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SandboxGeneral

Moderator emeritus
Sep 8, 2010
26,482
10,051
Detroit
True, if I wanted to buy used that is. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But I do enjoy leasing these days since I don't need to worry about anything really.

I always buy/lease Ford/Lincoln because get the A/Z plan for a very nice discount.

I guess I'll have to wait and see if the Continental will still be around next year or not.

I'm not really against the crossover SUV's, but to me, my opinion, of course, is that those don't scream luxury like an old school Lincoln or Cadillac sedan used to. When I think about those two brands and luxury, I think of sedans, large ones, like big boats and huge comfortable seats.

I've been watching plenty of video reviews of the new Lincoln Corsair and Aviator and they seem really, really nice. Though the Aviator seems to be suffering from some major electronics problems which are a shame. From everything I've seen, it's a real winner otherwise.

The Corsair seems to be the best winner of the bunch and it's more my size anyway. The Aviator and the Navigator are far too large for my needs.

So, I am considering the Corsair as well as the Continental for my next vehicle.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
There’s still plenty of a Demographic for sedans, it’s just manufacturers are pushing the trend of crossovers/electric moving forward.

Except that's not the case for domestic sedans. It's a consumer driven market, if there was demand, manufacturers would provide the product (not the other way around).

Leaving EVs out of it for a moment, domestics manufacturers are selling trucks/SUVs, and few sedans, they're not pushing the product, they're focusing on the product that's in demand - that's consumer economics 101. The buyers who are in the sedan market segment are going to Japanese makes in the lower-mid-market, and BMW and also Japanese (and to a lesser degree other Germans, Audi, Merc) in the mid-upper market.

This is the MKZ sales for the last 10 years:

1580597745687.png


This is the Camry in the last decade:

1580597728291.png


The last 10 years of total MKZ sales are less than any one year of Camry sales.


The Ford Taurus is about double the MKZ:

1580598190795.png


... but still dwarfed by the Camry.

In 2015, in the US, Toyota sold ~429,000 Camry's, Lincoln sold 30K MKZs, Ford sold 39K Taurus (a quick review, it would appear total BMW sedans - 3/5/7 series in the US - are roughly 180K for 2015). Clearly, there's is little-to-no market for US, Domestic Sedans, so the "Big 3" are responding by dropping them as a product.

That doesn't in any way mean cars like the MKZ aren't a terrific product, it just means the consumer market has shifted (and the "old school" domestic brands have had a hell of a time attracting younger buyers to replace the older demographic turnover).
 

serpico007

macrumors 6502
Sep 18, 2017
303
320
I'm going to the local Tesla Days event to test drive all the models this weekend. Never drove one before. The Model 3 has become the Honda in my area. Every where I go I see it. The S and X are becoming rare to see.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
Oh my stars :D Got my Steeda H-pipe installed, hahaha wow. So with the Active Exhaust I have 4 levels of loudness, Quiet, Normal, Sport, Track - Quiet also can be tied into a "quite start" mode either as always, or at a specified timeframe which is pretty cool (like 6a-9a). So this removes the resonator, which is like a "pre-muffler", and replaces it with straight (SS) pipe, with a pipe that connects the two sections, like an H ;)

It sounds just amazing, and the best thing is it works with the AE system so quiet is still very quiet, like 5-10% louder, Normal is a bit louder 30%[?] Closer to the old Sport, and that is now delicious, deep, gurgling - and Track, well, it's more or less a straight pipe back from the cats, so you probably get the idea.

I was coming home from the C&C on Saturday (wow, what a turnout, must've been 500 cars), I had a couple of times I passed, and when I backed off, the burble, pop, sounds as the car downshifted hard (in Sport+ mode) was insanely fun. Fun aerial shot from Deremer, they generally do the C&C photos/videos:


1581521012223.png


(I'm the dummy not parked, lurking down the row ... :p )


My new ride.

Jeep looks good, and I realize this _totally_ off topic, but I love the plants to the right along the fence line (we're doing a new fence/deck/yard and I've been noting some plants for additional privacy).
 

Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,545
26,659
The Misty Mountains
Oh my stars :D Got my Steeda H-pipe installed, hahaha wow. So with the Active Exhaust I have 4 levels of loudness, Quiet, Normal, Sport, Track - Quiet also can be tied into a "quite start" mode either as always, or at a specified timeframe which is pretty cool (like 6a-9a). So this removes the resonator, which is like a "pre-muffler", and replaces it with straight (SS) pipe, with a pipe that connects the two sections, like an H ;)

It sounds just amazing, and the best thing is it works with the AE system so quiet is still very quiet, like 5-10% louder, Normal is a bit louder 30%[?] Closer to the old Sport, and that is now delicious, deep, gurgling - and Track, well, it's more or less a straight pipe back from the cats, so you probably get the idea.

I was coming home from the C&C on Saturday (wow, what a turnout, must've been 500 cars), I had a couple of times I passed, and when I backed off, the burble, pop, sounds as the car downshifted hard (in Sport+ mode) was insanely fun. Fun aerial shot from Deremer, they generally do the C&C photos/videos:


View attachment 893764

(I'm the dummy not parked, lurking down the row ... :p )




Jeep looks good, and I realize this _totally_ off topic, but I love the plants to the right along the fence line (we're doing a new fence/deck/yard and I've been noting some plants for additional privacy).
Noisy cars annoy me, I’m talking about when they make a racket during normal driving, at the stop light next to you, which seems to be more about, look at me! And I’d think the driver would get a headache. ;) So it’s good you can adjust yours. I assume you have a switch to adjust on the fly?

I remember watching Bullitt and his 390GT 2+2 had a nice little burble to it with normal driving, which is illustrated in the lead up to the big chase, until he opened it up, making it roar. The Dodge Charger roared too. :D
 
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D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
Noisy cars annoy me, I’m talking about when they make a racket during normal driving, at the stop light next to you, which seems to be more about, look at me! And I’d think the driver would get a headache. ;) So it’s good you can adjust yours. I assume you have a switch to adjust on the fly?

I remember watching Bullitt and his 390GT 2+2 had a nice little burble to it with normal driving, which is illustrated in the lead up to the big chase, until he opened it up, making it scream. The Dodge Charger screamed too. :D


Idling it's quiet in any mode, maybe a little more burbling in Track, and in Normal (adn mostly Sport), you can easily control the sound level with the right pedal :) Normal, light throttle, sub 4K driving around town, it's still pretty quiet - in Sport at close to 8000 RPM at wide open throttle? Yeah, you can hear it (*snicker*)

Wow, you would not have liked this C&C, it was kind of a loud one, muscle cars, screaming exotics, bikes, thumping sound systems, hahaha, just so many vehicles, doing so many different things ... it was wild!

Oh yeah, you can change all the mods on the fly while rolling: steering, exhaust, suspension, shifting/shift control, it's pretty fun with the full digital dash, since the different drive modes actually change the display layout / emphasis, and it's all animated.
 

Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,545
26,659
The Misty Mountains
Idling it's quiet in any mode, maybe a little more burbling in Track, and in Normal (adn mostly Sport), you can easily control the sound level with the right pedal :) Normal, light throttle, sub 4K driving around town, it's still pretty quiet - in Sport at close to 8000 RPM at wide open throttle? Yeah, you can hear it (*snicker*)

Wow, you would not have liked this C&C, it was kind of a loud one, muscle cars, screaming exotics, bikes, thumping sound systems, hahaha, just so many vehicles, doing so many different things ... it was wild!

Oh yeah, you can change all the mods on the fly while rolling: steering, exhaust, suspension, shifting/shift control, it's pretty fun with the full digital dash, since the different drive modes actually change the display layout / emphasis, and it's all animated.
Even when it screamed, Bullitt’s mustang sounded swweeeeeettttt! It is the epitome of power, and how I imagine a muscle car should sound. That and my T-28. ;)
 
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bobsamm

Suspended
Oct 6, 2019
1,017
636
Jeep looks good, and I realize this _totally_ off topic, but I love the plants to the right along the fence line (we're doing a new fence/deck/yard and I've been noting some plants for additional privacy).

They are called tiger grass here in Australia, unfortunately where they were either side of our driveway they were just too much maintenance to keep under control, they go mad over summer in rain/himidity, really need to be in a space where they can be just left and no need to prune, we ripped them out and planted Fan Palms there.
We still have 2 in our back yard that are easier to maintain.
 
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D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
They are called tiger grass here in Australia, unfortunately where they were either side of our driveway they were just too much maintenance to keep under control, they go mad over summer in rain/himidity, really need to be in a space where they can be just left and no need to prune, we ripped them out and planted Fan Palms there.
We still have 2 in our back yard that are easier to maintain.

Oh, neat, and I realized after-the-fact, that you've got a .AU front tag (duh ...) and I said "right", when from my perspective viewing the photo, they're on the left, hahaha, but thanks for the info.
 
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44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,491
Corvette C8 Update:

**Warning – Extremely long post ahead** (No.... There is no TLDR available for this one....)


So this is didn’t exactly end well, (or at least the way I thought it would). I called my dealership to inquire about the delivery projections for the C8 [I was short on time, As I prefer to talk in person v.s. on the phone.]

Anyways I talked to a sales associate who I sort of know. I quickly mention about my deposit/application and what would I possibly be looking at for a projection date. The associate quickly interrupts me and says “I don’t know, I don’t know what to tell you.” (I sensed he was frustrated, as he probably receives calls like this all day long, probably every day, so I get it.)

I basically asked the associate, how is that possible you don’t know anything, when it seems others are receiving confirmed delivery dates who were behind me in the ordering que. And then the associate replied back by saying something along the lines of if I had specific special ordering, that might be pushing out my delivery further. (Which I had one special option I elected for the seatbelt trim, literally, that was it.)

Anyways, fast forward, I brought up to the associate how there’s ‘localized community discussion’ that this very dealership is kind of showing some favoritism in terms of other buyers that are moving up in the order list with money being thrown under the table to gain an earlier delivery date.[ I also addressed how I only have one month to retrieve my deposit, otherwise it’s nonrefundable past a certain date If I want to back out.]

So the associate starts laughing at me on the phone and says there’s ‘no one handing money to anyone’, and “You’ll get your order when we call you” (His response was snide and cocky]. So I ask him to explain how is it that others are being bumped in the process of receiving earlier dates versus myself. At that point, the Sales associate challenged me to prove that others were being moved up in the process over me.

So, in kind, I responded to his challenge and printed off the Community discussion table about the C8 delivery and advised I was going to forward this to the GM of the dealership to find out what kind of ‘dirty work’ is being involved in the ordering with this specific dealership, and I wouldn’t stop until I get a clear answer as to how other buyers are moving ahead of me with the ordering.

So I end my phone call, and about 45 minutes later, I get a call from the GM of the dealership asking me what my concern was. I explained everything about the discussion I had with XYZ associate. I also asked if the GM read the contents of the local discussion about how this specific dealership seems to be creating their ‘own rules’ on the ordering for the C8. He responded by saying that this was ‘inaccurate or ‘they’ would never do that’, etc. I went on further Basically that I’m not the only one that believes this, but I’m also the only one that seems to be speaking up about it. And I mentioned that I Would escalate to contact the owner (who owns like 13 of dealerships) to get to the bottom of this and file complaint with GM directly to look into this.

At that point, the Manager basically became very shaky in his voice and almost to the point where his whole candor changed to me on the phone. He then said he would look further into why my order and why their was no movement, and why others were advancing. He also offered to extend my deposit by an extra month if I was willing to wait.(And he offered to refund the application fee in addition if I wanted to cancel my deposit.)

So I kept pushing, and I basically was trying to be as professional and objective as possible by saying I really wanted A more concise answer on this versus just trying to buffer the situation, or push me off all together.

Fast forward again.....

I get a call back from the owner of the dealership explaining that GM is the one being very unclear with their orders, special ordering changes the dynamic of how/when you would receive your order and depending on the geographic/city you live in, [certain GM dealerships are more well-established to receive their ordering first.]

Alogether, I didn’t really point the finger at dealership, because I can’t prove everything versus only what I know, but I definitely believe I poked some holes in this situation. I was also offered that I could transfer my order to another GM dealership, in hopes of being bumped in the process for an earlier ship date, but there was no guarantee either.

Out of frustration, I decided to accept the cancellation and the application fee was refunded, being they still couldn’t provide me a clear answer of what to expect, even though I’m ahead of probably 10 other buyers who somehow have confirmations of their ordering status.

That all said, there’s no doubt there’s some ‘inside work’ going on at this particular dealership how things are being operated, and now that there’s some exposure on this situation, I hope others don’t have to go through with what I/and others did

So since I’m impatient and I refuse to wait any longer on a confirmation date, I think I just will scrap the idea of the C8 together, (as I also mentioned I really didn’t want two V8 ‘s anyways.) I just think there’s some shady practices at dealerships, and this was something new to me that I’ve never experienced, but has been discussion for months with other buyers refusing to take initiative On being taken advantage of.

***********************

In place of the C8, I am looking at a 2018 F150 Raptor (Ruby Red), with the 2020 Ford explorer ST (Rapid red) and 2019 Taurus SHO (Ruby red) being the other two options.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,486
53,314
Behind the Lens, UK
Corvette C8 Update:

**Warning – Extremely long post ahead** (No.... There is no TLDR available for this one....)


So this is didn’t exactly end well, (or at least the way I thought it would). I called my dealership to inquire about the delivery projections for the C8 [I was short on time, As I prefer to talk in person v.s. on the phone.]

Anyways I talked to a sales associate who I sort of know. I quickly mention about my deposit/application and what would I possibly be looking at for a projection date. The associate quickly interrupts me and says “I don’t know, I don’t know what to tell you.” (I sensed he was frustrated, as he probably receives calls like this all day long, probably every day, so I get it.)

I basically asked the associate, how is that possible you don’t know anything, when it seems others are receiving confirmed delivery dates who were behind me in the ordering que. And then the associate replied back by saying something along the lines of if I had specific special ordering, that might be pushing out my delivery further. (Which I had one special option I elected for the seatbelt trim, literally, that was it.)

Anyways, fast forward, I brought up to the associate how there’s ‘localized community discussion’ that this very dealership is kind of showing some favoritism in terms of other buyers that are moving up in the order list with money being thrown under the table to gain an earlier delivery date.[ I also addressed how I only have one month to retrieve my deposit, otherwise it’s nonrefundable past a certain date If I want to back out.]

So the associate starts laughing at me on the phone and says there’s ‘no one handing money to anyone’, and “You’ll get your order when we call you” (His response was snide and cocky]. So I ask him to explain how is it that others are being bumped in the process of receiving earlier dates versus myself. At that point, the Sales associate challenged me to prove that others were being moved up in the process over me.

So, in kind, I responded to his challenge and printed off the Community discussion table about the C8 delivery and advised I was going to forward this to the GM of the dealership to find out what kind of ‘dirty work’ is being involved in the ordering with this specific dealership, and I wouldn’t stop until I get a clear answer as to how other buyers are moving ahead of me with the ordering.

So I end my phone call, and about 45 minutes later, I get a call from the GM of the dealership asking me what my concern was. I explained everything about the discussion I had with XYZ associate. I also asked if the GM read the contents of the local discussion about how this specific dealership seems to be creating their ‘own rules’ on the ordering for the C8. He responded by saying that this was ‘inaccurate or ‘they’ would never do that’, etc. I went on further Basically that I’m not the only one that believes this, but I’m also the only one that seems to be speaking up about it. And I mentioned that I Would escalate to contact the owner (who owns like 13 of dealerships) to get to the bottom of this and file complaint with GM directly to look into this.

At that point, the Manager basically became very shaky in his voice and almost to the point where his whole candor changed to me on the phone. He then said he would look further into why my order and why their was no movement, and why others were advancing. He also offered to extend my deposit by an extra month if I was willing to wait.(And he offered to refund the application fee in addition if I wanted to cancel my deposit.)

So I kept pushing, and I basically was trying to be as professional and objective as possible by saying I really wanted A more concise answer on this versus just trying to buffer the situation, or push me off all together.

Fast forward again.....

I get a call back from the owner of the dealership explaining that GM is the one being very unclear with their orders, special ordering changes the dynamic of how/when you would receive your order and depending on the geographic/city you live in, [certain GM dealerships are more well-established to receive their ordering first.]

Alogether, I didn’t really point the finger at dealership, because I can’t prove everything versus only what I know, but I definitely believe I poked some holes in this situation. I was also offered that I could transfer my order to another GM dealership, in hopes of being bumped in the process for an earlier ship date, but there was no guarantee either.

Out of frustration, I decided to accept the cancellation and the application fee was refunded, being they still couldn’t provide me a clear answer of what to expect, even though I’m ahead of probably 10 other buyers who somehow have confirmations of their ordering status.

That all said, there’s no doubt there’s some ‘inside work’ going on at this particular dealership how things are being operated, and now that there’s some exposure on this situation, I hope others don’t have to go through with what I/and others did

So since I’m impatient and I refuse to wait any longer on a confirmation date, I think I just will scrap the idea of the C8 together, (as I also mentioned I really didn’t want two V8 ‘s anyways.) I just think there’s some shady practices at dealerships, and this was something new to me that I’ve never experienced, but has been discussion for months with other buyers refusing to take initiative On being taken advantage of.

***********************

In place of the C8, I am looking at a 2018 F150 Raptor (Ruby Red), with the 2020 Ford explorer ST (Rapid red) and 2019 Taurus SHO (Ruby red) being the other two options.
I think at the point the guy laughed at you I’d have been demanding a refund. Sorry to hear about this shambolic customer service. There really is no excuse.

Good luck with your next order!
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,491
I think at the point the guy laughed at you I’d have been demanding a refund. Sorry to hear about this shambolic customer service. There really is no excuse.

Good luck with your next order!

Thanks for your support. Sometimes I think with these larger dealerships, there’s a lot of arrogance and rudeness. It’s unfortunate, because I generally was really excited for this car, but I also don’t feel that dealership deserves my business, so I’ll look elsewhere.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
I think at the point the guy laughed at you I’d have been demanding a refund. Sorry to hear about this shambolic customer service. There really is no excuse.

Plenty of C8s to be had, dozens of allocations, it's an easy car to order and get proper tracking/build status through the process, not sure what happened, sounds like mis-assumptions/miscommunication on both sides.
 

Glideslope

macrumors 604
Dec 7, 2007
7,995
5,447
The Adirondacks.
Noisy cars annoy me, I’m talking about when they make a racket during normal driving, at the stop light next to you, which seems to be more about, look at me! And I’d think the driver would get a headache. ;) So it’s good you can adjust yours. I assume you have a switch to adjust on the fly?

I remember watching Bullitt and his 390GT 2+2 had a nice little burble to it with normal driving, which is illustrated in the lead up to the big chase, until he opened it up, making it scream. The Dodge Charger screamed too. :D

Did you watch it sell last week at Mecum Auction’s for $3.75 million?

It still had the same “burble” you describe. The 390 had a unique sound.
[automerge]1581609922[/automerge]
Even when it screamed, Bullitt’s mustang sounded swweeeeeettttt! It is the epitome of power, and how I imagine a muscle car should sound. That and my T-28. ;)

Yup, I remember the R-1820 days. Was a R-1300 with an H-Pipe. ?
 
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44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,491
Perfect day for a demo drive. -22°😁

4ADD5818-91B8-45A8-B04D-4F367562CA56.jpeg


Quick overview:

It’s quick With the 3.0 TT, but it’s not as fast as I thought it would be, even in Sport mode. [I think that’s partially due to the weight of the Explorer.] But from dead stop, that’s where it’s most surprising how agile/fast it is ‘off the line’.

The ‘iPad’ center stack display that they’re using is ok, it basically controls 90% of the functionality of the vehicle in terms of convenience/media, etc. I do think it partially kind of hinders your vision a little bit the way it sticks above the dash.

Some of interior materials that Ford is using in a $62,000 Explorer seems kind of dated, it’s the same materials they been using probably for the past six years in their lineup, it doesn’t take away from the aesthetics, but it also shows they don’t change too much in terms of the interior to give it more ‘life’.

altogether, I like it, I think it would be perfect for a year-round vehicle in the state that I live in with the harsh winter environment, but I think I want the power band to be a little bit higher than this ST is offering, I think the weight of the Explorer is holding it back somewhat.

Still a significant contender in my choice moving forward.
 

Suture

macrumors 65816
Feb 22, 2007
1,002
212
We just picked up a 2020 Explorer, replacing a 2017 GMC Acadia Denali. The drive is much better with the RWD bias, and the extra room is a nice bonus. I like the steering. The ten-speed transmission seems okay so far.

Still not really a fan of their infotainment, but we use CarPlay all the time. One of the motors for the third row seating already killed itself somehow. I think it was only the second time we used it in the two weeks we've had it, and now it's stuck at a fixed angle, so we'll have to get that looked at. The cross traffic alert is a little sensitive. We've had it go off twice when parking, but there were no cars.

Still, we like it so far. I liked the Acadia, and I am pretty picky about SUVs since I prefer sportier cars.
 
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