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jeanlain

macrumors 68020
Mar 14, 2009
2,430
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Apple didn't say M1 Max can beat 3080 in games.
It didn't say much at all. Apple showed some graph and let us figure out where how they got the results.

But if the M1 Max is indeed twice slower than a mobile 3070 here, I'd say that this game is underperforming. Even SoTR, which has been pointed out for its disappointing performance on Apple Silicon (it was ported before the M1 was a thing), seems a better port than this one. At least performance is closer to the PC version on equivalent hardware.

In fact, I'm not sure why people are amazed by the resident evil port. Other comparisons put it way behind the PC version in terms of performance. This is not unexpected given that Capcom don't have much experience in Mac games.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,126
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It didn't say much at all. Apple showed some graph and let us figure out where how they got the results.

But if the M1 Max is indeed twice slower than a mobile 3070 here, I'd say that this game is underperforming. Even SoTR, which has been pointed out for its disappointing performance on Apple Silicon (it was ported before the M1 was a thing), seems a better port than this one. At least performance is closer to the PC version on equivalent hardware.

In fact, I'm not sure why people are amazed by the resident evil port. Other comparisons put it way behind the PC version in terms of performance. This is not unexpected given that Capcom don't have much experience in Mac games.
Is the port poor? Performance seems fine for the power draw, no?
 

jeanlain

macrumors 68020
Mar 14, 2009
2,430
933
Is the port poor? Performance seems fine for the power draw, no?
That doesn't indicate the quality of the port per se, but the power requirements of the engine. The quality of the port is evaluated by comparing the Mac version with other versions on similar hardware. In this instance, the Mac version appears quite a bit slower than the PC version. I believe that Baldur's gate 3 and WoW give performance numbers that are closer to those obtained from PC laptops that Apple used in their tests. Same goes for native benchmarks like GFXBench, 3DMark Wildlife and BaseMark GPU.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,398
845
Hmmm, that's bad. Apple advertised that M1 Max = 12900HK + mobile RTX 3080 performance. And yet the performance difference is twice slower than PC laptop which is not even mobile 3080.

I have to say, Mac gaming still sucks even with the native porting.

Please present the link to the chart from the Apple advertising that you believe made clear claims about M1 being equal to the 12900HK + mobile RTX 3080!

I’ll wait.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,707
1,576
Please present the link to the chart from the Apple advertising that you believe made clear claims about M1 being equal to the 12900HK + mobile RTX 3080!

I’ll wait.
Didnt you watch M1 Max announcement from last year? It was obvious.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,707
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Apple didn't say M1 Max can beat 3080 in games. You can measure performance in different ways and apps. If the number of fps is everything for you and you always need 130 fps then yeah, Mac gaming sucks. If not you should keep watching the video when he talks about "the problem with pc gaming". Sounds like you missed that part. You seem to be forgetting important factors like power consumption, efficiency, battery time, temperature and noise level.

For me 60-70 fps at 1440p and high settings in a single-player FPS is perfectly fine. I wouldn't want a laptop that manages 130 fps but runs much hotter (25 degrees C more), much louder with the fans at full blast, draws 220W (3x M1 Max) and must be connected to a power outlet to get max performance and not to drain its battery fast, things that were mentioned in the video too.
Doesn't really justify poor performance. PC can achieve way better performance with lower price. Power consumption is not a concern as people only care about the performance. If you gonna argue that performance by watt matters, tell that to professionals and gamers.
 

Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
2,112
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Doesn't really justify poor performance. PC can achieve way better performance with lower price. Power consumption is not a concern as people only care about the performance. If you gonna argue that performance by watt matters, tell that to professionals and gamers.

This subject has been discussed for ages and you have yourself started many threads and posted many comments about Macs ”sucking” at different things so once again we’re going in circles.

Again you ignore the whole picture and focus on some details to justify ”Mac gaming still sucks”. Yes the performance is worse than some pc laptops but it’s not poor for sure for that type of game and hardware.

You may think whatever you want about Macs and I’m not here to tell you what’s best for you. At the same time your opinions are not facts, just opinions. For you Mac gaming sucks if you don’t get 130 fps in RE Village but as I said for many others 60-70 fps is perfectly fine. I rather try to focus on the game and enjoy it than watching the fps counter.

Of course the reasons I mentioned justify the ”poor” performance. It’s simple logic. A 70W CPU/GPU can not perform as good as a 220W one. Where’s the logic in expecting it to do so? And with three times higher power usage comes other things as heat, fan noise and battery drain. So if you’re fine with that go buy the pc and enjoy your 130 fps. I’ll buy the Mac. It doesn’t mean ”Mac gaming sucks”, it means Apple and Mac users have other priorities than 130 fps in RE Village.

If Apple put a 3070 TI in MBP you could get a better gaming Mac too but you would also get all the disadvantages mentioned above and MBP would be 1 cm thicker just like the pc. All these details justify the difference in performance.

Yes, pc can perform better with lower prices but the discussion was not about what’s the best gaming laptop. It is about the difference in performance, the reasons behind it and benefits and disadvantages of it.

Power consumption is not a concern and people only care about performance? Again just your personal opinion that doesn’t apply to many other people and their usage, including myself. We’re talking about laptops where battery life, fan noise, heat and portability are as important factors as performance, if not more important. People who only care about performance usually buy desktop gaming pcs.

Why would I argue with professionals and gamers about their choice of laptops? They buy whatever that suits their needs. Again if battery life, fan noise, heat and portability is not a concern buy the most power hungry laptop you can find and enjoy your trillions fps in games. Mac gaming may suck for you but works very well for us with other priorities.
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
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This subject has been discussed for ages and you have yourself started many threads and posted many comments about Macs ”sucking” at different things so once again we’re going in circles.
And it's finally very clear that Mac still sucks even with a native AAA game. Did you ever check the performance with RTX 30 series?
Again you ignore the whole picture and focus on some details to justify ”Mac gaming still sucks”. Yes the performance is worse than some pc laptops but it’s not poor for sure for that type of game and hardware.
I guess you dont even use PC at all. That's really poor. They are now releasing RTX 40 series with 5nm just like Apple.
You may think whatever you want about Macs and I’m not here to tell you what’s best for you. At the same time your opinions are not facts, just opinions. For you Mac gaming sucks if you don’t get 130 fps in RE Village but as I said for many others 60-70 fps is perfectly fine. I rather try to focus on the game and enjoy it than watching the fps counter.
Test results are FACTs. Do you really wanna argue about that? laptop RTX 3060 is way more powerful than M1 Max in gaming. RTX 3060 is not even a high end GPU.
Of course the reasons I mentioned justify the ”poor” performance. It’s simple logic. A 70W CPU/GPU can not perform as good as a 220W one. Where’s the logic in expecting it to do so? And with three times higher power usage comes other things as heat, fan noise and battery drain. So if you’re fine with that go buy the pc and enjoy your 130 fps. I’ll buy the Mac. It doesn’t mean ”Mac gaming sucks”, it means Apple and Mac users have other priorities than 130 fps in RE Village.
Poor is poor, that's all. If M1 Max cant use more than 60W for GPU, then that's Apple's problem by not allowing them to use more power to increase the performance or overclocking or that's their limitation by limiting so much on the power consumption.
If Apple put a 3070 TI in MBP you could get a better gaming Mac too but you would also get all the disadvantages mentioned above and MBP would be 1 cm thicker just like the pc. All these details justify the difference in performance.

Yes, pc can perform better with lower prices but the discussion was not about what’s the best gaming laptop. It is about the difference in performance, the reasons behind it and benefits and disadvantages of it.
Apple advertised and compared with a high end mobile GPU which is quite closer to M1 Max and yet it never did.
Power consumption is not a concern and people only care about performance? Again just your personal opinion that doesn’t apply to many other people and their usage, including myself. We’re talking about laptops where battery life, fan noise, heat and portability are as important factors as performance, if not more important. People who only care about performance usually buy desktop gaming pcs.
"Your personal opinion that doesn't apply to many other people". That's clearly for Mac user's perspective as they know nothing about gaming industry. Take a look at the market share of PC games. Mac is not even close to 2%. If the power consumption doesn't matter, stick with M1 Max which is not powerful than mobile RTX 3060 for gaming. "Performance by watt matters", that's a big fish in a small pond theory. Yes, it works well with creative uses, but not gaming.
Why would I argue with professionals and gamers about their choice of laptops? They buy whatever that suits their needs. Again if battery life, fan noise, heat and portability is not a concern buy the most power hungry laptop you can find and enjoy your trillions fps in games. Mac gaming may suck for you but works very well for us with other priorities.
Again, tell that to them such as subreddit, last time I checked from them, they already mocking on Mac users playing games with poor performance while PC can achieve way more performance with less price. What you are doing is spiritual victory over PC. Performance by Watt advantage is what PC users are joking on Mac users for gaming and I've seen it so many times on different communities. It's just a joke after all when Apple Silicon cant even perform similar or better than RTX 30 series.



This is very clear, Mac still sucks for gaming and they should just focus on something else such as 3D, video, photo, design, illustrate, and more. Mac is for creative and production uses so I wouldn't expect so much on gaming anymore.

RTX 30 series are not even 5nm based and yet they perform way better than M1 series and the native game still perform poorer than PC so at this point, I highly doubt it.

As people dont know anything about gaming, I would just ignore this thread for greater good. It's not even worth my time arguing that Mac is good for gaming. I've been arguing about this for a long and I'm totally right after all.
 
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Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
2,112
1,962
Sweden
And it's finally very clear that Mac still sucks even with a native AAA game. Did you ever check the performance with RTX 30 series?

I guess you dont even use PC at all. That's really poor. They are now releasing RTX 40 series with 5nm just like Apple.

Test results are FACTs. Do you really wanna argue about that? laptop RTX 3060 is way more powerful than M1 Max in gaming. RTX 3060 is not even a high end GPU.

Poor is poor, that's all. If M1 Max cant use more than 60W for GPU, then that's Apple's problem by not allowing them to use more power to increase the performance or overclocking or that's their limitation by limiting so much on the power consumption.

Apple advertised and compared with a high end mobile GPU which is quite closer to M1 Max and yet it never did.

"Your personal opinion that doesn't apply to many other people". That's clearly for Mac user's perspective as they know nothing about gaming industry. Take a look at the market share of PC games. Mac is not even close to 2%. If the power consumption doesn't matter, stick with M1 Max which is not powerful than mobile RTX 3060 for gaming. "Performance by watt matters", that's a big fish in a small pond theory. Yes, it works well with creative uses, but not gaming.

Again, tell that to them such as subreddit, last time I checked from them, they already mocking on Mac users playing games with poor performance while PC can achieve way more performance with less price. What you are doing is spiritual victory over PC. Performance by Watt advantage is what PC users are joking on Mac users for gaming and I've seen it so many times on different communities. It's just a joke after all when Apple Silicon cant even perform similar or better than RTX 30 series.



This is very clear, Mac still sucks for gaming and they should just focus on something else such as 3D, video, photo, design, illustrate, and more. Mac is for creative and production uses so I wouldn't expect so much on gaming anymore.

RTX 30 series are not even 5nm based and yet they perform way better than M1 series and the native game still perform poorer than PC so at this point, I highly doubt it.

As people dont know anything about gaming, I would just ignore this thread for greater good. It's not even worth my time arguing that Mac is good for gaming. I've been arguing about this for a long and I'm totally right after all.

Again, your arguments didn't add any useful information and didn't even adress many of my main reasons. It's a bunch of random answers irrelevant to the core of the discussion and biased emotional opinions with the purpose of provoking. The pattern is clearly recognizable from your previous discussions. Have a nice day!
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,707
1,576
Again, your arguments didn't add any useful information and didn't even adress many of my main reasons. It's a bunch of random answers irrelevant to the core of the discussion and biased emotional opinions with the purpose of provoking. The pattern is clearly recognizable from your previous discussions. Have a nice day!
And you are ignoring actual FACTS. M1 Max is not even close to RTX 3070M and yet all you are saying is that Mac is great for gaming. Beside, RTX 30 series are not even 5nm based. RTX 40 series are. Performance by watt argument is already a joke for gaming as they cant even compare. Stop dreaming.
 

Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
2,112
1,962
Sweden
It didn't say much at all. Apple showed some graph and let us figure out where how they got the results.

But if the M1 Max is indeed twice slower than a mobile 3070 here, I'd say that this game is underperforming. Even SoTR, which has been pointed out for its disappointing performance on Apple Silicon (it was ported before the M1 was a thing), seems a better port than this one. At least performance is closer to the PC version on equivalent hardware.

In fact, I'm not sure why people are amazed by the resident evil port. Other comparisons put it way behind the PC version in terms of performance. This is not unexpected given that Capcom don't have much experience in Mac games.

I agree the port appears to be a bit buggy and underperforming but people mostly compare the performance between the two games on Mac and RE Village performs better (higher fps) on the same Mac than Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Here are some numbers from Notebookcheck:

Tomb Raider 1080p Ultra

- M1 Max 32c 87.5
- 3070 Ti mobile 124
- 3080 mobile 116

RE Village 1080p Prioritize Graphics

- M1 Max 32c 110 (from Created Tech)
- 3070 Ti mobile 169
- 3080 mobile 163
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,126
2,450
OBX
That doesn't indicate the quality of the port per se, but the power requirements of the engine. The quality of the port is evaluated by comparing the Mac version with other versions on similar hardware. In this instance, the Mac version appears quite a bit slower than the PC version. I believe that Baldur's gate 3 and WoW give performance numbers that are closer to those obtained from PC laptops that Apple used in their tests. Same goes for native benchmarks like GFXBench, 3DMark Wildlife and BaseMark GPU.
Strictly based on compute, isn’t the M1 Max basically the same as the laptop 3060?
 

jeanlain

macrumors 68020
Mar 14, 2009
2,430
933
Strictly based on compute, isn’t the M1 Max basically the same as the laptop 3060?
I don't know. All I know is that it is supposed to be about as fast as a 3080 mobile. This is the official word from Apple.
Anyway, the post above shows that RE Village underperforms compared to the PC version. SoTR is closer to the PC version, so it is a better port, even though it is not native.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,126
2,450
OBX
I don't know. All I know is that it is supposed to be about as fast as a 3080 mobile. This is the official word from Apple.
Anyway, the post above shows that RE Village underperforms compared to the PC version. SoTR is closer to the PC version, so it is a better port, even though it is not native.
Which is weird, I thought SoTR was more compute heavy, which implies Apple Silicon GPU's are punching above their weight. Maybe it is more raster heavy, where TBDR is advantaged?


Or maybe RE Engine really isn't designed with TBDR in mind and is forcing AS to act like a traditional GPU?
 

Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
2,112
1,962
Sweden
Which is weird, I thought SoTR was more compute heavy, which implies Apple Silicon GPU's are punching above their weight. Maybe it is more raster heavy, where TBDR is advantaged?


Or maybe RE Engine really isn't designed with TBDR in mind and is forcing AS to act like a traditional GPU?

M1 Max is in many ways superior to the mobile 3060 so as you say it’s a matter of optimization. Here is a comparison.

Memory
M1 Max 512-bit, 409 GB/s
3060 M 192-bit, 336 GB/s

Execution/Shading units
M1 Max 4096
3060 M 3840

TMUs/Texture units
M1 Max 256
3060 M 120

ROPs/render output units/raster operations pipelines
M1 Max 128
3060 M 48

Pixel rate
M1 Max 164 GPixels/s
3060 M 68.4 GPixels/s

Texture rate
M1 Max 327 GTexels/s
3060 M 171 GTexels/s

FP32
M1 Max 10.4 TFLOPS
3060 M 10.94 TFLOPS
 

Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
2,112
1,962
Sweden
That doesn't indicate the quality of the port per se, but the power requirements of the engine. The quality of the port is evaluated by comparing the Mac version with other versions on similar hardware. In this instance, the Mac version appears quite a bit slower than the PC version. I believe that Baldur's gate 3 and WoW give performance numbers that are closer to those obtained from PC laptops that Apple used in their tests. Same goes for native benchmarks like GFXBench, 3DMark Wildlife and BaseMark GPU.

Speaking of Baldur's gate 3 here is an old video where M1 Max performs 10-50% better than mobile 140W 3070:

 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,398
845
Didnt you watch M1 Max announcement from last year? It was obvious.

So, you’re unable to provide any link to any evidence at all?!

I wouldn’t trust my own personal recollection or what specifically the slides Apple showed that day. Why would you trust your own personal recollection?
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,126
2,450
OBX
Speaking of Baldur's gate 3 here is an old video where M1 Max performs 10-50% better than mobile 140W 3070:

They used DX11 instead of Vulkan (which is the default renderer and what Larian recommends using) which is the slower of the three API's.
 

Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
2,112
1,962
Sweden
They used DX11 instead of Vulkan (which is the default renderer and what Larian recommends using) which is the slower of the three API's.

That doesn't seem to be right. Larian says they generally recommend Vulkan but "The Vulkan implementation of Baldur’s Gate 3 is still in Early Access. We are actively working on performance improvements and stability, but it should not be used to measure overall performance at this stage."

I found several comparisons where DX11 is as fast or faster than Vulkan (by 10-15 fps), not slower. In BG3 Vulkan seems to be the slowest API.



 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Jun 11, 2021
1,707
1,576
So, you’re unable to provide any link to any evidence at all?!

I wouldn’t trust my own personal recollection or what specifically the slides Apple showed that day. Why would you trust your own personal recollection?
Believe what you want to believe as you dont wanna discuss anything.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,126
2,450
OBX
That doesn't seem to be right. Larian says they generally recommend Vulkan but "The Vulkan implementation of Baldur’s Gate 3 is still in Early Access. We are actively working on performance improvements and stability, but it should not be used to measure overall performance at this stage."

I found several comparisons where DX11 is as fast or faster than Vulkan (by 10-15 fps), not slower. In BG3 Vulkan seems to be the slowest API.



Ah, I haven't played in a while (not a fan of the patches having you start over). Last time I played on my PC I didn't really notice a difference in speed between the two API's (it was over the spring/summer) but that could also have been a fluke.
 
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Homy

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2006
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Ah, I haven't played in a while (not a fan of the patches having you start over). Last time I played on my PC I didn't really notice a difference in speed between the two API's (it was over the spring/summer) but that could also have been a fluke.

I didn't find any comparisons with the latest patches so I don't know if things have changed. The videos show patch 4 and the latest patch is 9.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,398
845
For those who might know: have we gotten the first person mode patch in Resident Evil Village? My Google fu is failing me.
 

salamanderjuice

macrumors 6502a
Feb 28, 2020
507
547
The third person mode patch? The game was always first person. Release notes for v 1.1.0 of the Mac version lists third person mode.
 
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