Apple TV 4K does not support 24.000fps playback

[palmerc]

Surely that all depends on if your TV accepts 24Hz?
When I put a Blu-ray film in my player my Panasonic auto switches and shows it’s playing in 24Hz so setting the ATV to output the same for films makes sense doesn’t it.

If the film is encoded at 24Hz, yes. However, that isn't the point. 24Hz refers to the input frequency. And I believe he was referring to the notion that the hardware ultimately renders at a fixed refresh rate of 60Hz to 120Hz in many cases.

You might want to read through this CNet article on the truth about 4K refresh rates. The article is from 2015 so there have been new models released, but you'd need to get the details on that model.

You should also read the more comprehensive discussion here.

 

[geesus]

What is the point in outputting 24Hz, when most TVs will frame convert it to 120Hz or 60Hz anyway?

Setting my ATV to a 60Hz output, judder performance is the same as 24Hz.(In other words, great). I think where the problem may arise is when setting to 50Hz, but there is really no reason for that unless using an European streaming App such as BBC iplayer.

24 into 60 doesn't divide exactly, so you are forcing film material out at 60Hz resulting in skipped frames. You avoid 3:2 pulldown.

 

[palmerc]

24 into 60 doesn't divide exactly, so you are forcing film material out at 60Hz resulting in skipped frames. You avoid 3:2 pulldown.

Skipped frames? It would be good to review 3:2 pulldown the process by which the conversion would occur.

 

[Patrick Turner]

24 into 60 doesn't divide exactly, so you are forcing film material out at 60Hz resulting in skipped frames. You avoid 3:2 pulldown.

With the processing power of the A10x, there is no reason why the ATV 4K can't implement the digital version of the 3:2 pull-down perfectly. From my testing so far, they have.

60Hz output with 24Hz content has been perfect for me.

 

[geesus]

Skipped frames? It would be good to review 3:2 pulldown the process by which the conversion would occur.

Yeah you can get jittery playback when outputting native 24Hz material at 60. The new ATV may very well be able to handle the process, but it's even better to not need do it at all, hence 24Hz output is a great addition.

 

[Patrick Turner]

Yeah you can get jittery playback when outputting native 24Hz material at 60. The new ATV may very well be able to handle the process, but it's even better to not need do it at all, hence 24Hz output is a great addition.

If the A10x can handle the 3:2 pulldown conversion from 24Hz to 60Hz perfectly and save customers the pain of flickers and blinks associated with mode switches, why would that be such a bad idea as you are making it out to be?

 

[andrewstirling]

If the A10x can handle the 3:2 pulldown conversion from 24Hz to 60Hz perfectly and save customers the pain of flickers and blinks associated with mode switches, why would that be a bad idea?

I’m sorry but you’re simply not understanding. People can see 3:2 pulldown. It’s hardly a new technique and I would be beyond stunned if the Apple TV didn’t implement it. Im also confident the previous Apple TV implemented that and every version prior to that. What current TVs can now do is reverse pulldown and retrieve a 24fps signal from the 60hz source. That’s not something the Apple TV can do when playing iTunes as it can only be done at the receiving end. And for what it’s worth, I can absolutely see a noticeable difference when switching between 24hz and 60hz output on the Apple TV. Some people don’t notice it but others do.

People are complaining about these things because they can see:

1) the poor SDR to HDR conversion
2) The poorly upscaled 1080p images and;
3) The judder caused by 3:2 pulldown.

Because of these things, people are manually switching modes depending on content. Personally I had intended to get rid of my shield TV but now I’m going to keep it and just use the Apple TV for 4k hdr iTunes content. The reason I’m not selling the shield is because of the decisions Apple have made and the fact that I’m not prepared to suffer a loss in quality when playing movies.

 

[xsmett]

Well, there are two groups of people.

1. People who loves digital conversion
- prefer 3:2 pulldown with 60hz setting on Apple TV
- prefer high, unnatural contrast coming with the sdr to hdr conversion. Turn on hdr on sdr content.
- usually put motion interpolation on high settings for having no motion blur at all
- loves the soap opera effect

2. People who wants to have the native look of a movie
- prefer 24p native framerate with 24hz setting in Apple TV
- prefer the natural look, even the contrast and colors are not poppig out of the picture that way. Turn off hdr on sdr content.
- usually put motion interpolation on minimal settings or turning it off
- hate the soap opera effect

I forgot group three, people who loves everything Apple does and forget about their own preferences, just to be on Apples side.

 

[Patrick Turner]

Well, there are two groups of people.

1. People who loves digital conversion
- prefer 3:2 pulldown with 60hz setting on Apple TV
- prefer high, unnatural contrast coming with the sdr to hdr conversion. Turn on hdr on sdr content.
- usually put motion interpolation on high settings for having no motion blur at all
- loves the soap opera effect

2. People who wants to have the native look of a movie
- prefer 24p native framerate with 24hz setting in Apple TV
- prefer the natural look, even the contrast and colors are not poppig out of the picture that way. Turn off hdr on sdr content.
- usually put motion interpolation on minimal settings or turning it off
- hate the soap opera effect

I forgot group three, people who loves everything Apple does and forget about their own preferences, just to be on Apples side.

It should be no secret that Apple products are meant for Group three.

Thanks.

 

[vipergts2207]

The statement "those who care about the quality of their video" is elitist.

I think you're reading too much into my post.

The idea that each and every setting should be artisinally selected and every media purchase hand curated is beyond elitist it is ridiculous. You have taken consumerism and your choices to be a reflection.

Jesus, now I know you're reading too much into my post.

While you might think that there is one true way to watch video, most people care about quality to the extent that it doesn't require spending excessive amounts of time and energy getting it right. They want to be moving toward a better experience, not necessarily important to get the absolute best experience available at any given time.

That said, I have spent time calibrating my TV.

Mapping SDR to HDR is going to lead to incorrect colors, not least of all because you must make simplifying assumptions. Still a 10-bit color scheme can map every color in 8-bit color, so it can achieve good enough for most, but for the person that is willing to invest time and energy in calibration... you're going to be unhappy.

My point is that anyone converting their SDR content into HDR with the ATV is getting an objectively poor picture. Like you said, the remapping will lead to incorrect colors, among other things. If you like messed up colors and contrast, that's fine. Some people, perhaps even yourself, also like 'soap opera effect'. However, I'm not sure why you wasted your time calibrating your TV just to screw it up by converting the dynamic range. Also, getting your TV to display content correctly takes minimal time and energy. All it takes is about 30 minutes and a willingness to not turn on every contrast demolishing, color blowout, and motion destroying setting under the sun that comes with the TV or source device.

 

[palmerc]

I think you're reading too much into my post.



Jesus, now I know you're reading too much into my post.



My point is anyone converting their SDR content into HDR with the ATV is getting an objectively poor picture. Like you said, the remapping will lead to incorrect colors, among other things. Not sure why you wasted your time calibrating your TV just to screw it up by converting the dynamic range. Also, getting your TV to display content correctly takes minimal time and energy.

And let me say, I think you're right and I'm not trying to pick a fight. If you have two TVs side-by-side or you know what to look for, you can objectively say that one is better than the other. Nor am I suggesting that I wouldn't do calibration.

I'm trying, rather unsuccessfully, to point out that most people are not going to do this. They buy whats on sale, get the box home, put it on the media centre/wall and that's it. Apple has to operate on that premise. The original argument was whether or not Apple did a bad thing by not switching frequency dynamically. I said, no, and everything went from there. I also said, this problem would be resolved over the next years in an elegant way.

 

[vipergts2207]

And let me say, I think you're right and I'm not trying to pick a fight. If you have two TVs side-by-side or you know what to look for, you can objectively say that one is better than the other. Nor am I suggesting that I wouldn't do calibration.

I'm trying, rather unsuccessfully, to point out that most people are not going to do this. They buy whats on sale, get the box home, put it on the media centre/wall and that's it. Apple has to operate on that premise. The original argument was whether or not Apple did a bad thing by not switching frequency dynamically. I said, no, and everything went from there. I also said, this problem would be resolved over the next years in an elegant way.

I'd posit that most people aren't buying expensive Apple TVs. Most people are using the built-in TV apps, or buying much cheaper Fire TV, Roku, etc. sticks. The people buying the more expensive ATVs, nVidia Shields and the like are going to trend more toward A/V enthusiasts, the people who actually care about that stuff.

 

[andrewstirling]

I'd posit that most people aren't buying expensive Apple TVs. Most people are using the built-in TV apps, or buying much cheaper Fire TV, Roku, etc. sticks. The people buying the more expensive ATVs, nVidia Shields and the like are going to trend more toward A/V enthusiasts, the people who actually care about that stuff.

To be honest it’s just the same argument we hear time and time again from Apple fans in relation to the Apple TV. First it was ‘most people don’t want 1080p, you can’t see the difference anyway’. Then it was ‘omg the tv can do 1080p. Must buy!’

Then last gen it was, ‘who need 4k. Nobody owns a 4k tv’. Followed by ‘OMG 4k ruleeez’.

Now it’s, ‘the public don’t want auto switching. You can’t really see that the picture is blatantly wrong’

And all the while we keep hearing that Apple know what they’re doing and that they sell so much product. Except when it comes to the Apple TV........ they really don’t. Let’s be honest, the last gen was a bit of a disaster and was vastly outsold by cheaper, technically superior products (at least when it comes to movie playback).

This latest release, and its baffling design choices simply suggests that Apple really don’t understand the market. No bitstream of Hd audio, no Atmos at launch, forcing SDR to HDR, terrible upscaling and its inability to auto switch output modes. They’ve essentially crippled a box which is capable of so much. It’s just so incredibly frustrating. The box can pretty much do it all and has the potential to be the best media player available. Sadly it’s not even close to the shield TV (which also has faults) or my £100 Vero 4k.

To make matters worse, it has one of the best media playing apps ever written available for it (infuse). Unfortunately the developers are unable to display content as they would like because Apple won’t allow its developers to switch output modes.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yes, less compression is in theory better, but you likely won't notice the difference in anything that moves. The problem with any of this, is that it is difficult to make simplifying statements. It is also important to note that ATV isn't a Blu-ray Disc. Apple's approach (thus far) is to set your ATV to output the best your TV can handle and they'll do the right thing.
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I think you're simplifying the common case to an absurd extent. My central contention here is that some TVs will be OK while others won't. The market is a mixed bag and given Apple's tendencies they have tended to choose consistency over configurability. This has never pleased a small segment of the market, but it has tended to work out for most people. I think you're trying to take what are technical challenges or shortcomings and blow them up to be epic fails, but in reality, only a handful of people care and they should accept their opinion is fringe. For everyone else, watching a 4K movie on their Apple TV that is only 95% of its potential will be delightful.

Yes, I'm familiar with EDID.

so if you are familiar with EDID why do you then make up lies that you can't determine the capabilities? Yes lies, now you've confirmed you are familiar with EDID. I'm sorry palmerc, as I said if you like what you see then that is all that matters, but please don't try and make sense of it with techno babble that is simply not true...The Verge isn't the only one picking up on this. The respected AVForums have also noted this.

 

[high3r]

Another question to ask is, where do you get consumer-targeted UHD sources with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling? In theory, 4:2:2 is better than 4:2:0, indeed. But practically, when your source is 4:2:0 then it will not matter. AFAIK BDA has settled for 4:2:0 for UHD BD standard, so these will be the best quality consumer-level sources around.

When set to 60hz HDR then the Apple TV sends YCbCr 4:2:0 30bit 60hz (monitored via receiver) to my display. There's the option to switch it to 4:2:2 but then the signal becomes 24bit. However if I set it to 24hz HDR then it sends YCbCr 4:2:2 24bit 23hz so an 8-bit signal with no 4:2:0 option. I don't understand why it it's not able to send 10-bit on a lower refresh rate, perhaps a bug. When watching HDR my PC it sends RGB 36bit 23hz so there must be enough bandwidth.

 

[jasper1977]

I don't think I was unreasonable to believe what Craig Michaels, Apple's Senior Product Manager for AppleTV, says about the AppleTV.

What is "somewhat hilarious" to me is that Mr. Michaels doesn't seem to know his own product.

I was the one who received the reply from Craig Michaels regarding 24p on the new Apple TV 4K. I must note that my question about 24p was regarding native 1080p24 output on the Apple TV 4K, not 4K/24Hz, as I have a Pioneer Kuro plasma tv capable of displaying native 1080p24 content, not 4K, and the old Apple TV 4 (non 4K version) did not support 24p output.

I replied to his answer with the question if it will be possible to include 1080p24 output in a future firmware update. He replied me the following: "We do not comment on potential future features. Appreciate your understanding."

 

[Mac 128]

Surely that all depends on if your TV accepts 24Hz?
When I put a Blu-ray film in my player my Panasonic auto switches and shows it’s playing in 24Hz so setting the ATV to output the same for films makes sense doesn’t it.

I was the one who received the reply from Craig Michaels regarding 24p on the new Apple TV 4K. I must note that my question about 24p was regarding native 1080p24 output on the Apple TV 4K, not 4K/24Hz, as I have a Pioneer Kuro plasma tv capable of displaying native 1080p24 content, not 4K, and the old Apple TV 4 (non 4K version) did not support 24p output.

I replied to his answer with the question if it will be possible to include 1080p24 output in a future firmware update. He replied me the following: "We do not comment on potential future features. Appreciate your understanding."

That's a shame. I only just discovered that there's no 1080p 24Hz rate available for use with my Sony. 900E, which automatically shifts into the correct picture mode when it detects a 24Hz output. I'm having to use 4K SDR 24Hz mode in order for my TV to work properly, and bypass the superior up scaling abilities of the 900E.

It's bad enough I have to manually switch to the correct format (with 10-14 steps there and back), but even worse Apple doesn't support the most common movie format out there!

 

[geesus]

It's bad enough I have to manually switch to the correct format (with 10-14 steps there and back), but even worse Apple doesn't support the most common movie format out there!

They probably assume that most people will use a 4K media player at 4K resolution on a 4K TV. Are you sure your TV upscales content better? I don't see a lot of difference with mine.

 

[Novus John]

I've been watching tvs and shows for years on my macbook. Not once I've noticed a judder or anything like that. So, why should the ATV do that worse? Call me stupid, but I don't get it.

 

[andrewstirling]

I've been watching tvs and shows for years on my macbook. Not once I've noticed a judder or anything like that. So, why should the ATV do that worse? Call me stupid, but I don't get it.

Yeah....some people just don’t notice it. It is probably more noticeable on a bigger screen but you may not see the issue.

 

[bluraycinema]

Tvs and shows arent the problem, its movies on a big screen!

 

[cynics]

I know its not the "best" solution but many TV's are good at smoothing 24hz judder even from a 60hz source.

I believe with my Samsung TV it was by setting auto motion to custom and leaving sliders down.

Since most of my media was transcoded for iTunes and AppleTV I used 30fps. However I'm in the process of transcoding a movie at 24hz to see how bad it is and what I can do to improve it.

 

[brentsg]

I've been watching tvs and shows for years on my macbook. Not once I've noticed a judder or anything like that. So, why should the ATV do that worse? Call me stupid, but I don't get it.

Don't look for it, just be happy. You can't unsee it.

 

[Novus John]

Don't look for it, just be happy. You can't unsee it.

I have seen it during a few badly configured viewing experiences at a friend's house, in addition to reading about it in tv reviews. At my friends place, we couldn't understand how to properly configure the tv and vlc on the laptop, which played the film.

But on regular tvs, my macbook, netflix and such it's always been okay. Except once or twice when a rented film in itunes didn't want to play without glitches, skipped frames, and judder.

 

[andrewstirling]

Films will be displaying pull down judder if played at the wrong framerate. Doesn’t matter how well things are configured. It’s just that some people don’t notice it probably because they’re so conditioned to watching material that way.