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Karma*Police

macrumors 68030
Jul 15, 2012
2,523
2,869
They are convinced many of these will cost them more money. The justification against it politically is usually that if the government manages things like educational or healthcare funding, there's no possibility that it would be done efficiently.
You’re spot on about the fact that gov’t is far less efficient than private enterprise, though I’d say it’s more about historical and real world outcomes than political justifications.

The great Thomas Sowell sums it up best…

“The government doesn't have any wealth of its own, except what it takes from taxpayers, whether individuals or businesses.”

“It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medications somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medications and a government bureaucracy.”

“It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.”

And since the gov’t can afford to make wrong decisions without consequences (like the postal service that loses billions every year that we taxpayers subsidize) they will never be more efficient than private entities that pay a steep price for making wrong/poor decisions… the gov’t will simply take more from individuals and businesses until they suck them dry and ultimately destroy the prosperity and wealth built by individuals and private corporations.
 

dwaite

macrumors 65816
Jun 11, 2008
1,239
1,019
I don't think that is possible to shut down the store and fire them. If that would happen, there is going to be a civil lawsuit from each employee. I don't think Apple would be happy about that. Similar to this lawsuit below.
From my (non lawyer) observations, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on individually for termination due to store closure.

The union would have standing to attempt to show it was done for retaliatory reasons due to unionization. Since Apple has a history of offering employees placement options, it would seem pretty easy to offer strong evidence of this one direction or the other.
 

dwaite

macrumors 65816
Jun 11, 2008
1,239
1,019
You’re spot on about the fact that gov’t is far less efficient than private enterprise, though I’d say it’s more about historical and real world outcomes than political justifications.
I didn't say they were less efficient, just what the argument is that is used to convince Americans that such changes are bad.

...that pay a steep price for making wrong/poor decisions… the gov’t will simply take more from individuals and businesses until they suck them dry and ultimately destroy the prosperity and wealth built by individuals and private corporations.
Excellent example, thanks
 

danny842003

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,889
2,179
From my (non lawyer) observations, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on individually for termination due to store closure.

The union would have standing to attempt to show it was done for retaliatory reasons due to unionization. Since Apple has a history of offering employees placement options, it would seem pretty easy to offer strong evidence of this one direction or the other.

Wouldn’t it be redundancy rather than termination? I don’t know about America but here redundancy tends to come with a nice pay out.
 

NervousFish2

macrumors 6502
Mar 23, 2014
340
633
I don't think that is possible to shut down the store and fire them. If that would happen, there is going to be a civil lawsuit from each employee. I don't think Apple would be happy about that. Similar to this lawsuit below.

Just to chime in here. It wouldn't be a lawsuit from each individual employee against Apple. It would be a lawsuit by the union against Apple in the NLRB.

 

xyz01

macrumors 6502
May 17, 2009
270
400
Oslo, Norway
unionization = more expensive products

i don't mind paying for better worker pay, but if you're going to complain why the next iPhone is $100 more expensive, this is why

apple passes the cost onto consumers. don't like it? don't buy it. it's very simple
Apple doesn't pass costs onto consumers.

In markets where the price to consumers are mostly based on costs, absolutely - but Apple's prices are based on value to the consumer and the competitive landscape. In other words: if they thought they could increase prices by $100, they'd do it without regard to if their own costs increased or decreased.
 

DownUnderDan

macrumors 6502
Apr 19, 2018
373
516
Hobart Australia
unionization = more expensive products

i don't mind paying for better worker pay, but if you're going to complain why the next iPhone is $100 more expensive, this is why

apple passes the cost onto consumers. don't like it? don't buy it. it's very simple
They already pass on executive bonuses and I don't see the outcry about that, so yeah, add some money for the people who actually do the work at the coalface.
 

dwaite

macrumors 65816
Jun 11, 2008
1,239
1,019
Wouldn’t it be redundancy rather than termination? I don’t know about America but here redundancy tends to come with a nice pay out.
It depends an awful lot on the particular state.

Most of the US operates under at-will employment, which means the employee is under no obligation to work for the employer, and the employer has no obligation to keep the employee on - and can terminate them at any time, without cause. The lack of given cause doesn't mean that certain motivations, such as discrimination, are legal - which would be why an employee might sue under claims of evidence that those were the motivations.

Union laws are also per state and nationally set, and I'm a lot less clear on the separation between employee rights, union rights, and the powers of the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB, mentioned in the article). For instance, many states may say that union membership cannot be mandatory for employees - which both gives the employees more power to decide whether they think the union is properly representing their interests, and reduces the collective bargaining power of the union.

Not speaking to specifics of this particular case but rather proposing a hypothetical - one could see how matching union-negotiated salaries as well as adding on additional non-negotiated benefits like educational compensation might be used to attempt to severely weaken the union, especially in a trade with a high degree of turnover like retail. I do not know if Maryland has such union membership optionality rules, nor how the NLRB regulates such things.

There are laws about mass terminations as well - I seem to remember as an example that California has lower limits than the federal rules, requiring a certain number of notice if it is more than 50 employees or 1%. Since you usually aren't going to tell someone they are going to be fired and still let them come in, this effectively becomes a minimum amount of severance offered to workers in a layoff.

We have gained regulatory groups like OSHA to set standards/regulations for workplace safety and sanitary conditions, mandating breaks, and a federally set minimum wage. Unions seem to still seem to attempt to justify themselves in public opinion by saying they will fix unfair scheduling or discriminatory pay practices and the like, but generally these federal laws mean that union collective bargaining is usually being employed to negotiate better compensation rather than solving significant working condition issues.

That said, OSHA rules are still pretty broad, and an appropriate trade union may better represent and establish what are healthy working conditions for particular tasks/environments. I'm not sure the Maryland store, organized under the "International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers", truly is getting that benefit however.
 

NervousFish2

macrumors 6502
Mar 23, 2014
340
633
I know. I just can't stand unions. In my experience it just creates lazy workers because they know it's next to impossible to be fired. They create this weird cult like environment (calling each other "brother", ect.). And the union dues end up just buying the union bosses nice cars, houses, etc. and workers end up only seeing a small fraction at best coming back to them from what they put in. It's like a ponzi scheme.

Then just the very idea that some peon that is doing a job that literally anyone off the street can do is telling someone that had the talent, vision, money, and blood sweat and tears how they HAVE to run their company is just complete BS.

We have laws to protect workers. If any laws are being broken, then take that up with the labour board. Don't like the benefits, pay, etc. at your job? That sucks, but you're welcome to go find another one that offers what you need.
Respectfully, there are some strange claims going on in your comment here. First, look at the recent successes of Amazon workers to form a union. THEY created their own union, and the dues are not going to a national body or buying anyone fancy cars.

Second, that all said, Amazon workers are limited by the small scale of their union. If they really want to change things, they will need to form a bigger, scaled union. And for that they will need to resources of a larger national union.

Which brings me a third point: why do you think we have laws to protect workers? Where did these laws come from? The answer historically is very simple. The laws were created because people formed unions to fight for those laws. If no unions had ever existed, children would still be working in coal mines and there would be no such thing as the weekend.
 

Bokito

macrumors 6502
May 29, 2007
303
1,177
Netherlands
It doesn't matter if they are a trillion dollar company or a thousand dollar company. They are entitled to what the law says they are entitled to, and no one has accused Apple of breaking any laws here. If their current job is not providing what they want, they are welcome to go and try and find another one that does. Not whine and pout and stomp their feet like children and refusing to come into work for not getting what they want. it's pathetic.

This is typical American thinking. Not everybody is able to just pick a job elsewhere and go where they choose. And yes, Apple is working inside the law's borders, but that doesn't mean they should treat some employees different over others. Apple is all in favor about equality, but apparently when it comes down to actual equality, they just give employees a big middle finger. This is about employees at the lower end of the market. If you're an engineer and go elsewhere sure you can pick and choose where you want to earn > $ 100000 a year. These employees can't do that and Apple should be ashamed of themselves.

In the Netherlands a lot of employers pay for their employees' union fees and everybody is treated equally, if you're a union member or not.

There is a moral line here and for a company that's bragging about "being green" and "treating everybody equal", they should get their head of their ass and actually start treating people equal, because they don't. For a trilion dollar company that is a shame.
 

Luis Ortega

macrumors 65816
May 10, 2007
1,149
335
unionization = more expensive products

i don't mind paying for better worker pay, but if you're going to complain why the next iPhone is $100 more expensive, this is why

apple passes the cost onto consumers. don't like it? don't buy it. it's very simple
Lol…it will be more expensive no matter what, and the fanboys will keep buying new phones each year just for bragging rights.
 

Unami

macrumors 65816
Jul 27, 2010
1,366
1,570
Austria
The thing is: Such tactics are one of the reasons why I want to buy less from apple. Otoh, high prices are another factor. If a lot of people reduce their spending on apple products because of this, prices will rise and even less people will buy from them...

Either way, some say, capitalism is voting with your wallet. I'm just not sure that they'd get the message or just attribute falling sales to some other factors (which are undoubtedly there as well)
 
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geartau

Suspended
Jun 5, 2022
352
479
Or maybe it's continued record profits, executive compensation, fancy new buildings, and payments to lobbyists to protect their walled garden through legislation as much as possible?
"Hey shareholders, we're not going to aim for record profits"
"Hey Johny Srouji, where are you going? We need you to design M3 but with lower pay!"
"Spaceship? Nah, you new recruits get to engineer in the basement!"
"Lobbyist? Nah, we're going to let Google/Facebook/Netflix dictate our future"

You're talking as if this is all optional and the board isn't going to fire Tim if he doesn't follow on through for shareholders.

The incremental cost increase for retail employees *pales* in comparison to the take home cash, stock, and perks compensation offered to executives of most companies, and Apple is no exception.
Because you need to keep the talent. Like it or not, Tim has grown the company. How can you replace someone like Johny Srouji that easily for running a great team designing the chips? Meanwhile, retail staff are highly replacable.

Saying "just pay execs less" isn't really an option.
 
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geartau

Suspended
Jun 5, 2022
352
479
Apple doesn't pass costs onto consumers.

In markets where the price to consumers are mostly based on costs, absolutely - but Apple's prices are based on value to the consumer and the competitive landscape. In other words: if they thought they could increase prices by $100, they'd do it without regard to if their own costs increased or decreased.

Price tag isn't the only thing looked at. Features that are included/supported/excluded are looked at too. Customer wouldn't have known that Apple had planned for 5 years of software updates for the iPhone 14. Apple could shave 1 year off and blame "new features require new hardware" when the time comes, for example.
 
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geartau

Suspended
Jun 5, 2022
352
479
They already pass on executive bonuses and I don't see the outcry about that, so yeah, add some money for the people who actually do the work at the coalface.
yet, people are already complaining about the huge price difference in outside of USA for iPhone 14.
 

danny842003

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,889
2,179
This is typical American thinking. Not everybody is able to just pick a job elsewhere and go where they choose. And yes, Apple is working inside the law's borders, but that doesn't mean they should treat some employees different over others. Apple is all in favor about equality, but apparently when it comes down to actual equality, they just give employees a big middle finger. This is about employees at the lower end of the market. If you're an engineer and go elsewhere sure you can pick and choose where you want to earn > $ 100000 a year. These employees can't do that and Apple should be ashamed of themselves.

In the Netherlands a lot of employers pay for their employees' union fees and everybody is treated equally, if you're a union member or not.

There is a moral line here and for a company that's bragging about "being green" and "treating everybody equal", they should get their head of their ass and actually start treating people equal, because they don't. For a trilion dollar company that is a shame.

I disagree the staff members have decided to be treated differently not apple.
I’m also very pro union, I just don’t see that apple have done anything wrong. I also don’t see that the union shouldn’t push to get these benefits but they need to work for their dues on it.
To be honest seems like a storm in a tea cup
 
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idrewuk

macrumors regular
Aug 15, 2008
209
120
So they wanted to unionise. They did it. They now have to negotate terms through the union, so they don’t automatically get the benefits Apple can give or take without that negotiation.

Sounds to me like they want their cake and eat it. Well, too bad.
 

black_knight

macrumors 6502
Jan 2, 2021
268
347
I know. I just can't stand unions. In my experience it just creates lazy workers because they know it's next to impossible to be fired. They create this weird cult like environment (calling each other "brother", ect.). And the union dues end up just buying the union bosses nice cars, houses, etc. and workers end up only seeing a small fraction at best coming back to them from what they put in. It's like a ponzi scheme.

Then just the very idea that some peon that is doing a job that literally anyone off the street can do is telling someone that had the talent, vision, money, and blood sweat and tears how they HAVE to run their company is just complete BS.

We have laws to protect workers. If any laws are being broken, then take that up with the labour board. Don't like the benefits, pay, etc. at your job? That sucks, but you're welcome to go find another one that offers what you need.
You are so wrong on so many levels it’s laughable. “Laws to protect workers,” “take it up with the labor board,” “lazy workers can’t be fired.”

These myths as stated above, folks, are why the erosion of the middle class has exponentially accelerated. Hand over all of your bargaining power to a large entity whose number one priority is profits over everything else. What could possibly go wrong?
 
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