Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

icwhatudidthere

macrumors 6502
Nov 3, 2019
321
497
I've been using Surface Pro devices for years and years now, I've always failed to see where it's limited as a tablet, in particular the past 2-3 years where they have really pushed hard to improve the tablet UI. I think they have done a great job in letting users switch from a mouse/keyboard paradigm to a touch paradigm seamlessly and I have no issues using it like this on a daily basis for both work and non-work.
I've tried for years to get Surface Pro (still have my Surface Pro 1) to work as a tablet for media consumption but the Windows ecosystem lacks a lot of tablet apps which offer better touch interface and media downloads.

Now with Windows 11, they've even gotten rid of any way to switch to desktop mode, so if I plug in my Surface Pro 9 to a monitor and dock with its own keyboard/mouse, the Surface still thinks it's in tablet mode until I connect the Surface keyboard. The Windows 11 swipe-in from left annoys me to no end as they think showing me MSN links is useful. In Windows 10 that swipe was useful in touch mode to switch between apps. Killing the Android subsystem was the end of the experiment for me.
 

mediacomposer

macrumors member
Jun 21, 2010
58
131
Boston, MA
2018 11" iPad Pro is still the GOAT of value buys almost 6 years later - same magnetic pencil, 120Hz Pro Motion, Magic Keyboard, USB-C, powerful enough A12X to run anything I've thrown at it, and the battery still lasts 4-6 hours - the only thing that would make me upgrade is OLED and a better OS to take advantage of M3 and maybe better battery life, but those rumored prices would keep me on my 2018 until the wheels fall off
 

dgdosen

macrumors 68030
Dec 13, 2003
2,744
1,381
Seattle
OLED might make a difference, but I'm thinking the market for the M3 iPad Pro will fall short of expectations. The sentiment of it (iPadOS?) not being compelling is pretty widespread. I barely use one as it is...
 
  • Like
Reactions: dalestrauss

gank41

macrumors 68040
Mar 25, 2008
3,986
4,514
I also have an M1 MBP and, until recently, a 2018 iPad Pro. Last year I bought a refurbished 2021 iPad Pro just to get the M1 CPU. My iPad is used for browsing, reading, and watching video content. I suspect I won't need to upgrade the iPad for another few years.
I really WANT a new MBP, but I keep pushing this M1 machine and have only recently started having issues with Logic Pro or some other Memory Limitations with needing to use some VM's. I think if/when I do upgrade my M1 MBP to whatever's current at the time, I'll have that thing for a very long time.

I use my iPad for the same.. It's basically the companion to my M1 MBP and I watch TV and randomly sort thru other stuff.. It works fine! I mean, for what it does, unless they do something drastic with the OS to require newer chips, I'm hoping to keep using this thing for a while. It feels like paying off your car and finally not having car payments. Like, I wanna use the heck out of it now and just not care lol
 

koelsh

macrumors 6502
Oct 26, 2021
254
326
I have an M1 iPad Air 11 and frankly I find the bezels thin enough, maybe too thin, with "thumb rejection" not working in my experience. Between the weight and only being able to hold the outer 6mm it makes this iPad a desktop device which to me defeats much of the point of an iPad.
 

artifex

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2003
347
5
4TB storage, but can you plug it into your desktop or laptop, unlock the screen, then let it mount as a drive and transfer random files across? Or even just MTP support?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: dazz87

koelsh

macrumors 6502
Oct 26, 2021
254
326
4TB storage, but can you plug it into your desktop or laptop, unlock the screen, then let it mount as a drive and transfer random files across? Or even just MTP support?
2004 Apple would. 2024 Apple doesn't know what any of those words mean.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: gank41

HiVolt

macrumors 68000
Sep 29, 2008
1,654
6,053
Toronto, Canada
The only thing I miss is the great display, but I pretty much only enjoyed that when watching movies. You have to have the keyboard case to stand it up and make it usable anyway, and the durability of that case was shockingly poor.
I dont know how people enjoy watching movies on iPads. the aspect ratio is totally wrong for movies or tv shows, many of which are even skinnier than 16:9 so a 12.9" ipad gives you like a fraction of the screen for the actual content.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,590
22,048
Singapore
I dont know how people enjoy watching movies on iPads. the aspect ratio is totally wrong for movies or tv shows, many of which are even skinnier than 16:9 so a 12.9" ipad gives you like a fraction of the screen for the actual content.

The iPad Pro was perfect for watching the synder cut of the justice league.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tarantularock

allenvanhellen

macrumors 6502a
Dec 8, 2015
583
1,193
I dont know how people enjoy watching movies on iPads. the aspect ratio is totally wrong for movies or tv shows, many of which are even skinnier than 16:9 so a 12.9" ipad gives you like a fraction of the screen for the actual content.
There's no notch or dynamic island ;) as there is on an iPhone, and the screen is still much larger. Plus you can zoom to 4:3. For 80s and 90s kids (or older), I think it's kinda nostalgic or not so bothersome to crop to 4:3 or watch things letterboxed. The only way to watch videos with no or little letterboxing on an Apple portable is to use an 11" MacBook Air or an iPhone SE (16:9 aspect ratios).
 

steve09090

macrumors 68020
Aug 12, 2008
2,125
4,084
I dont know how people enjoy watching movies on iPads. the aspect ratio is totally wrong for movies or tv shows, many of which are even skinnier than 16:9 so a 12.9" ipad gives you like a fraction of the screen for the actual content.
So if you had a choice of 4:3 OR 16:9 for ALL iPad uses, you’d choose 16:9? Watching content is one single use of a massive system. 16:9 is horrible when using the iPad in portrait mode, like reading.
 
  • Like
Reactions: allenvanhellen

tuyylihk

macrumors member
Aug 7, 2012
54
2
That $1500 starting price prediction for the 11.x" was always ridiculous. That prediction made no sense whatsoever.

As mentioned in the other thread, I'm thinking they may delete the 128 GB model and start at 256 GB, for the price of the existing 256 GB model, at US$899, effectively increasing the base price by $100. Or at most to $949, increasing the base price by $150.
If you see the record, almost all price increase prediction is wrong afterwards.

Rumors always said iPhone and iPad will have price increase these years. And the result?
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve09090

dalestrauss

macrumors regular
Sep 1, 2013
181
203
Midland, TX

The iPad does not need a desktop OS or desktop file system. Of people want that, get a desktop. The iPad is perfect the way it is.

Why is it iPad purists feel only their opinions matter? It is NOT perfect as it is for those of us who really USE our iPads for more than browsing and watching Apple TV. Why are you threatened by the option of “MacOS Mode” when connected to a keyboard and mouse? That won’t harm your iPaddy experience (David Pogue’s term, not mine) while giving millions of users the option to have both in this thin, light, efficient, and powerful package.

This. I have super high hopes as from what I understand the Snapdraon X will bring significant battery life and performance on par with Apple. I can only speak for myself, but my Surface Pro's just absolutely trounce the functionality of an iPad with the caveat being crappy battery life, I can't wait for this to be evened out. If Apple offered MacOS on their iPads I would highly consider that route, but iPadOS will never be sufficient for my needs no matter how much CPU/GPU power they throw at it.

I agree 100% - a dual boot iPad Pro with MacOS when connected to the Magic Keyboard or an external keyboard and mouse.

Tim - please be sure to enable M3 dual monitor mode when the iPad is closed.
 
Last edited:

steve09090

macrumors 68020
Aug 12, 2008
2,125
4,084
Why is it iPad purists feel only their opinions matter? It is NOT perfect as it is for those of us who really USE our iPads for more than browsing and watching Apple TV. Why are you threatened by the option of “MacOS Mode” when connected to a keyboard and mouse? That won’t harm your iPaddy experience (David Pogue’s term, not mine) while giving millions of users the option to have both in this thin, light, efficient, and powerful package.
On the contrary, I enjoy the iPad, and may even be considered an iPad purist (whatever that is). I am certainly not threatened (weird term to use) by having a dual boot mode. But let's discuss... Despite you believing I don't value others opinions, I would like to hear yours.

I appreciate your comment "It is NOT perfect as it is for those of us who really USE our iPads for more than browsing and watching Apple TV"

Firstly, there is no "perfect" machine for everyone. And to put someone down who does use it only for TV and browsing is disingenuous and frankly, pretty elitist. Notwithstanding, I think I was pretty much an iPad power-user a a couple of years ago and only my recent retirement has reduced that.

As an example: As a CSI, Workflow is key. I used it daily to record notes, draw sketches, plans using the pencil and also with the LiDAR. I would use the GPS to record a (reasonably) accurate location for bodies located in scrubland, or blood trails etc. I was able to do this because the OS and the apps enable this. I would take a photo, mark it up or add measurements to it and immediately send it to investigators. I don’t want to try and find <shift/option/3> to take a screen shot (which I regularly used for recording specific locations on Maps). And we really don't need 3 different ways to do a screenshot. How is that improving usability?

As soon as I retired a couple of years ago, I continued to use it to draw house plans for realestate and used it for 360° Panorama/Virtual Tour photography (with Ricoh 360° camera) and send it all to Matterport or other format etc. So let’s not pretend it isn’t already a very capable device in its current form outside of TV and browsing. All of this is possible because of iPadOS. I simply cannot do Matterport live captures on a Mac in any form (dual boot or not).

Sure, you could dual boot but then lose the autonomy, but mainly the simplicity that the iPad OS provides. A MacOS will simply not do what I want. I can vouch for that given we also had Panasonic Toughbooks that are windows laptops with detachable keyboards. A really useful and bullet proof device. With no serious discernible or practical difference between laptop OS‘s these days, I can tell you that people (Detectives/Investigators, other CSI's etc) loved the speed and versatility that I provided, over those who didn't use an iPad. I simply could not do what I wanted with a PC of any persuasion. Partly because the quality of the screen, but mainly because of the apps and the way they work with iPadOS. OMG, trying to mark up images on a touch screen laptop or draw a house plan (was a horrible experience).

An argument against this is that iPad Apps could be converted/ported directly over to Mac OS, but the reality is that in practice, they are different and modification, which are usually downgrades always follow with that conversion. iPad apps on the MacOS apps are rarely as good as they are on an iPad.

The only thing I would add, is if you want a PC experience with an iPad, you can still use apps that are designed to be used with a keyboard, mouse, trackpad etc that can already be connected. What is wrong with that?

But bypassing my experiences outlined above. What can you NOT do on the iPad now that only a dual boot iPad would provide?

But you are talking dual-boot. Practical Questions for your perfect machine.

What rules would you have when booting into the MacOS variant?​
  • When updating do you have to do an iPadOS update, and then the macOS update, or are they the same?
  • Do iPad apps stay in memory as they do now, continue to hold that memory, or do they shut down?
What are the limitations going between both OS's​
  • Are they (the iPad/MacOS apps) connected in anyway when rebooting?
  • Would you have access to all data contained in those iPadOS apps?
  • Would you need an iPad app and ALSO an Mac app for the same app, or would it be the same (and what difference would you see depending on what boot you are in)?
  • Would there be a nightmare in conflicts between those apps?
  • Would there be additional costs for the consumer as most developers charge for each and iPad/Mac/iPhone app even though under your proposal, they would be on the same device.
So many questions that would cause this to be a nightmare. Easy to say, a lot less easy to implement.

I reiterate, we all have different experiences and opinions, and yours is no more valuable than mine. Purism or not.
 
Last edited:

AppZ.Zero

macrumors member
Nov 29, 2021
94
193
When updating do you have to do an iPadOS update, and then the macOS update, or are they the same?
If its really a different OS, of course both need to update.
But i doubt apple would implement it like that. Since both OS have the same base, it would be mire the frontend that changes, not more.
  • Do iPad apps stay in memory as they do now, continue to hold that memory, or do they shut down?
If it really would be dual boot, ofc they dont hold in memory. But as stated before, i dont believe apple would implement it that way.
    • Are they (the iPad/MacOS apps) connected in anyway when rebooting?
Why would they? Thats one of the main point, Mac OS Apps are much more capable than iOS Apps.
  • Would you have access to all data contained in those iPadOS apps?
Why not?

    • Would you need an iPad app and ALSO an Mac app for the same app, or would it be the same (and what difference would you see depending on what boot you are in)?
Ofc since these are ddiferent apps. Again the main argument for a real OS on iPads.
  • Would there be a nightmare in conflicts between those apps?
why?
  • Would there be additional costs for the consumer as most developers charge for each and iPad/Mac/iPhone app even though under your proposal, they would be on the same device.
Why would they do that? Do you pay Microsoft for iPad Apps AND mac os Apps?
    • So many questions that would cause this to be a nightmare. Easy to say, a lot less easy to implement.
Yeah, if you assume the worst integration and the worst case in your scenario, there sure would be some nightmare stuff. But again, why are you assuming this to be imolemented so bad?
 

artifex

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2003
347
5
You’re not able to plug a 4TB SSD into an iPad? I’ll pm you a link to a usb c cable.
That's not a proper reframing of the question. If I have to plug a 4TB SSD into the 4TB iPad, copy files to it, then plug the SSD into my laptop or desktop in order to move the files across, that's an extra and very expensive step that shouldn't be needed.

If you really don't understand the concept: think of it like target display mode on older iMacs, but for the storage space. (Though technically MTP isn't straight passthrough, since the host is still working and can hide stuff.)
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,396
5,257
I've tried for years to get Surface Pro (still have my Surface Pro 1) to work as a tablet for media consumption but the Windows ecosystem lacks a lot of tablet apps which offer better touch interface and media downloads.

Now with Windows 11, they've even gotten rid of any way to switch to desktop mode, so if I plug in my Surface Pro 9 to a monitor and dock with its own keyboard/mouse, the Surface still thinks it's in tablet mode until I connect the Surface keyboard. The Windows 11 swipe-in from left annoys me to no end as they think showing me MSN links is useful. In Windows 10 that swipe was useful in touch mode to switch between apps. Killing the Android subsystem was the end of the experiment for me.

Fair enough, I think we all use our devices differently. I rather like the changes MS has made and don't feel like I need separate modes for desktop and tablet, but then again I've never really had much of an issue with Windows on a tablet, probably because I've been using it in a touch paradigm for decades now all the way back to the original Windows on a tablet in the early 2000s which were truly horrible.

Edit: Just reread, I can still change automatic tablet mode and I'm on the latest Win11, under personalization-taskbar-taskbar behaviors you can turn on/off the taskbar touch mode. But I do see where they force tablet mode if it's disconnected, which is terrible and IMO endemic of the dumbification of computers which Apple has pioneered with the iPads. Mine, however, properly changes out of tablet mode when I dock it so I'm not sure on your situation. It's not a huge change, just some UI elements get slightly larger for the most part.

The swipe in is also a step down from how it used to be, they are rumored to be taking away the forced MSN links from what I understand. I also am bummed about Android, but that is 1000% Google's fault for not letting MS use their Play store. Amazon should could not shoulder the financial burden alone, and their store wasn't enough to drive business to them. Personally I have never really had much issue finding an alternative to an iOS app for Windows, but of course that depends on your specific use case and everyone is different, personally I need programs more than apps and find both the functionality and UI of programs to be much better than how they are often dumbed down in apps.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,396
5,257
On the contrary, I enjoy the iPad, and may even be considered an iPad purist (whatever that is). I am certainly not threatened (weird term to use) by having a dual boot mode. But let's discuss... Despite you believing I don't value others opinions, I would like to hear yours.

I appreciate your comment "It is NOT perfect as it is for those of us who really USE our iPads for more than browsing and watching Apple TV"

Firstly, there is no "perfect" machine for everyone. And to put someone down who does use it only for TV and browsing is disingenuous and frankly, pretty elitist. Notwithstanding, I think I was pretty much an iPad power-user a a couple of years ago and only my recent retirement has reduced that.

As an example: As a CSI, Workflow is key. I used it daily to record notes, draw sketches, plans using the pencil and also with the LiDAR. I would use the GPS to record a (reasonably) accurate location for bodies located in scrubland, or blood trails etc. I was able to do this because the OS and the apps enable this. I would take a photo, mark it up or add measurements to it and immediately send it to investigators. I don’t want to try and find <shift/option/3> to take a screen shot (which I regularly used for recording specific locations on Maps). And we really don't need 3 different ways to do a screenshot. How is that improving usability?

As soon as I retired a couple of years ago, I continued to use it to draw house plans for realestate and used it for 360° Panorama/Virtual Tour photography (with Ricoh 360° camera) and send it all to Matterport or other format etc. So let’s not pretend it isn’t already a very capable device in its current form outside of TV and browsing. All of this is possible because of iPadOS. I simply cannot do Matterport live captures on a Mac in any form (dual boot or not).

Sure, you could dual boot but then lose the autonomy, but mainly the simplicity that the iPad OS provides. A MacOS will simply not do what I want. I can vouch for that given we also had Panasonic Toughbooks that are windows laptops with detachable keyboards. A really useful and bullet proof device. With no serious discernible or practical difference between laptop OS‘s these days, I can tell you that people (Detectives/Investigators, other CSI's etc) loved the speed and versatility that I provided, over those who didn't use an iPad. I simply could not do what I wanted with a PC of any persuasion. Partly because the quality of the screen, but mainly because of the apps and the way they work with iPadOS. OMG, trying to mark up images on a touch screen laptop or draw a house plan (was a horrible experience).

An argument against this is that iPad Apps could be converted/ported directly over to Mac OS, but the reality is that in practice, they are different and modification, which are usually downgrades always follow with that conversion. iPad apps on the MacOS apps are rarely as good as they are on an iPad.

The only thing I would add, is if you want a PC experience with an iPad, you can still use apps that are designed to be used with a keyboard, mouse, trackpad etc that can already be connected. What is wrong with that?

But bypassing my experiences outlined above. What can you NOT do on the iPad now that only a dual boot iPad would provide?

But you are talking dual-boot. Practical Questions for your perfect machine.

What rules would you have when booting into the MacOS variant?​
  • When updating do you have to do an iPadOS update, and then the macOS update, or are they the same?
  • Do iPad apps stay in memory as they do now, continue to hold that memory, or do they shut down?
What are the limitations going between both OS's​
  • Are they (the iPad/MacOS apps) connected in anyway when rebooting?
  • Would you have access to all data contained in those iPadOS apps?
  • Would you need an iPad app and ALSO an Mac app for the same app, or would it be the same (and what difference would you see depending on what boot you are in)?
  • Would there be a nightmare in conflicts between those apps?
  • Would there be additional costs for the consumer as most developers charge for each and iPad/Mac/iPhone app even though under your proposal, they would be on the same device.
So many questions that would cause this to be a nightmare. Easy to say, a lot less easy to implement.

I reiterate, we all have different experiences and opinions, and yours is no more valuable than mine. Purism or not.

Meh, and I mean that without disrespect, Windows has proven you can have both paradigms. The MS store has plenty of "app-like" programs which give the simplicity of apps, although personally I've never really had an issue with programs and often find that the simplification apps bring actually makes things more complex. I think a good example of this is comparing something like the Microsoft Office Suite and their app versions vs the full programs, there are just a lot of functions missing or hidden behind submenu after submenu. But I'm a power user and totally understand that for a light user the app version might be better, everyone has a different use case scenario.

On your question about what MacOS might bring that the iPad doesn't, for me it's 1) legacy programs which might never get app form, 2) a full and robust file system, and 3) discrete user accounts. A distant 4) might be the ability to customize and change so much of the underlying OS, UI, and really anything.

I am not referring to you, but mainly directed at Apple brass, I find the argument against a MacOS iPad disingenuous at best and just plain inane at worst. It's simply a tactic to get consumers to purchase multiple hardware devices. If Microsoft was in the hardware business as deeply as Apple I'm sure they would have done the same thing, and actually have tried to release iPad like devices before which all failed badly. Worst case scenario, as a consumer, just don't buy the product you don't want.
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve09090

shadowboi

macrumors member
Feb 16, 2024
92
100
Unknown
Gotta be honest but this is totally not for me. I value tough devices and kinda tired of having to worry if my iPad is not bent. After all price is not cheap. If these 5mm were titanium and not aluminum I would have though about the devices, but considering how bendable current generation iPads are it feels too much. Also the OLED displays are probably PWM-controlled and this is totally unacceptable for me personally.

Also maybe it is just me, but it all feels...boring? Camera updates, more storage, larger screens, faster processor blah blah blah. Honestly I expected something really different. Yeah processor is faster but there are not many apps to unleash at very least M1 power, not even talking about M3. Games are almost extinct as a kind, last GTA was ported to iOS in 2012-something-ish. Storage is welcome for photographers and videomakers, but what is the point of fast USB-C then, especially when we take into account how castrated the Files app is and how cumbersome is the process of organizing files and folders.

I mean, it all makes the much-welcomed hardware upgrades nearly useless.
 

Darth Tulhu

macrumors 68020
Apr 10, 2019
2,175
3,585
This rumored announcement would be around the same time as the Surface Pro 10, with Snapdragon X and OLED display, running a proper desktop OS with a similar rumored price point.
A proper desktop OS on a tablet.

No thanks.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.