Apple's Supply Chain Diversification Hitting Samsung's Chip Business Hard

[kdarling]

One other little news item I haven't seen covered by MR: Samsung has dropped their royalty payments to Microsoft, and Microsoft has now sued them. I can't imagine how this lawsuit will go well for Samsung.

Reading through the MS complaint, it looks like Samsung was paying MS royalties, and Nokia was paying Samsung royalties.

Then, after MS bought Nokia, the Nokia to Samsung royalties stopped, because MS claims that Nokia phones are now covered under previous Samsung-Microsoft cross licenses.

Samsung claims that's a breach of contract, and they're not paying until it all gets figured out.

So you think a bigger screen is an invention like "slide to unlock"?

The idea of slide to unlock was not invented by Apple. It's been invalidated due to prior art by courts all over the world. All they deserve is a design patent on their particular graphics.

Why are you in denial that Samsung stole, got caught stealing, was found guilty of stealing and owes apple almost a billion dollars for stealing?

Apple has lost patent trials recently as well, and owes just as much if not more in royalties and penalties to other companies.

Software patent trials are rarely about stealing. They're about coincidental development.

I don't get why so many just completely ignore this when talking about Samsung and try to say apple steals too.

Because such trials are often decided by the whim of mostly non-technical juries or judges. Moreover, afterwards some of the patents often end up invalidated.

The good news is that SCOTUS has recently dealt a blow to abstract software patents. Basically, just because you do something already known on a computer instead of by hand, it does not deserve a patent.

 

[FriednTested]

Except for the fact that we're talking about smartphone operating systems.....

While the conflicts you named are ages old and rooted in deep ideological and religious beliefs - specifically the Israeli/Palestinian conflict which has waged since the time of Abraham (thousands of years).

But that's neither here nor there. Keep the PRSI stuff out.

You go a little too far in the past... #

There was Abraham then there was Moses then Christ and lastly Mohammed... So the conflict can't possibly be that old... Moreover the people now Jews (followers of prophet Moses) were the slaves of the pharaoh a at that time... They became Jews after Moses arrived and rescued them...

Sorry for the OT... Just thought would share some history...

 

[Muscle Master]

Samsung needs to inject money into AMD to grab x86 market share.

That... Is the next best thing!

 

[Trapezoid]

You do realize that Apple has lost patent trials recently as well, and owes just as much if not more in royalties and penalties to other companies.

Of course. I've already stated that if apple steals they should pay too. Yours seems to be an argument of "well they did it too so ha"...mines is "don't steal."

Because such trials are decided by the whim of mostly non-technical juries or judges. Moreover, afterwards some of the patents often end up invalidated.

This is like saying murder convictions are invalid because juries are not comprised of criminal justice majors, lawyers and law enforcement officers. Juries look at evidence, and make conclusions based on evidence. What jury anywhere has a specialized group of SMEs at every trial? You're grasping at straws when you're saying the system is at fault.

The good news is that SCOTUS has recently dealt a blow to abstract software patents. Basically, just because you do something already known on a computer instead of by hand, it does not deserve a patent.

That is good news. Until it becomes law, you can't break the current laws. Samsung did. So did apple. Both paid and deservedly so. What's your argument again?

 

[jrswizzle]

EDIT: Moved to PM.

 

[Piggie]

Whilst I know, and can understand at some level the hatred shown towards Samsung by people who are very fond of Apple.

Please do not forget 2 very VERY important points.

1: Without Samsung the iPhone would not be anything like as good as it is now from a component quality standpoint.

2: Without people like Samsung PUSHING HARD to get their own customers, raising people's expectations, Apple would have little reason to push for large improvements in their own models.

Please don't be naive enough to think that any company such as Apple would try as hard as they can year on year to win customers without any competition from other manufacturers.

So as much as you may on the surface Hate Samsung. Remember in both ways Apple and the iPhone would be nothing and/or no where near as good without them.

 

[MartinAppleGuy]

Dude I love your avatar.

Thanks It's a cross between a Pac Man ghost and the new Finder icon that I made.

 

[SmileyBlast!]

Nice! Couldn't happen to a company with less ethics.

I don't know... There are some Pharmaceutical companies and some Weapons tech. companies that are less ethical..

 

[GuitarDTO]

Whilst I know, and can understand at some level the hatred shown towards Samsung by people who are very fond of Apple.

Please do not forget 2 very VERY important points.

1: Without Samsung the iPhone would not be anything like as good as it is now from a component quality standpoint.

2: Without people like Samsung PUSHING HARD to get their own customers, raising people's expectations, Apple would have little reason to push for large improvements in their own models.

Please don't be naive enough to think that any company such as Apple would try as hard as they can year on year to win customers without any competition from other manufacturers.

So as much as you may on the surface Hate Samsung. Remember in both ways Apple and the iPhone would be nothing and/or no where near as good without them.

Shhhhh. You are using Logic. Samsung lover!

 

[newyorkone]

blind arrogance: the gift that keeps on giving

 

[Gasu E.]

You've got to be kidding me with this fanboy BS. You don't enjoy competition that clearly benefits the consumer? Apple doesn't "borrow" ideas from competition? (I mean this is one of the exact reasons so many Android fans despise Apple as a company, the perception of copying others). When you marvel at your new "large" iPhone you can thank Samsung for making it mainstream.

100% right on. I'm the biggest Apple fan there is; but there is no way Apple would be developing bigger screens, or allowing flexible keyboards, if some other company didn't go out there first and prove that there was huge consumer demand for these.

 

[cdmoore74]

If Samsung dies tonight the true winner is still Android. What is Apple going to do when cheap Chinese flagships appear that are half the cost yet are just as feature packed as iPhone or Galaxy?
I see a common enemy for both Apple and Samsung. But the clear winner will be Google and Android user's. Remember that article from a few weeks ago that had Samsung losing market share but Android gaining; it's already starting to happen.
You guys need to stop pretending that Samsung is the only Android player in town. Android is like bittorrent; one file on 100's of individual computers that can't be stopped.

 

[MvdM]

That's good news.

 

[Iconoclysm]

What a good portion of people here don't understand is that Samsung is good for us consumers. Being actual competition to Apple greatly benefits you and me. Why many of you are asking for less competition in the smartphone arena is beyond me.

I welcome competition, just not the kind of competition Samsung provides - the kind that actually stifles creativity and innovation by copying it all and leveraging their assets and location to undercut their competition. They're the kings of the race to the bottom crowd, f that.

Two big competitors is not the type of competition any market needs either.

 

[jrswizzle]

Whilst I know, and can understand at some level the hatred shown towards Samsung by people who are very fond of Apple.

Please do not forget 2 very VERY important points.

1: Without Samsung the iPhone would not be anything like as good as it is now from a component quality standpoint.

2: Without people like Samsung PUSHING HARD to get their own customers, raising people's expectations, Apple would have little reason to push for large improvements in their own models.

Please don't be naive enough to think that any company such as Apple would try as hard as they can year on year to win customers without any competition from other manufacturers.

So as much as you may on the surface Hate Samsung. Remember in both ways Apple and the iPhone would be nothing and/or no where near as good without them.

No, we aren't forgetting these points - only stating that they aren't entirely true.

Again, it seems the prevailing theory is that Samsung is this unique savior. That NO other OEM could ever have hope to vanquish the evil Apple empire. But despite this belief, Apple has never held the top OEM spot. iOS was, briefly at the top of the smartphone OS market share list, but Android (before Samsung became the Samsung we know today) was hot on its heels and had already surpassed iOS before the GS2/3.

The reality is, Samsung took what made Apple successful, copied it and then bashed Apple for doing what they just copied. It's made Samsung, by far, the number one smartphone OEM in the world. But that lead is based on a bunch of marketing fluff and other people's ideas.

Samsung gave us the Note series and with it, perhaps pushed forward the idea of a larger display on a smartphone. But Apple's product timelines are 3-4 years in the making. Nothing Samsung has done (most of which has been reactionary) has "pushed" Apple to amend those plans.

Honestly, without Samsung - we'd have far more competition in the Android world as companies like HTC and LG would be able to really push as opposed to just trying to survive.

 

[kdarling]

Of course. I've already stated that if apple steals they should pay too. Yours seems to be an argument of "well they did it too so ha"...mines is "don't steal."

I'm not excusing Samsung. I'm saying that software trials are rarely about stealing, as you claimed.

This is like saying murder convictions are invalid because juries are not comprised of criminal justice majors, lawyers and law enforcement officers. Juries look at evidence, and make conclusions based on evidence. What jury anywhere has a specialized group of SMEs at every trial? You're grasping at straws when you're saying the system is at fault.

Some well respected IP jurists have also said that layman juries should not decide patent trials.

Such juries can understand common human motives and the presence of physical evidence. They cannot understand software concepts and patent wording that even code experts dispute, and which often hinge upon the placement of a comma.

 

[Pakaku]

Hmmm, the smell of brand fanboyism in the morning. Only in the US do people root for brands like their hometeam.

 

[kodos]

Samsung owes all of its success in the Smartphone arena to Google and Apple. I respect Google, I respect Apple, and I even respect Microsoft. I have ZERO respect for Samsung. They are a terrible blight on the industry.

And their laughable "innovations" show them to be creatively bankrupt as well. Best thing Apple has done is cease the flow of new products as of late. It just shows Samsung's inability to do "the Next Big Thing" on their own.

But in the end, their fate will be the same as those vendors who were OEMs for Microsoft in the heydey of Wintel. Without Google, Samsung really is nothing. They cannot stand on their own two feet. Unlike Apple, Google or Microsoft.

 

[jrswizzle]

100% right on. I'm the biggest Apple fan there is; but there is no way Apple would be developing bigger screens, or allowing flexible keyboards, if some other company didn't go out there first and prove that there was huge consumer demand for these.

Really? Do you have documentation regarding Apple's product pipelines and plans? I'd love to see those....

HTC had released quite a few flagship devices over 4" before Samsung got to the Galaxy S2. They also released the 4.7" Titan before the Galaxy S3.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2455...g-bigger-specs-reveal-a-surprising-story.html

So you see, while Samsung has given us the Note series and the phablet, HTC was driving displays bigger before Samsung got as popular as it is now.

Again, Samsung used a massive marketing budget and its knowledge of Apple's pipeline to manipulate the market and boost its position. This in turn almost destroyed competition in the Android space. Luckily, Samsung appears vulnerable and other companies like HTC and LG are making some absolutely killer devices.

This isn't an Apple v Samsung thing. This is about competition within Android, which has been almost nonexistent over the last 3 years. Vanilla android has seen huge advances but Samsung has dominated the skinned/consumer market. That's not good for customers....

 

[kdarling]

Samsung gave us the Note series and with it, perhaps pushed forward the idea of a larger display on a smartphone. But Apple's product timelines are 3-4 years in the making. Nothing Samsung has done (most of which has been reactionary) has "pushed" Apple to amend those plans.

We already know from the trials that Apple didn't consider making the iPad mini until one of their SVPs used a 7" Samsung and found that it was quite usable.

Likewise, I don't think even the most radical Apple fan would claim that Apple had planned years ago to make bigger phones by now. It's clear that, just as with smaller tablets, they see a big chunk of the phone market going to Samsung, and they want a piece of it.

And that's okay. In fact, it's great. One of Apple's strengths is that sometimes they can change their mind on a dime.

 

[Trapezoid]

I'm not excusing Samsung. I'm saying that software trials are rarely about stealing, as you claimed.

I was thrown by you even bringing up apples losses in court. It just seemed like a "they did it too". If that was not your intent, I apologize. We'll agree to disagree on whether or not its stealing.

Some well respected IP jurists have also said that layman juries should not decide patent trials.

Such juries can understand common human motives and the presence of physical evidence. They cannot understand software concepts and patent wording that even code experts dispute, and which often hinge upon the placement of a comma.

Hey, I'm all for what you're saying but it's not realistic and you can't use that as a reason to invalidate a verdict. Because again based on that logic every jury in every trial is invalid and the justice system is one big farce. I think the best recourse is for companies not to steal. Not do it, get caught and found guilty and then say the jury is dumb. The dumb part is using that excuse.

 

[FieldingMellish]

Apple is remaining independent so that they're not bullied by suppliers, or that they avoid taking a hit that arises out of whatever hit their supplier might suffer. (A tsunami, for instance).

It was the same thing with Apple's maps app. These are companies working together as strange bedfellows. At any point, a supplier will attempt eating Apple's lunch as a competitor, regardless that they've been making money from Apple in another way.

 

[Iconoclysm]

Whilst I know, and can understand at some level the hatred shown towards Samsung by people who are very fond of Apple.

Please do not forget 2 very VERY important points.

1: Without Samsung the iPhone would not be anything like as good as it is now from a component quality standpoint.

2: Without people like Samsung PUSHING HARD to get their own customers, raising people's expectations, Apple would have little reason to push for large improvements in their own models.

Please don't be naive enough to think that any company such as Apple would try as hard as they can year on year to win customers without any competition from other manufacturers.

So as much as you may on the surface Hate Samsung. Remember in both ways Apple and the iPhone would be nothing and/or no where near as good without them.

1. Samsung does nothing but manufacture less than 10% of the components of an iPhone and most of those are using the designs Apple created. There is nothing higher quality about Samsung's components.

2. Samsung is not the company pushing Apple to improve their products. Samsung is the reason Apple made a plastic iPhone and would be a reason Apple should cut back on quality and push hard on gimmicks.

 

[jrswizzle]

We already know from the trials that Apple didn't consider making the iPad mini until one of their SVPs used a 7" Samsung and found that it was quite usable.

Likewise, I don't think even the most radical Apple fan would claim that Apple had planned years ago to make bigger phones by now. It's clear that, just as with smaller tablets, they see a big chunk of the phone market going to Samsung, and they want a piece of it.

And that's okay. In fact, it's great. One of Apple's strengths is that sometimes they can change their mind on a dime.

Perhaps - though as I stated above, I really question whether it was Samsung who drove that or simply Android in general. HTC had larger devices out before Samsung.

I don't know what Apple planned. I'm not saying they always had it in the pipeline. I'm only stating that none of us know and to definitely state that Apple would have us all in chains to 3.5" displays if it weren't for Samsung is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[kdarling]

Perhaps - though as I stated above, I really question whether it was Samsung who drove that or simply Android in general. HTC had larger devices out before Samsung.

I think you're right that larger displays started partly as competition within Android, and partly with Samsung wanting to differentiate its flagships from the iPhone.

As for size direction, I would not be a bit surprised if Apple's original plans were to have gone smaller. Remember how everyone was clamoring for an iPhone nano back then?

For better or worse, HTC went big and Samsung did too.