”
If Goldman really was sexist, it’s be DHH with the lower credit limit; he’s such a drama queen.
People respond to him with explanations more plausible than blatant sex discrimination; DHH quotes them and responds, essentially, with “Oh look, a man doesn’t believe Goldman Sachs is openly sexist! You must be sexist too! I suppose a wife shouldn’t even get a credit card with her husband’s permission!”
If Goldman really was sexist, it’s be DHH with the lower credit limit; he’s such a drama queen.
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For car insurance? Because men drive more than women and thus get in more accidents than women.
For health insurance? Women pay more because they go to the doctor more often and quite a few of them have babies, which are expensive. ACA mandated that they not discriminate though (by discriminating against men making them pay more than they would otherwise, I guess)
For life insurance? Men pay more because they die earlier than women do.
Insurance is a bit of a scam anyway, too many people lining their pockets along the chain.
except it's not Apple here...
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It is the same with Amex for me and my wife. And we share the same bank account.
So from my understanding, I am supposed to believe that this is apparently not an issue with any other bank? That everyone is happy with the credit limit they got from them?
Yet a tweet from some guy (albeit a very rich and influential one) on social media is enough to get law enforcement to investigate the matter? It doesn’t even seem like he has filed a formal complaint with the respective authorities.
How is this even a thing again?
Yet a tweet from some guy (albeit a very rich and influential one) on social media is enough to get law enforcement to investigate the matter? It doesn’t even seem like he has filed a formal complaint with the respective authorities.
How is this even a thing again?
Apple has very little to do with this...
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sadly true...
An algorithm they’ve never seen and aren’t privy to. Despite your appeal to authority, I see no reason to believe either of them have any real insight here.
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Jointly held assets are not the same as an income. Or a credit score for that matter.
This non-story seems like modern-era stupidity. People in this thread are already contorting themselves into blaming...you guessed it...Apple. I guarantee “Timmy” is next.
DHH might be good at programming no idea. But he sucks at finance. He even talks of purchasing trans union to see his score because he’s probably oblivious to it. Nothing wrong with that.
As a cpa I deal with many successful individuals that know squat about finance. That’s why they hire people to do it for them.
But no answer was good enough for him. He’s profane. He’s actually dealing with customer service all over the place as if these grunt employees have any clue. Nope he took to Twitter where he knew he could get attention. Another social justice warrior armed with nothing.
Wow. So many social justice warriors. Yes. The algorithm is sexists. It has to be. Credit decisions is a risk. Why is my life insurance so much more than my wife’s when we re both equally healthy, same cholesterol, blood pressure, age and other biometrics? Is the life insurance business sexist? Yes it is. It is based on facts and it turns out men don’t live as long as women. Maybe it is based on facts that women have a higher credit risk based on metrics and other epidemiological evidence. Don’t get so triggered.
Auto insurance? Because they have a higher incidence (and probably higher claim amounts) than women at a given age. More accidents and higher payouts equals higher premiums.
Life insurance? Because they’re more likely at any given age to die than are women during the policy period. The insurance company is more likely to have to payout on a male vs. a female.
That's my understanding anyway.
It is of course uncool that there is such a difference and the process is so opaque, but I don't quite like this "guilty until proven innocent" approach.
Actually AFAIK this is illegal e.g. in the EU for some kind of life insurances. This means gender is not to be considered among risk factors and in fact men get a lower premium compared to their "actual" risk. Women get a higher premium compared to their risk, basically subsidizing the men's higher risk.
This is what happens when decisions are driven by political correctness instead of reality.
you realize that it’s like when those doctors go on TV to “diagnose” some VIP without even having met him/her, right?
The fact that they are great at their job doesn’t mean that they have some sort of universal conscience of the work and the inner mechanisms of other people’s work. Unless they have experience in financial algorithms and unless they have seen what they are criticizing their opinion is as valuable as mine.