This seems to be a good option for those who need it: https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-UCA202-BEHRINGER-U-CONTROL/dp/B000KW2YEI
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Toslink Optical Audio Gone in 2018?
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Hi-end audio is relative however higher resolution encoding and hi-quality signal transfer is an improvement across the board - which means eliminating the Mini internal DAC is the best way to improve sound quality - this entails buying a good DAC which will have all the desired outputs one could ask for - and of course there's a whole house full of people who'll debate DACs with you and their tonal qualities - it's endless but good to know you can step things up quite a bit with a moderately priced DAC such as the retired Emotiva DC1 or DACMagic Plus or Schiit BitFrost and you can go retro HiFi with add-on preamps that have built-in DACs like Parasound - all in all, the world is still yours!
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Not true at all ... add a DAC and you can have RCA, RCA-Balanced, XLS, XLS-Balanced, COAX, HDMI and Toslink simply depends on the format of DAC and who makes it. The DAC will connect via USB and disengage the internal DAC while negating the Mini port setbacks.
... and for those not interested in plugging into larger systems they make headphone DACs that are portable for those who carry about full-sized, full-spectrum hi-quality headphones.
After you purchase the DAC head on over to the Audio Midi Setup in Utilities and make sure you're capturing 2-chan - 24-Bit @ 48K then take trip to the iTunes preferences and make sure your "import" encoding settings are 320kbs ... this produces the cleanest sound I've been able to achieve with the Mini.
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Not true at all ... add a DAC and you can have RCA, RCA-Balanced, XLS, XLS-Balanced, COAX, HDMI and Toslink simply depends on the format of DAC and who makes it. The DAC will connect via USB and disengage the internal DAC while negating the Mini port setbacks.
... and for those not interested in plugging into larger systems they make headphone DACs that are portable for those who carry about full-sized, full-spectrum hi-quality headphones.
After you purchase the DAC head on over to the Audio Midi Setup in Utilities and make sure you're capturing 2-chan - 24-Bit @ 48K then take trip to the iTunes preferences and make sure your "import" encoding settings are 320kbs ... this produces the cleanest sound I've been able to achieve with the Mini.
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I just want to add that anyone purchasing a DAC should be actively considering one that uses USB-C/TB 3.
There are a lot of interfaces on the market that are USB 2.0. This is manufacturers, including some major names, offloading old designs that are soon going to be obsolete. To take one example... RME is a major player, but its BabyFace Pro, which uses USB 2.0, is about a decade old as a design and they are still flogging it as their premiere two channel interface. Just Say No.
You seem to be referring to the pro market. I haven't really heard of audiophile DACs that use USB-C/TB3.
If you do a search, you'll find that USB-C DACS that are purely for listening are indeed coming onto the market.
Most likely overkill on the sampling side of things and since the DAC is doing all the leg-work the output-side is of things results in negligible audible gain for USB-C/TB3 unless I'm missing something it would only offer ease of connectivity.
Toslink however allows for multi-channel output 5:1 so I see the need - however the need is eclipsed with an HDMI connection available.
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I was a NY'er all my life until 9-years ago ... figures someone from the Big Apple would think they could actually "hear" the difference ... perhaps 9-years ago I might have detected 15,000 Hz from 20,000 Hz but then again, certainly not after Paradise Garage!
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You are assuming that all the interface is doing is managing the audio signal. A USB-C audio interface, because it can draw more power, can offer features that a USB 2.0 interface can't. This is fundamental to Sound Devices's new MixPre line of interfaces. It's true that these are not pure listening interfaces (see the merged post below), but I won't be surprised if manufacturers of the latter also come up with new features that require more power than USB 2.0 supplies. In any event, ease of connectivity, aka not messing around with adapters, is useful in itself.
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I must be missing something. I wasn't talking about what one can hear or not hear. I was acknowledging @Duncan68 's distinction between what he calls "pro" interfaces, by which I assume he means interfaces that include such things as a recording function (the RME BabyFace Pro is an example), and what he calls "audiophile" interfaces that are just used to listen to music.
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"Pro" as in music production but also appropriate for music reproduction - so it could easily be mistaken but summarized to indicate someone who has the need for options that extend beyond the average Consumer - there really is too much emphasis on the term "Pro" because someone who can turn garbage into gold is also a "Pro" in terms of the end-result.
The knowledge and technology is bleeding across all applications where the essential magic resides in a chip with an appropriate interface i.e, the DAC (interface) equally serves the "recording" function for music reproduction and the preamp sorts out the processing, equalization and connectivity - different sides of the same church.
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I think that the important point is that USB-C ports, whether USB 3.1 or TB 3, open up the possibility of interfaces that have features that require more power than are offered by USB 2.0 ports.
I'm not a fan of Pro, Prosumer, Consumer, Audiophile terminology, but I think that @Duncan68 's meaning was clear enough. At the moment, it is reasonable to distinguish between interfaces that can be used to record sound and those that can't. As you know, in some cases the latter cost a lot more than the former, and interfaces with a recording function are used by a lot of "amateurs" ; hence the problem with designations like Pro, etc.
I think that the interesting question at the moment is what USB 3.1 and TB3 mean for function. We are already seeing benefits for interfaces that have a recording function; and for all I know, because I don't follow the "audiophile" world closely enough, we are, or will soon be, seeing benefits on the output side as well.
To be honest, I haven't thought through whether my MixPre can do things on output, in addition to input, that couldn't be done with a USB 2.0 device. My gut feeling, just because of the sophistication of the menus, and of the mixing functions in particular, is that the answer is probably "Yes".
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Obviously there's more going on driving music production I tend to doubt it will have the same impact for music reproduction other than hosting the hookup between PC/Mac and other gear in the chain.
I think that I added the last paragraph to my post after you wrote this. Maybe read the addition and think about what it means.
This is probably not the best place to get into a technical discussion about mixing via a computer application (the RME approach) and mixing in the capture unit itself (historically, the Sound Devices approach), but I will say this. I have never seen an interface powered by USB 2.0 that gives the degree of control over mixing that the MixPre does. That includes Sound Devices's own USBPre2, which I also own.
The ability to mix directly in an interface potentially has interesting reproduction ramifications. Indeed, there are musician-specific versions of the MixPre series that are about controlling music reproduction, including live music, from within the unit. The MixPre can be used to essentially operate as a digital audio workstation for key functions.
That said, I'm now over my head technically. I'm curious to know what the Sound Devices engineers would say; I'm not competent to do more than raise a question about how much the MixPre's output features depend on having more power than USB 2.0 provides.
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I am a big fan of hearing music with a good headphone setup. So much, that my quest for finding a clean audio source led me to my 1st Mac purchase in 2011, a Mac Mini.
Before I had bought the Mini, I had tried various USB powered DACS and struggled to get consistent sound quality with my PC and laptop (pops and clicks). The 2011 Mac Mini had Optical Out and was considered a very clean source with low jitter. I paired it with a Schiit Bifrost DAC and after trying their USB and Optical implementation, I ended up going the Optical route as it sounded better to me. I believe even the talented folks over at Schiit now acknowledge that most USB implementations back in those days were not upto the mark (including their own)
Fast forward to 2018, I knew that Apple was possibly going to drop the Optical out and I will have to find a solution.
There were a few options:
1) HDMI Audio Splitter
2) USB to Toslink
3) Airport Express
4) USB DAC
I tried a few USB to Toslink converters, and although it was far better than the Onboard DAC of the mini, I could still hear the difference (deterioration) while listening lossless audio on my headphones. This was possibly introduced by the USB to optical conversion. The following product had pretty good output (but not good enough for my liking)
https://hifimediy.com/sabre-dac-uae23
Didn’t try the HDMI splitter option.
I considered getting the latest Schiit Bifrost DAC which has apparently solved most USB challenges, but ended up getting an Airport Express (now discontinued)
Airport Expess still has Optical Toslink Out. I can now play music via AirPlay to the Express, which then connects to my headphone DAC/Amp setup as before. As an added bonus, I can now also stream music from my Phone as well.
So while the loss of Optical Out from the Mac Mini was a minor annoyance, I think that the use case is quite small. And with the maturity that USB DACS have reached, and specially with multi channel support via HDMI or USB to Toslink converters, there are a lot of solutions to get clean audio output from the Mini.
Before I had bought the Mini, I had tried various USB powered DACS and struggled to get consistent sound quality with my PC and laptop (pops and clicks). The 2011 Mac Mini had Optical Out and was considered a very clean source with low jitter. I paired it with a Schiit Bifrost DAC and after trying their USB and Optical implementation, I ended up going the Optical route as it sounded better to me. I believe even the talented folks over at Schiit now acknowledge that most USB implementations back in those days were not upto the mark (including their own)
Fast forward to 2018, I knew that Apple was possibly going to drop the Optical out and I will have to find a solution.
There were a few options:
1) HDMI Audio Splitter
2) USB to Toslink
3) Airport Express
4) USB DAC
I tried a few USB to Toslink converters, and although it was far better than the Onboard DAC of the mini, I could still hear the difference (deterioration) while listening lossless audio on my headphones. This was possibly introduced by the USB to optical conversion. The following product had pretty good output (but not good enough for my liking)
https://hifimediy.com/sabre-dac-uae23
Didn’t try the HDMI splitter option.
I considered getting the latest Schiit Bifrost DAC which has apparently solved most USB challenges, but ended up getting an Airport Express (now discontinued)
Airport Expess still has Optical Toslink Out. I can now play music via AirPlay to the Express, which then connects to my headphone DAC/Amp setup as before. As an added bonus, I can now also stream music from my Phone as well.
So while the loss of Optical Out from the Mac Mini was a minor annoyance, I think that the use case is quite small. And with the maturity that USB DACS have reached, and specially with multi channel support via HDMI or USB to Toslink converters, there are a lot of solutions to get clean audio output from the Mini.
Good points there. Schitt audio is very good. I too have some high end DACs that don't need optical sources, such as my PS Audio Perfectwave DAC Mk2. My only Schitt Audio DAC is the low end MODI 24/96 USB DAC, but the PSA DAC is phenomenal (and cost $4K).
I love several of my CEntrance DACs such as the MiniDAC, DACport and DACport HD, HiFi-M8 and BlueDAC, all outstanding.
The CEntrance portable BlueDAC rivals the sound quality of DAC's costing 3-4x its price, and can work via USB with Macs, and with an iPhone via USB and camera connection kit, with Android USB out, or via BT with upsampling and re-clocking to eliminate jitter (32/384 and DSD). https://darko.audio/2017/11/bluetooth-monday-with-centrances-portable-bluedac/ The wireless sound quality rivals the wired sound quality of many other small DACs, but it doesn't have optical output like their HiFi-M8.
The HiFi-M8 was/is a fantastic portable DAC that can take input from the iPhone digital lightning port and convert it to optical out or analog headphone out (balanced and single ended), and the headphone out is clean enough to use as a pre-amp to drive a full size amp. It can also drive most full size headphones. It also works with USB input from a PC or Android as well.
I have several older Nuforce DAC's (portable micro-dac aka uDAC, and the D100 full size, and transportable HDP and Icon for desktop) that are fairly good for the price, but they were eaten up by Optima. The uDACs work via USB input and output both analog and coaxial digital S/PDIF output - with a 24/96 DAC built-in for analog out, while throwing in a decent headphone output in the deal.
The Audioengine DACs are also good sounding for the price, with a noticeable bump from the D1 to the D3, although The D1 can take optical inputs while powered by any USB, or can use USB for data.
The Audioengine D2 wireless DAC is miraculous, and has an optical output that is significantly better in low jitter than the Airport Express, in side by side A-B comparisons. Not all optical out are equal. It also can take optical or USB input for audio. The Airport Express optical out jitter may be almost as bad as the 1st Gen ATV, while the Audioengine D2 wireless optical out is indistinguishable from many wired DACs and sounds as good as the optical output of my 4 yr old MacBook Pro (it uses a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi peer to peer network, and you can have one transmitter paired with several receivers).
One of my best portable DACs is the HiFiMan R2R 2000, which is a USB-C DAC with a desktop class DAC balanced chip about the size of a pack of cigarettes, but also has an upsampling and oversampling BT DAC that accepts AAC BT or SHDC protocol, with single ended and balanced analog outputs. A bonus is that it can read music from a microSD card and eliminate the need for a computer or phone as transport. Even the BT AAC sound quality is outstanding - I don't know how they do it. https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/dac/hifiman-r2r2000-hd-streaming-audio-device-dac/
For a minute there, I thought I was on Head-Fi. 
Nah ... just begging to point out how Apple has been poised many times to be stellar at unifying many technologies and serving a very diverse audience but somehow where the octane and persistence is needed Apple opts for it's own profit as only they envision it.
Safe to say this lapse creates a new kind of "Pro" who is adept at shoehorning their own needs between the leaves of progress - it will cost more but it also broadens the experience and forces new applications, ideas or workarounds.
Recently, much of the "gain" I've experienced has been prompted by the things Apple has removed! It's ironic really... ever since the demise of the G5 I've decreased my footprint, reduced electrical cost and cable clutter - I've also revisited my workstation and my applications and more realistically applied my money where it counts in everyday use. Since I've added a DAC due to Apple's increasing limitations I've attained better sonic quality while reducing the "noise floor - I'm better actually ... until I'm not and forced to make another move and thus another re-evaluation. This is the game apparently.
Safe to say this lapse creates a new kind of "Pro" who is adept at shoehorning their own needs between the leaves of progress - it will cost more but it also broadens the experience and forces new applications, ideas or workarounds.
Recently, much of the "gain" I've experienced has been prompted by the things Apple has removed! It's ironic really... ever since the demise of the G5 I've decreased my footprint, reduced electrical cost and cable clutter - I've also revisited my workstation and my applications and more realistically applied my money where it counts in everyday use. Since I've added a DAC due to Apple's increasing limitations I've attained better sonic quality while reducing the "noise floor - I'm better actually ... until I'm not and forced to make another move and thus another re-evaluation. This is the game apparently.
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For a minute there, I thought I was on Head-Fi.
Yeah, I have like 50 reviews over at Head-Fi under this user name
I disagree, respectfully. I know you can use third-party solutions for optical audio, but some of us buy Minis for the small foot print because we have tons of other electronics we are using on our desks. I don't see a colorable argument why Apple removed TOSLINK but kept 3.5 in the device. I shouldn't have to deal with dongle clutter, compatibility, etc. to get simple functionality on a desktop level device. Hence, I do believe it was penny pinching, even if there are bulkier "solutions" out there.
It isn’t just Apple. This is a matter of dropping a carrier that is obsolete.
I’m reminded of discussions about dropping internal CD and floppy disk drives.
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These are exactly the kind of posts my wallet has been successfully avoiding all these years
It’s a lot of useful information, thanks for sharing I don’t believe comparing it to CD or Floppy drives is a fair comparison. The 3.5 mm port is still there on the 2018 Mini. Had apple completely removed the port, then it would have been a different conversation. So I agree with @palebluedot here, it’s hard to fathom why Apple would keep the 3.5mm port but remove the digital out from the Mini.
I think that its days are numbered. Once BlueTooth 5 is fully implemented, it's quite liable to be dropped.
I think that people purchasing sound gear should do so on the assumption that the 3.5mm port is on the way out. Same for USB-A, which is one of the reasons that I suggested earlier that people pass on USB 2.0 audio interfaces.
In my view, the future of sound, whether production or consumption, is USB 3.1/TB3 and Bluetooth 5. The latter has so much potential that I can't think of a reason why someone would want a 3.5mm port, apart from a desire to use legacy gear, gear that in most cases probably didn't cost much in the first place. To be blunt, how long is Apple supposed to cater to people who want a port to plug in five year old, wired $50 headphones? What about $200 headphones? They're already plugged into a USB DAC.
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My $1000 HiFiMan Edition-X ultra-light full-size headphones sound better out of an iPhone headphone jack/adapter than any Bluetooth headphone ever made. And they scale up with a better DAC and amp to sound even better.
Let's try to talk apples and apples.
I am talking about Bluetooth 5, which is in the process of implementation, compared to a 3.5mm RCA port on a computer.
I have no idea what iPhone you are using or whether it delivers full Bluetooth 5. Even if your iPhone delivers Bluetooth 5 (I'm not sure that even the latest does, at least fully), you don't say that you have tried its output with a Bluetooth 5 set of headphones.
Your external DAC and amp have nothing to do with this discussion.
I'd like to suggest that you find out what Bluetooth 5 is about before waxing eloquent about your non-bluetooth headphones, which also have nothing to do with this.
PS: Am I supposed to be impressed that you paid US$!,000 for your headphones? If your answer is yes, could you explain (a) why and (b) what it has to do with this discussion? Thanks.
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I said nothing about BT 5 - I stated that my wired headphones with an iPhone headphone out or dongle sound better than any BT headphone ever made. My error was that I should have said "better than any BT headphone I've ever tried."
You implied that the people who want a headphone jack are using $50 headphones and I was pointing out that was merely an assumption.
[EDIT - apparently my Xs Max has BT 5.0, so I must seek out a BT 5.0 headphone to try with it - I might not get the chance until Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in October.]
Let me tell you what I think. You're some guy who paid US$1,000 for a set of headphones who is using an iPhone as storage for high resolution audio files that you are then playing through a digital to analogue converter and preamp that is attached to the iPhone as an external device. Hey, which one and how much did it cost?
This has nothing to do with playing audio directly via Bluetooth 5 vs the 3.5mm port on a mini.
The only apparent purpose of your post is to tell all of us that you spent US$1000 on a set of headphones, and probably hundreds more on a DAC for a phone.
Congratulations.
[doublepost=1553750578][/doublepost]How about you post again when you know something about Bluetooth 5 instead of telling us how you spent $1000 on headphones, plus however many hundreds more on a DAC/preamp, to listen to music on your phone.
This has nothing to do with playing audio directly via Bluetooth 5 vs the 3.5mm port on a mini.
The only apparent purpose of your post is to tell all of us that you spent US$1000 on a set of headphones, and probably hundreds more on a DAC for a phone.
Congratulations.
[doublepost=1553750578][/doublepost]How about you post again when you know something about Bluetooth 5 instead of telling us how you spent $1000 on headphones, plus however many hundreds more on a DAC/preamp, to listen to music on your phone.
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I don't feel like continuing this adversarial debate. Not sure how the stick got stuck up you so far, but I hope you learn to live with it better. Sayonara