U.S. President Joe Biden to Direct FTC to Draft Right to Repair Rules

[One2Grift]

If we keep devices around longer then less e-waste in the landfill which is a good thing. Apple just needs to be able to offer more repair services such as component level repair for example and shouldn't charge you insale prices to repair their devices if they break.

Factory component level repair isn't going to happen. Even well before the iPhone, Apple (and a whole lot of others) manufacture final assemblies consisting almost entirely of modules. At the factory if a module is bad it gets a new module, they wouldn't do module repair. If a device later goes into their refurbishment process, bad modules are replaced with good modules.
Making component repair does not in itself mean longer lasting. Companies refine the mfg process to provide, they hope, a quality product as cheaply as possible and one that consumers will trust. This process (something Toyota was supreme at) is one of constant refinement. Modular has been a major plus to this process. Try to change that inorganically? The repercussions are an unknown.

 

[harriska2]

I don't know why any user of Apple products would be against right to repair. There's two choices here:

- You want to repair your own stuff: You support right to repair.
- You only trust Apple to repair your own stuff: Right to repair doesn't affect you at all.

Everyone is free to take their Apple products only to Apple if they want. Repairing yourself is an OPTION, just like sideloading apps would be an OPTION and also shouldn't be so damn controversial.

Stop sucking up to a trillion dollar company like you owe them something. They don't care about you.

I have no idea why anyone would disagree with you. If you don’t believe in right to repair, don’t do it. Take it directly to Apple. Why take away someone else’s ability to repair their own products, especially post-warranty. I’m typing on a 5.5 yo ipp because ifixit sells batteries. Now our 2 ipads have an extended life. Our 2008 imac is on it’s THIRD life. We used it, it got a new ssd and cd rom, aging parents used it, now I have it back so I can use firewire to convert videos and laser discs. The thing is 13!

 

[Analog Kid]

I don't think there's any reason to think that the device would be less reliable. I also don't buy that they would need to be larger either. Just secure both the back panel and the battery without strong adhesives and bam, you're done. A couple of screws can be used to hold a battery in instead of a strong adhesive without taking up any extra space.

If your counter argument to an industry wide decision, such as embedding batteries, includes the words "just do this and you're done", then you haven't thought it through very well.

 

[avz]

The big Lie in this article is that title. Anyone here really believe Joe Biden has anything to do with this?

Maybe it is fair to assume that traditional establishment(politicians/bankers) feel threatened by the power that digital corporations are gaining?
Joe Biden does not want to end up in a position where he is left with very little/no power at all. Seems logical to me.

 

[benshive]

If your counter argument to an industry wide decision, such as embedding batteries, includes the words "just do this and you're done", then you haven't thought it through very well.

It depends on the motives behind why the decision was made across the industry. An industry wide decision doesn't always mean a decision that's best for the consumer. Many times it's quite the opposite. Are you under the impression that there's any practical purpose for cementing batteries inside of the phones? That there's some functionality that would be lost if a few screws were used instead? When a clear connection can be made between more restrictive phones and increased sales, it really isn't that complicated an issue to figure out.

 

[One2Grift]

If your counter argument to an industry wide decision, such as embedding batteries, includes the words "just do this and you're done", then you haven't thought it through very well.

Forcing removable battery manufacturing? Bad. Politcians/laywers along with the support of glib armchair "experts" making these decisions? Bad*2.

 

[Analog Kid]

It depends on the motives behind why the decision was made across the industry. An industry wide decision doesn't always mean a decision that's best for the consumer. Many times it's quite the opposite. Are you under the impression that there's any practical purpose for cementing batteries inside of the phones? That there's some functionality that would be lost if a few screws were used instead? When a clear connection can be made between more restrictive phones and increased sales, it really isn't that complicated an issue to figure out.

If there was demand for removable batteries, someone would sell the best phone they could with removable batteries. LG was looking for a way to keep their phone business alive, but they didn't choose this.

Yes, I believe there is a practical purpose for adhesives. Anything that moves will eventually fail. Screws concentrate force, adhesives spread it. Screws require gaskets for sealing, adhesives are gaskets. Screws need holes, adhesives do not. Screws go through things, adhesisives go behind or around them. Etc, etc, etc. There are still screws on the lightning connector, so it's not like they forgot how to use them, they just limit their use to where they add value.

If there's a clear connection between more restrictive phones and increased sales, then it seems people want more restrictive phones, doesn't it? I'd use words like compact and reliable rather than restrictive, but whatever words you choose it seems the free market made their choice.

 

[benshive]

Forcing removable battery manufacturing? Bad. Politcians/laywers along with the support of glib armchair "experts" making these decisions? Bad*2.

Lol yeah my bad, I'm sorry I didn't realize the Mt. Everest of expertise required to discuss the issue of removable batteries. If they were commonplace in the past that'd be one thing, but we're dealing with uncharted waters here. Better not question the decision of using a buttload of adhesive on the quickest degrading part of the device.

 

[One2Grift]

If there was demand for removable batteries, someone would sell the best phone they could with removable batteries. LG was looking for a way to keep their phone business alive, but they didn't choose this.

Yes, I believe there is a practical purpose for adhesives. Anything that moves will eventually fail. Screws concentrate force, adhesives spread it. Screws require gaskets for sealing, adhesives are gaskets. Screws need holes, adhesives do not. Screws go through things, adhesisives go behind or around them. Etc, etc, etc. There are still screws on the lightning connector, so it's not like they forgot how to use them, they just limit their use to where they add value.

If there's a clear connection between more restrictive phones and increased sales, then it seems people want more restrictive phones, doesn't it? I'd use words like compact and reliable rather than restrictive, but whatever words you choose it seems the free market made their choice.

Yes, and part of it is likely mfg process too. MFG is in constant state of refinement to make it better and with less expense. That is a boon to consumers. What isn't a boon to consumers? Decisions made by inexpert, ill-informed people that either can't grasp or choose to ignore the reality of the first two statements.

The industry had removable batteries Over years almost the entirety of the industry moved away from it. Some believing they need to fix that is not good for consumers.

 

[benshive]

If there was demand for removable batteries, someone would sell the best phone they could with removable batteries. LG was looking for a way to keep their phone business alive, but they didn't choose this.

Yes, I believe there is a practical purpose for adhesives. Anything that moves will eventually fail. Screws concentrate force, adhesives spread it. Screws require gaskets for sealing, adhesives are gaskets. Screws need holes, adhesives do not. Screws go through things, adhesisives go behind or around them. Etc, etc, etc. There are still screws on the lightning connector, so it's not like they forgot how to use them, they just limit their use to where they add value.

If there's a clear connection between more restrictive phones and increased sales, then it seems people want more restrictive phones, doesn't it? I'd use words like compact and reliable rather than restrictive, but whatever words you choose it seems the free market made their choice.

Not necessarily. Phones have become a necessity, whether we like it or not, so there's a constant demand for them. That doesn't mean the market as a whole is agreeing with every decision that phone manufacturers are making. If the battery is shot in your iPhone 7, Apple would much rather you feel the need to buy an iPhone 13, rather than pop a new battery in your old phone and keep using it. The former is better for Apple's sales, the latter is better for the consumer and the environment.

As for the last part of your comment, there are already plenty of screws in your iPhone that will hold for years and years. It really wouldn’t be tough to include screws that would easily outlive the life of the battery itself. Not to mention, manufacturers can include adhesive with strips that can be pulled on to remove them. New batteries could then come with adhesive pre-applied for the replacement.

If there legitimately is a practical reason to rigidly adhere these batteries with no way for the consumer to remove them, then I’ll be the first to change my mind. But I really just don’t buy it. It seems to me to be a clear way to make the devices obsolete when the battery degrades, thus stimulating more sales.

 

[Analog Kid]

there's a constant demand for them

That's not what you said. You said there was a connection to increased sales.

If the battery is shot in your iPhone 7, Apple would much rather you feel the need to buy an iPhone 13, rather than pop a new battery in your old phone and keep using it

If you choose a $1000 iPhone 13 over a $49 replacement battery installed by Apple into your iPhone7, then it's not because Apple wants you to buy the phone.

It really wouldn’t be tough to include screws

Citation please.

rigidly adhere these batteries with no way for the consumer to remove them

It's odd that most battery replacements are probably done by Apple and they've somehow set themselves an impossible task... Or, perhaps, "no way" is overstating the point a bit?

If there legitimately is a practical reason, then I’ll be the first to change my mind

I don't think so. I get the sense you probably wouldn't buy any argument, no matter how legitimate.

I really just don’t buy it

See?

 

[Mac_tech]

Looks like Steve Wozniak is aware of Right to Repair. Check out Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair and Louis Rossman's reply, A message & thank you to Steve Wozniak.

Louis is doing the good work. if it wasn't for him Right to repair wouldn't be a thing or as mainstream as it is currently.

 

[Mac_tech]

Factory component level repair isn't going to happen. Even well before the iPhone, Apple (and a whole lot of others) manufacture final assemblies consisting almost entirely of modules. At the factory if a module is bad it gets a new module, they wouldn't do module repair. If a device later goes into their refurbishment process, bad modules are replaced with good modules.
Making component repair does not in itself mean longer lasting. Companies refine the mfg process to provide, they hope, a quality product as cheaply as possible and one that consumers will trust. This process (something Toyota was supreme at) is one of constant refinement. Modular has been a major plus to this process. Try to change that inorganically? The repercussions are an unknown.

Interesting point. Rossmann Repair Group does component level repair and can be cheaper then going to the Apple store to get it fixed as some of the devices Apple doesn't support and Apple will charge you up the ass to repair it or sell you a new one which isn't right. For example I had to replace my iPhone X display assembly at the Apple store when traveling last year as it was close by and they tried to upsell (actually it was a downsell as it was the iPhone SE) which is wrong in my opinion. I told them fix the device I have.

 

[Richdmoore]

Reading all 13 pages, I see lots of people don’t want 3rd party parts/repairs. I can understand that to a point, I will go with official apple service/parts over sketchy parts every time. I now keep applecare+ on all my devices for this reason, I want official repairs/batteries should they be needed.

One of the problems I have encountered (with multiple devices) is when apple declares a product vintage, and simply won’t repair a device, or won’t do a battery service.

The effect is that I have to use “Oem” parts that I really can’t say for sure are oem for a repair, and even worse I have to do “battery roulette” and hope whatever eBay/amazon battery is actually good quality, which is very hard to know for sure.

The battery issue is the really aggravating thing, they need oem quality construction, and have oem hardware/software on them so they can work with a laptop power systems together, but dmca makes hacking the apple software to allow the battery to work like an original part illegal. One of the things I hope eventual legislation addresses is how after a manufacturer abandons first party repair options, is to then allow a third party part supplier to legally break drm/dmca if needed, to provide an option for repairs/replacements.

The same should apply to PlayStation/Xbox and other video games, if Microsoft/Sony will no longer repair disc drives, allow a third party to legally break the drm to allow a third party dvd drive to work as a replacement.

 

[One2Grift]

Interesting point. Rossmann Repair Group does component level repair and can be cheaper then going to the Apple store to get it fixed as some of the devices Apple doesn't support and Apple will charge you up the ass to repair it or sell you a new one which isn't right. For example I had to replace my iPhone X display assembly at the Apple store when traveling last year as it was close by and they tried to upsell (actually it was a downsell as it was the iPhone SE) which is wrong in my opinion. I told them fix the device I have.

I mistakenly said component level can't happen at all. You're correct that it is available (I use Bob's Repair as the catch all for it). People with that radio shack skill can on their own too. But factories generally are move! it! through!. Component attempted repair just too time consuming and too unreliable. I worked at a coin op game factory then I worked at Apple's Refurb (A LONG time ago). At Apple I went to and worked repeatedly with one of the factories. It's always largely been modular. At refurb we didn't do component repair either. Well we did but not as retail, for our own fun.
At the sub assembly factories, the process of putting together modules (a LOT of components/piece parts going into it) is very machine precise, even the odd component insertion (that designs love to avoid if possible). This is what keeps the devices being made quickly, high quality, lower price. We do not want to go messing with their processes (not saying you said that).
Making spare parts more widely available is a different conversation.

 

[Richdmoore]

I mistakenly said component level can't happen at all. You're correct that it is available (I use Bob's Repair as the catch all for it). People with that radio shack skill can on their won too. But factories generally are move! it! through!. Component attempted repair just too time consuming and too unreliable. I worked at a coin op game factory thenI worked at Apple's Refurb (A LONG time ago). AT Apple I went to and worked repeatedly with one of the factories. It's always largely been modular. At refurb we didn't do component repair either. Well we did but not as retail, for our own fun.
At the sub assembly factories, the process of putting together modules (a LOT of components/piece parts going into it) is very machine precise, even the odd component insertion (that designs love to avoid if possible). This is what keeps the devices being made, high quality, lower price. We do now want to go messing with their processes (not saying you said that).
Making spare parts more widely available is a different conversation.

I don't think many people expect apple will sell individual chips for repair, even under this law. Hopefully they will eventually sell consumable items inside phones (batteries) and provide methods/software to pair items such as Touch ID sensors to the motherboard.

I would love at a future date a method to keep vintage gear working. Check out some of the Atari user groups, there are people constantly trying to keep those vintage systems running. It would be great if at some point the unavailable proprietary chips like the TIA be legally manufactured again, for those enthusiasts who wish to keep them operating.

 

[Mac_tech]

Reading all 13 pages, I see lots of people don’t want 3rd party parts/repairs. I can understand that to a point, I will go with official apple service/parts over sketchy parts every time. I now keep applecare+ on all my devices for this reason, I want official repairs/batteries should they be needed.

One of the problems I have encountered (with multiple devices) is when apple declares a product vintage, and simply won’t repair a device, or won’t do a battery service.

The effect is that I have to use “Oem” parts that I really can’t say for sure are oem for a repair, and even worse I have to do “battery roulette” and hope whatever eBay/amazon battery is actually good quality, which is very hard to know for sure.

The battery issue is the really aggravating thing, they need oem quality construction, and have oem hardware/software on them so they can work with a laptop power systems together, but dmca makes hacking the apple software to allow the battery to work like an original part illegal. One of the things I hope eventual legislation addresses is how after a manufacturer abandons first party repair options, is to then allow a third party part supplier to legally break drm/dmca if needed, to provide an option for repairs/replacements.

The same should apply to PlayStation/Xbox and other video games, if Microsoft/Sony will no longer repair disc drives, allow a third party to legally break the drm to allow a third party dvd drive to work as a replacement.

Good point but sometimes Apple charges ridiculous prices just because they can. That’s why a third party a good reputable shop is something to consider in the long run. Some places don’t have an Apple store or the nearest store is 2 or 4 hours away.

Don’t use eBay or Amazon for batteries. Check out iFixit.

I feel right to repair is important as not many grasp the idea. The longer devices are around, the better for the environment and the ability to fix it correctly is a win win. iFixit has guides to fix just about anything.

 

[One2Grift]

I don't think many people expect apple will sell individual chips for repair, even under this law. Hopefully they will eventually sell consumable items inside phones (batteries) and provide methods/software to pair items such as Touch ID sensors to the motherboard.

I would love at a future date a method to keep vintage gear working. Check out some of the Atari user groups, there are people constantly trying to keep those vintage systems running. It would be great if at some point the unavailable proprietary chips like the TIA be legally manufactured again, for those enthusiasts who wish to keep them operating.

I completely understand it would be great for a sub sect of radio shack skilled people(and I'm sure a few others). But making designs based on this sub sect just isn't going to happen. And from my experience (a.k.a. my own opinion) the design is centered around how factories can most efficiently get devices to final assembly, to stores/customer hands. I suspect much is Just In Time ordering, we did a lot of that. Quality but at rapid production speed at the factory was critical (component final assembly is critical) . Companies are often trying to build just the right number for just when it's needed (they fail on this sometimes).

Certain parts can't be sold but I've less an issue with OEM batteries and case and glass etc etc being made more widely available. But Apple or any other company is not going to maintain warranty with non certified repairs. That isn't an Apple only thing by a 1000 country miles. That kind of repair is for out of warranty situations. Are there people who want in warranty non certified repair(I'm not sure, just asking)? That's just crazy...

 

[Richdmoore]

Good point but sometimes Apple charges ridiculous prices just because they can. That’s why a third party a good reputable shop is something to consider in the long run. Some places don’t have an Apple store or the nearest store is 2 or 4 hours away.

Don’t use eBay or Amazon for batteries. Check out iFixit.

I feel right to repair is important as not many grasp the idea. The longer devices are around, the better for the environment and the ability to fix it correctly is a win win. iFixit has guides to fix just about anything.

I agree for the most part, but I honestly don’t have faith in owc or ifixit batteries either. There are multiple threads like this criticizing all third party batteries. (I will concede even apple probably get a bad batch now and then.)

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...y-third-party-batteries-for-macbooks.1098836/


Apple charges a lot for repairs, so I really have to keep applecare+ on them, or risk 3rd party repairs with all the issues. That obviously drives applecare sales. I was very happy when apple decided to let us go monthly on applecare+ past the 2/3 years.

 

[stars_fan]

Stumbling bumbling whispering creepy joe isn’t directing anything.

 

[Analog Kid]

I mistakenly said component level can't happen at all. You're correct that it is available (I use Bob's Repair as the catch all for it). People with that radio shack skill can on their own too. But factories generally are move! it! through!. Component attempted repair just too time consuming and too unreliable. I worked at a coin op game factory then I worked at Apple's Refurb (A LONG time ago). At Apple I went to and worked repeatedly with one of the factories. It's always largely been modular. At refurb we didn't do component repair either. Well we did but not as retail, for our own fun.
At the sub assembly factories, the process of putting together modules (a LOT of components/piece parts going into it) is very machine precise, even the odd component insertion (that designs love to avoid if possible). This is what keeps the devices being made quickly, high quality, lower price. We do not want to go messing with their processes (not saying you said that).
Making spare parts more widely available is a different conversation.

I just did some browsing through Rossman’s support forums, and it’s interesting to read the questions about how to fix a previously botched repair. There‘s one where someone tried to replace a RAM chip and shorted the board, one where someone tried to repair a display and destroyed the CPU…

This is why people drive 80mph to the airport but are afraid to fly— they don’t trust anyone else but overestimate their own competence.

 

[One2Grift]

Not necessarily. Phones have become a necessity, whether we like it or not, so there's a constant demand for them. That doesn't mean the market as a whole is agreeing with every decision that phone manufacturers are making. If the battery is shot in your iPhone 7, Apple would much rather you feel the need to buy an iPhone 13, rather than pop a new battery in your old phone and keep using it. The former is better for Apple's sales, the latter is better for the consumer and the environment.

As for the last part of your comment, there are already plenty of screws in your iPhone that will hold for years and years. It really wouldn’t be tough to include screws that would easily outlive the life of the battery itself. Not to mention, manufacturers can include adhesive with strips that can be pulled on to remove them. New batteries could then come with adhesive pre-applied for the replacement.

If there legitimately is a practical reason to rigidly adhere these batteries with no way for the consumer to remove them, then I’ll be the first to change my mind. But I really just don’t buy it. It seems to me to be a clear way to make the devices obsolete when the battery degrades, thus stimulating more sales.

I don't dismiss your question but Samsung, Google, Apple, others are supposed to show their designs, production schedule metrics, cost per unit variations? Show them to Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell?

Your point would be more correct if there was a single manufacturer, There isn't. There's several manufacturers crossing two (technically 3) OS platforms. There is variety but in this case there is consensus. The market has spoken. You'd have to believe there was some kind of cabal if you believe they all wink, nodded and started having the machines affix the battery in the blink of an eye.
Prior to iPhone 6+ I wouldn't buy an iPhone. I wanted a big screen. I used to carry around an extra red battery (fair sized item) with my Samsung Galaxy. When I went with the 6+ I was definitely concerned without having a removable battery (it was my binkey when traveling)(that worry and the lack of apps for iPhone at the time). Ended up a complete non issue. The point being this would be a politically forced issue to manufacturers. They already decided, not in unison, as an industry that affixed batteries are the way. Yet it must be done for a minority segment of smartphone users who want to get a decade out of their phone (but you can, you need to get battery changed at Bob's Repair Shack).
One other off the cuff item to consider: affixed batteries actually (probably) force battery tech to be even more efficient. Necessity is the mother of invention. An easier change just means the need for longer lasting batteries just isn't as profitable. Companies are always less likely to risk capital for reduced revenue potential.

 

[0924487]

As soon a you crack open an idevice, the weather sealing is compromised and it'll never be the same again. Devices should be recycled and you should get a new or refurb one directly from Apple. It should be a constant cycle.

Apple does replace iPhone batteries. When they do, they also replace the seal.

 

[mikethemartian]

If your counter argument to an industry wide decision, such as embedding batteries, includes the words "just do this and you're done", then you haven't thought it through very well.

It is a pretty simple concept to replace glue with fasteners. It doesn’t need a lot of thinking to figure it out.

 

[mikethemartian]

I just did some browsing through Rossman’s support forums, and it’s interesting to read the questions about how to fix a previously botched repair. There‘s one where someone tried to replace a RAM chip and shorted the board, one where someone tried to repair a display and destroyed the CPU…

This is why people drive 80mph to the airport but are afraid to fly— they don’t trust anyone else but overestimate their own competence.

Well in the first case you gave a link to the person was successful in the end. Either way it shows someone working through a problem and learning so I don’t understand what is bad about that.