Unionized Maryland Apple Store Workers Request 10% Raise and Option to Accept Customer Tips

[0924487]

Not everything makes sense from a pure private market economics perspective. Yes the state should cover heat, yes the taxpayers should pay for it. Ignoring any moral arguments that letting people suffer or even freeze to death when you can stop it there’s market economics on the government level that are important. As you accurately noted we fund a military to advance aocietal interest, whether defense or projection of power for economic or other reasons.

The government in part exists ti fund the things that are economically important but too big, too long term, or cost too much for a private company to commit to. That includes core infrastructure *and*, crucially, social services. Social service costs are a loss leader for the economy, people can work, generate economic activity, and grow the economy better if, say, they dont freeze to death.

So why should taxpayers fund heat from a purely economic POV? Because if people have basic needs met in the long run they contribute to the economy, and both create and consume goods and services that support those taxpayers in, overall, long term, higher amounts than it costs.

Also worth noting that people who are the edge of freezing to death, starving to death, etc - people who have nothing to lose - are more likely to become violent or radicalized because, hey, they have nothing to lose. Do you like riots? Terrorism? Revolutions? Keep people in abject poverty in huge amounts, create an underclass, and that is what you’ll get. Because when someone is desperate and has nothing to lose…

If you think the tax is too low for you, why don't you make a gift to the US government? There is no limit on how much you can gift to the US treasury!

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html#

Economics is a science, not a philosophy. That's why it's in Nobel Prize as Economic Science, where as Philosophy is not.

What's the difference?

Science tells you what will happen. Philosophy tells you what should happen.

If you force the outcome, i.e., what should happen, then something else must give.

In the case of public spending, you are focusing on what we should spend tax money on, but you neglected where to collect those tax money from. Same with politicians in the US, they ran a deficit and kicked the bucket forward. Because no one want to be the term where the music stops.

That's eating the seed for next year because you are hungry. This is still predicted by economics, it's called reversion to the mean. What goes up, must come down.

 

[seek3r]

If you think the tax is too low for you, why don't you make a gift to the US government? There is no limit on how much you can gift to the US treasury!

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html#

Economics is a science, not a philosophy. That's why it's in Nobel Prize as Economic Science, where as Philosophy is not.

What's the difference?

Science tells you what will happen. Philosophy tells you what should happen.

If you force the outcome, i.e., what should happen, then something else must give.

In the case of public spending, you are focusing on what we should spend tax money on, but you neglected where to collect those tax money from. Same with politicians in the US, they ran a deficit and kicked the bucket forward. Because no one want to be the term where the music stops.

That's eating the seed for next year because you are hungry. This is still predicted by economics, it's called revision to the mean. What goes up, must come down.

Speaking as someone who has legit published papers: you don’t actually seem to understand how science works, how science within economics works, how cause and effect work, what mean reversion describes, or indeed anything else in that buzzword salad. I’m legit not sure where to start, you’re all over the place

Not to mention your metaphor choice is interesting in context since, look, if you eat your corn seed because you’re *hungry* as opposed to gluttonous, because you’re starving, it really doesnt matter - you cant plant that corn seed next year if you starved to death first

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

Tips are fine in restaurants and hotels (hospitality industry) and certain services BUT when you start expanding it all over and especially at places like Apple it's a joke. A way for corporations to pay low wages and force customers to foot that bill. Pay fair and honest wages and give a reason for employees to feel worthy and excited to work. Enough of maximizing profits at all costs.

Oh I agree tips anywhere other than the places you mention are a joke. But fair wage? Pretty sure retail store employees are getting a fair wage. It's retail. IF retail paid more, Apple employees would go to another retail store to make more. They are fairly paid. This unionizing is a joke and the employees who voted for it should grow up and get a job that pays more once they get some experience.

You do know employees get one heck of a discount on laptops or iPads, etc. right? A LOT better than the education discount. There are perks of being an Apple store employee.

 

[seek3r]

Oh I agree tips anywhere other than the places you mention are a joke. But fair wage? Pretty sure retail store employees are getting a fair wage. It's retail. IF retail paid more, Apple employees would go to another retail store to make more. They are fairly paid. This unionizing is a joke and the employees who voted for it should grow up and get a job that pays more once they get some experience.

You do know employees get one heck of a discount on laptops or iPads, etc. right? A LOT better than the education discount. There are perks of being an Apple store employee.

I didnt know you could eat a macbook pro when prices at the grocery store skyrocket

And I love your race to the bottom logic on what people should seek where the ceiling on wages is being slightly better than the local average for the entire retail sector

 

[gugy]

I didnt know you could eat a macbook pro when prices at the grocery store skyrocket

And I love your race to the bottom logic on what people should seek where the ceiling on wages is being slightly better than the local average for the entire retail sector

LMAO. I don't know how much an Apple retail employee makes but it's interesting how many folks love to defend corporations against workers. While sometimes workers don't have a good reason to advocate changes, the majority of the time, corporations screw with workers' rights and fail to provide a fair wage in order to maximize profits.
Apple is a Trillionaire endeavor and I'm sure they can do better in many regards when it comes to proving fair wages.

 

[0924487]

Speaking as someone who has legit published papers: you don’t actually seem to understand how science works, how science within economics works, how cause and effect work, what mean reversion describes, or indeed anything else in that buzzword salad. I’m legit not sure where to start, you’re all over the place

Not to mention your metaphor choice is interesting in context since, look, if you eat your corn seed because you’re *hungry* as opposed to gluttonous, because you’re starving, it really doesnt matter - you cant plant that corn seed next year if you starved to death first

All that diversion, still hasn’t answered the question who’s gonna fork out the extra tax needed to fund those programs.

How many of your papers convinced the American public about a tax hike?

 

[tothemoonsands]

5% of $3000 is $150. I’m not used to tipping for electronics, groceries, etc, and frankly this change if rolled out at all apple stores would just push me further into preferring online checkout.

I think a tipping option reduces the Apple Store customer experience, which is already pretty poor these days in my opinion.

However, I can see where workers who don’t make a lot relative to the expensive products they sell want to bargain to have an option for more pay.

It’s easy to think of examples such as an employee going above and beyond spending 30m-1hr with a customer showing off features and explaining. Commission makes more sense, but ultimately there’s pros and cons to both ways.

 

[avz]

Economics is a science, not a philosophy. That's why it's in Nobel Prize as Economic Science, where as Philosophy is not.

What's the difference?

Science tells you what will happen. Philosophy tells you what should happen.

If you force the outcome, i.e., what should happen, then something else must give.

Economy is a humanitarian science where it is extremely important what moral values you base it on if you want to avoid recessions and the Great Depression.

There is a reason why political economy destroys "economics" you are talking about every single time. As a matter of fact you are seeing it all for yourself right this very moment.

 

[avz]

All that diversion, still hasn’t answered the question who’s gonna fork out the extra tax needed to fund those programs.

How many of your papers convinced the American public about a tax hike?

While "American public" already know what it is like to live on $1 a day it is fair to say that the more recent generations took way too much for granted.

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

I didnt know you could eat a macbook pro when prices at the grocery store skyrocket

And I love your race to the bottom logic on what people should seek where the ceiling on wages is being slightly better than the local average for the entire retail sector

Pretty simple, actually. But you have to understand economics. What is the value of the services you provide? Is someone who processes a sale of an item on a shelf the same as someone who saves someone's life? Should a retail associate make the same money as a heart surgeon? No. Anyone can go in to a retail store and process sales. Not everyone goes through years of schooling to learn how to cut.

I'll go another route - if you are in a car maintenance facility, should the person changing oil get paid the same as someone who rebuilds engines? The same as someone troubleshooting electrical issues? No, the person changing oil should not be paid the same. Don't try to make it so. You won't have people who will be motivated to do the more complex work.

It's been said before, but retail jobs and fast food jobs are not meant to provide a sustainable living and anyone who thinks that is not living in reality. They are a way for people to learn how to show up to work on time, follow instructions, learn to work with different people, learn a little about working with the public. Maybe a manager should make enough, but not an associate on the floor. The higher the skill and higher the responsibility, the more one should make. Stop making menial jobs - ones without much skill - worth more than they are.

 

[avz]

Pretty simple, actually. But you have to understand economics. What is the value of the services you provide?

What do you think is the value the Fed provides? The all important "price stability"? Not so simple, isn't it?

 

[0924487]

Economy is a humanitarian science where it is extremely important what moral values you base it on if you want to avoid recessions and the Great Depression.

There is a reason why political economy destroys "economics" you are talking about every single time. As a matter of fact you are seeing it all for yourself right this very moment.

It’s not humanitarian at all. I have a degree in Econometrics. Google Behavioural Economics and see how it’s used in the real world, such as advertising.

Economics is the foundation of capitalism. It’s the science of market behaviour and the transaction of interests. It’s a social science.

I never said economists are here to make the world a better place for everyone. Economists are there to advance the interests of whoever employed them.

 

[0924487]

While "American public" already know what it is like to live on $1 a day it is fair to say that the more recent generations took way too much for granted.

So, you did publish tons of papers on where we need to use tax dollar on and completely ignoring where to raise those tax dollars.

Bruh, all markets must clear.

 

[avz]

It’s not humanitarian at all. I have a degree in Econometrics. Google Behavioural Economics and see how it’s used in the real world, such as advertising.

Economics is the foundation of capitalism. It’s the science of market behaviour and the transaction of interests. It’s a social science.

I never said economists are here to make the world a better place for everyone. Economists are there to advance the interests of whoever employed them.

So, you did publish tons of papers on where we need to use tax dollar on and completely ignoring where to raise those tax dollars.

Bruh, all markets must clear.

So ultimately you are defending the "normality" and "objectivity" of yourself living on 1 dollar a day? Because capitalism cannot exist without the Great Depression and no amount of "science" can possibly stop it? The moral values of everybody involved have no bearing on it at all?

 

[Scoob Redux]

Except that the whole point of a union is that the company isn't using the tactic on a service worker, they're bargaining with a collective. Yes, both sides are angling for the best deal they can achieve. It's one thing though to assume that an individual is powerless, but what you're suggesting is that, in aggregate, they're also stupid.

I'm not suggesting anyone is stupid. The corporation is offering poverty wages. When offered tips as an augmentation to the low wages, the collective bargaining unit will, of course, accept. They're not getting anything more in wages. Accepting the tips is easier than fighting for higher wages and reaching impasse. The corporation wins. Consumers lose.

 

[avz]

The corporation wins. Consumers lose.

Don't you think that this is where the corporation "wants you"? The consumers against the workers? Everybody heard about the "divide and conquer" but nobody understands how it works?

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

iPhone 15 launch day in Maryland..

 

[0924487]

So ultimately you are defending the "normality" and "objectivity" of yourself living on 1 dollar a day? Because capitalism cannot exist without the Great Depression and no amount of "science" can possibly stop it? The moral values of everybody involved have no bearing on it at all?

Morality has no place in Economics. They belong in the Public Policy major.

If a market actor (e.g. a business, or an individual) doesn’t make economic sense to exist, maybe it shouldn’t.

Economics is not there to stop anything, it has no intent, agency, culture, morality, or value.

Like Science, it tells you a more complicated version of if A then B.

If you are living on $1 a day, Economics will tell you to ask yourself, why are you only generating less than $1 per day of productivity? If you are generating more than that, why don’t you find something else to do that’s more worth your time?

 

[avz]

If a market actor (e.g. a business, or an individual) doesn’t make economic sense to exist, maybe it shouldn’t.

I take it that you have absolutely zero idea what you have just said here. Slippery slope is sliding down the slippery slope at a breakneck speed.

 

[seek3r]

Morality has no place in Economics. They belong in the Public Policy major.

If a market actor (e.g. a business, or an individual) doesn’t make economic sense to exist, maybe it shouldn’t.

Economics is not there to stop anything, it has no intent, agency, culture, morality, or value.

Like Science, it tells you a more complicated version of if A then B.

If you are living on $1 a day, Economics will tell you to ask yourself, why are you only generating less than $1 per day of productivity? If you are generating more than that, why don’t you find something else to do that’s more worth your time?

Ah yes, I forgot that Universities exempt the econ dept from their IRBs/ERBs/REBs. Oh wait, they dont.

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

What do you think is the value the Fed provides? The all important "price stability"? Not so simple, isn't it?

They help control inflation through monetary policy. The issue people seem to conveniently forget is the governments all provided checks to people for "nothing". There were also reduced tax burdens. That alone will cause inflation. We also had severe supply chain issues due to factories being shuttered for a time (remember - most have gone to just in time inventory which adds additional pressures), we are pretty lucky inflation isn't any higher than it is now. You can thank the Fed for that.

 

[floral]

...they want Apple to implement a tipping system that would provide customers with the option to offer 3%, 5%, or custom tips when checking out with an in-store credit card transaction. "This will allow thankful patrons the ability to express gratitude for a job well done without any obligations," the union said. Tip money would be split among employees based on hours worked.

Not sure what most people in this comment thread are talking about... I'm fine with tipping employees. Don't like tipping? Don't... it's an option.

 

[avz]

They help control inflation through monetary policy. The issue people seem to conveniently forget is the governments all provided checks to people for "nothing". There were also reduced tax burdens. That alone will cause inflation. We also had severe supply chain issues due to factories being shuttered for a time (remember - most have gone to just in time inventory which adds additional pressures), we are pretty lucky inflation isn't any higher than it is now. You can thank the Fed for that.

This has been going on since 2008 when the markets stopped expanding but the money printing never stopped. I guess being able to cover things up is also an effort that provides certain "value". "Covering things up" usually depends on resources and leverage you have on a world stage.

I am heard that even a hedonistic index of enjoyment a faster computer is used to reduce an actual inflation during calculation. I was surprised but I guess we all can agree that using a faster computer is more enjoyable so this "index" is definitely somewhat legitimate. I am sure that raising interest rates to 20% will "help" even more and a lot of people will be thankful and feel lucky.

 

[seek3r]

Not sure what most people in this comment thread are talking about... I'm fine with tipping employees. Don't like tipping? Don't... it's an option.

Problems with the US specifically aside (my problem with it here is that I think the way it's used in the US is a bastardization: instead of being used for rewarding *exceptional* service it's used as a way of allowing corporations to pay people less and pass a hidden cost to consumers - because in several industries if you *don't* tip you're screwing the employee since they don't make a living wage from their employer) the main thing a lot of folks in this thread have a problem with is *anyone* that does a job they don't consider "crucial" doesnt deserve to make a living wage.

 

[0924487]

I take it that you have absolutely zero idea what you have just said here. Slippery slope is sliding down the slippery slope at a breakneck speed.

Yeah, that's predicted by Economics. What's new?

What to do with it is up to the Public Policy majors, campaign donors and the politicians, not Economists.

You know, the right pockets need to be lined and certain interests exchanged through elephant bumping before anything can be done. Ironically, those are transactions of interests, which means the behaviour of which can be analyzed by Economics.