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tny

macrumors 6502
Jun 3, 2003
436
81
Washington, DC
They are easily expendable if the state were not bound to unions.

I remember when air traffic controllers thought they were indispensable too. Then Reagan fired them all.
In this labor market? It's not like Tim Cook can just order the Air Force and the National Guard to scab at the Apple Store.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,359
9,710
Columbus, OH
“The current welfare system provides such a high level of benefits that it acts as a disincentive for work. Welfare currently pays more than a minimum‐wage job in 35 states, even after accounting for the Earned Income Tax Credit, and in 13 states it pays more than $15 per hour. If Congress and state legislatures are serious about reducing welfare dependence and rewarding work, they should consider strengthening welfare work requirements, removing exemptions, and narrowing the definition of work. Moreover, states should consider ways to shrink the gap between the value of welfare and work by reducing current benefit levels and tightening eligibility requirements.”

So the solution to whatever you perceive the problem to be is to the lower benefit value to less than minimum wage, which itself can’t cover cost of living anywhere. Late stage capitalism is just as dystopian as communism.
 

pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,753
1,450
New York City, NY
In this labor market? It's not like Tim Cook can just order the Air Force and the National Guard to scab at the Apple Store.

I agree with Powell in his assessment that the labor market is "unsustainably hot".

And companies have already started to announce hiring freezes.
 

maxoakland

macrumors 6502a
Oct 6, 2021
745
1,069
Not true. Can you pull first party research data on Eastern European workers who moved to the UK - in the EU - and then stopped working?

It put a drain on the UK and the system.

No Republicans there. But there was Brexit.

Did that actually happen? Because a lot of right wingers *said* it happened but they do that no matter what
 

Maximara

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2008
1,707
908
Companies ship jobs overseas because it's cheaper to do so. If you take anything away from this post, let it be this.

As long as we have labor laws and safety regulations in the USA, cost of labor in the USA will always be greater than that of places that don't have those protections.

That's really all there is to it.

What then is the solution? Should we do away with labor laws and safety regulations? Labor is cheaper in China, Vietnam, Mexico etc. because workers there can be exploited. There is no OSHA, no child labor laws, no worker protections, no benefits.

Is that what you want for Americans?
For a good view of what that cesspool was like read The Jungle or Midnight is a Place. The crunch mode (time) programers go through is a 21st century sweatshop produced mainly because some Pointy Haired Boss got a bee in their bonnet about some 'so cool we must have' feature or had to meet some arbitrary must ship by date. More over it does not work because at best you burn out your programmers and ship a buggy mess.
 
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Haust

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2011
262
332
It's not so much that the companies are ripping off the lower level employees, so much as severely under-valuing their contributions and severely over-valuing the contributions of the top level executives.

In 2020 time cook was paid just under $100 million.That's 1666 times my pay. That's just insane on so many levels I don't know where to start.
Is is critial to the company? maybe. I mean there's a succession plan in place, I'm sure for when he retires. Someone else CAN be CEO of Apple. Does he deserve to make well over my salary? Every. Single. Day?
I think no. CEO pay is whack. I read about engineers at Apple getting bonuses that would pay for my house. It's an insult to the work I do for Apple that there's this much pay disparity.
No one is forcing anyone to work at Apple. Each employee is worth exactly what they are willing to accept in exchange for that work. If that person thinks that they deserve to earn more, then it’s on them to ask for it or perhaps hopefully the company will recognize the contribution and pay that person more. But, the company, no matter how rich they are, is under no obligation to pay their employees a dividend of their profits. Again, you are only worth what you are willing to accept. Unions unravel this scenario by forcing the company to not treat employees as individuals, but rather as groups with the middle-man union bosses dictating benefits with threats. It sets up a hostile working environment between all those involved. Eventually the demands of the unions undermine the profitability of the company as a whole and then it’s just a matter of time before it all falls apart.
 

Haust

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2011
262
332
That's some very nice corporate drivel you've regurgitated there. The actual fact is unions raise wages for everyone in society. Once workers see unionized workers getting better pay, they'll unionize too. In time, unionization raises wages for everyone. Maybe read a history book or something. Apple can afford to pay employees $30 an hour, and they should.
You are only worth what you are willing to accept in exchange for your work. That’s all you are worth no matter how rich the company you work for is. Feel free to start up your own company and pay your employees as a whole an equal dividend of your profit. Good luck!
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
No one is forcing anyone to work at Apple. Each employee is worth exactly what they are willing to accept in exchange for that work. If that person thinks that they deserve to earn more, then it’s on them to ask for it or perhaps hopefully the company will recognize the contribution and pay that person more. But, the company, no matter how rich they are, is under no obligation to pay their employees a dividend of their profits. Again, you are only worth what you are willing to accept. Unions unravel this scenario by forcing the company to not treat employees as individuals, but rather as groups with the middle-man union bosses dictating benefits with threats. It sets up a hostile working environment between all those involved. Eventually the demands of the unions undermine the profitability of the company as a whole and then it’s just a matter of time before it all falls apart.
That’s a ridiculously one-sided view how things work.

When business grow and merge and consolidate to eliminate competition for jobs, we call them clever. When workers do the same thing, we call them greedy.

Walmart comes to town and eliminates dozens of business that compete for workers. Without competition, the free market doesn’t work. Walmart can now just say take it or leave it.
 
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Haust

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2011
262
332
That’s a ridiculously one-sided view how things work.

When business grow and merge and consolidate to eliminate competition for jobs, we call them clever. When workers do the same thing, we call them greedy.

Walmart comes to town and eliminates dozens of business that compete for workers. Without competition, the free market doesn’t work. Walmart can now just say take it or leave it.
You’re welcome to start your own company and pay your employees what they think they deserve. Good luck!
 
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avz

macrumors 68000
Oct 7, 2018
1,786
1,866
Stalingrad, Russia
You’re welcome to start your own company and pay your employees what they think they deserve. Good luck!
Likewise you are welcome NOT to start your own company and become a "smart" employee who knows how to be "indispensable" and only accept a big paycheck from the employer.
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,753
1,450
New York City, NY
Likewise you are welcome NOT to start your own company and become a "smart" employee who knows how to be "indispensable" and only accept a big paycheck from the employer.

Some employees are more productive, some less productive.

Some go the extra mile, others don't.

Not all workers are the same. Why should they all be compensated in the same way?

If all are compensated the same way, where is the incentive to go the extra mile?
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
You’re welcome to start your own company and pay your employees what they think they deserve. Good luck!
Likewise you are welcome NOT to start your own company and become a "smart" employee who knows how to be "indispensable" and only accept a big paycheck from the employer.

And I’m welcome to join a union and negotiate a higher salary.
 

avz

macrumors 68000
Oct 7, 2018
1,786
1,866
Stalingrad, Russia
Some employees are more productive, some less productive.

Some go the extra mile, others don't.

Not all workers are the same. Why should they all be compensated in the same way?

If all are compensated the same way, where is the incentive to go the extra mile?
I don't think you understand how the power game is being played.

"Going an extra mile" is not necessary going to make you indispensable. But it can definitely make you a "good loser".
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,753
1,450
New York City, NY
I don't think you understand how the power game is being played.

"Going an extra mile" is not necessary going to make you indispensable. But it can definitely make you a "good loser".

Going the extra mile won't help those who are under a collective bargaining agreement.
 
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Haust

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2011
262
332
And I’m welcome to join a union and negotiate a higher salary.
It won’t be you negotiating anything. It will be union bosses, who you will be paying, who will also be taking a cut of what they force the company to give to you. There is always an underlying hatred among all involved whenever a union is in place in a company. It will make Apple rot from within. Large scale unions within Apple will mark the downward turn for them.
 

Maximara

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2008
1,707
908
It won’t be you negotiating anything. It will be union bosses, who you will be paying, who will also be taking a cut of what they force the company to give to you. There is always an underlying hatred among all involved whenever a union is in place in a company. It will make Apple rot from within. Large scale unions within Apple will mark the downward turn for them.
The only reason a union gets formed is if the employees are treated like garbage to begin with. The only one who hates a union is overly greedy management. That is why computer game companies are so afraid of unions - the conditions many games are made are the 21st century version of The Jungle or Midnight is a Place. Want to cut costs? Get rid of all those MBAs whose practical business knowledge is rising to zero (my late mother called that degree Moron of Business Administration for a reason) and odds are one will have more than enough money to pay for the wage increases.
 
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Maximara

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2008
1,707
908
What did this Japanese company do?
Read the original comment this was in reply to - "If/when companies loses money, will they volunteer to take pay cuts?" Satoru Iwata (then CEO of Nintendo) took a 50% pay cut ergo Nintendo (or at lease the CEO) volunteered to take a pay cut because his company was losing money at that time.

Show me one company where the rank and file employees 'gave back the money they earned' (which is not the same as a pay cut as they already paid tax on the money).
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,753
1,450
New York City, NY
Read the original comment this was in reply to - "If/when companies loses money, will they volunteer to take pay cuts?" Satoru Iwata (then CEO of Nintendo) took a 50% pay cut ergo Nintendo (or at lease the CEO) volunteered to take a pay cut because his company was losing money at that time.

And Steve Jobs was paid $1.

What does that have to do with the low level employees?
 

Maximara

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2008
1,707
908
And Steve Jobs was paid $1.

What does that have to do with the low level employees?
You're goalpost moving to salvage a poorly thought out premise. Why should the lower employees take a pay cut/send money back when the biggest single money drain is those higher up the pay scale or a host of middle men that when you really sit down the company does not need?
 
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pastrychef

macrumors 601
Sep 15, 2006
4,753
1,450
New York City, NY
Your goalpost moving to salvage a poorly thought out premise. Why should the lower employees take a pay cut/send money back when the biggest single money drain is those higher up the pay scale or a host of middle men that when you really sit down the company does not need?

They shouldn't. Just like how they shouldn't expect more pay if/when the companies do well.
 
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