“Foundation” discussion thread

[LonestarOne]

With luck the people then will explore the story in some new ways that speak to where they will be then.

You don’t get it. Science fiction isn’t about “speaking to where you are”. It’s about opening your mind to new ideas and new possibilities. Reinterpreting the story to fit inside your comfortable mental box misses the entire point.

 

[TorbenIbsen]

Hi everyone,

Let’s use this space to comment on the incoming TV show “Foundation” and (at least in my case) to share fears and worries about the level of deviation that this series may have compared to the original books.

When Apple announced “Foundation” I was so excited that I have read all the 7 books in a row (and completed this huge task only a couple of weeks ago) so that now I have the entire saga well clear in my mind.

Then I saw the 3 trailers…. and my reaction wasn’t positive at all.

For what I have seen till now it looks like the books were used just to inspire something which reminds - and for some extent recalls - the original story, then it deviates dramatically with invented characters, gender swap (men characters represented by women) and a lot of action (while in reality there isn’t much action in the original story).

Demerzel is a man, Gaal Dornick is a man (with a quite marginal role), brother Day, Dusk and Dawn do not exist at all in the original books….

Where is the need to represent men’s characters by women when in the books there are legendary women characters such as Dors Venabili (my favorite one), Bliss, Bayta and Arkadia Darell?

I fear that I will be hugely disappointed by watching this show and I do believe that this will end up being just a good action movie rather than the translation of the original story on the big screen.

I would love to be wrong but so far what has been shown in the 3 trailers doesn’t go in the right direction imho.

I have it exactly like you. I have also read all the books more than once over the years and was really looking forward to this TV series. But it is a total disappointment. - Watching this series was my primary reason for having an Apple TV+ subscription. I have given up and won't be following the rest of the series or whatever else Apple puts on there. I spend the money on Britbox instead.

 

[TorbenIbsen]

Is the gender important for the story? If not, why does it matter what gender a character has?

Imagine that Hollywood made another big Bible story movie. And that Jesus was turned into a young black girl. Or a movie about Egypt where queen Cleopatra was turned into King Cleopatra which of course at the same time would be gay. There has to be gay people in all movies these days.

One could also ask the opposite of your question: Why exactly has the character have to change gender, and why invent all the Emperor stuff at all? There would be enough material from the books themselves?

 

[Tagbert]

You don’t get it. Science fiction isn’t about “speaking to where you are”. It’s about opening your mind to new ideas and new possibilities. Reinterpreting the story to fit inside your comfortable mental box misses the entire point.

Then perhaps we should all open our minds to new ideas and new possibilities.

 

[Lioness~]

I would't say that sci-fi has any frames in how it should be interpreted at all!
What ever your experience are it’s yours.
Someone else has a totally different viewpoint, wonderful.

That is not about only sci-if, it’s about a lot of stuff in life.
Ok, maybe not in how a Mac works on the inside, but what we can do with it or with our own minds can relate to scl-fi, absolutely 🖖🏼

 

[MiniApple]

What's the current estimate release window/date for season 2?

 

[Lioness~]

What's the current estimate release window/date for season 2?

Not known yet. But they are filmning it.

Foundation Season 2: Everything We Know So Far - The Teal Mango

the current season is filming and working on the production level for the upcoming season.

www.thetealmango.com

 

[JBGoode]

Imagine that Hollywood made another big Bible story movie. And that Jesus was turned into a young black girl. Or a movie about Egypt where queen Cleopatra was turned into King Cleopatra which of course at the same time would be gay. There has to be gay people in all movies these days.

One could also ask the opposite of your question: Why exactly has the character have to change gender, and why invent all the Emperor stuff at all? There would be enough material from the books themselves?

Why are you comparing actual historical figures who are literally defined by gender because they actually existed (Cleo anyway), with a fictional character where gender arguably makes no difference at all?

 

[ftaok]

Why are you comparing actual historical figures who are literally defined by gender because they actually existed (Cleo anyway), with a fictional character where gender arguably makes no difference at all?

Because it’s easier to be outraged over the petty and inconsequential stuff, so that one doesn’t have to be outraged over the stuff that really matters.

 

[AL2TEACH]

One could also ask the opposite of your question: Why exactly has the character have to change gender, and why invent all the Emperor stuff at all? There would be enough material from the books themselves?

Because that was the intent of making "Foundation", it's purpose was NOT to be the book.

 

[ackmondual]

Because that was the intent of making "Foundation", it's purpose was NOT to be the book.

I've been hearing that ripping the material straight from the book would've been a bad move. The pacing and content wouldn't have lent itself well to the screen format.

 

[LonestarOne]

Then perhaps we should all open our minds to new ideas and new possibilities.

ROTFL.

Superheroes and stuff blowing up are hardly new ideas.

You will find more ideas in one of Asimov's books than the entirety of Apple TV.

 

[LonestarOne]

Because that was the intent of making "Foundation", it's purpose was NOT to be the book.

Then why pretend it's based on the book? Why bother claiming a connection to source material you hate? And buying up the rights, preventing someone else from doing a true adaptation?

 

[AL2TEACH]

Why bother claiming a connection to source material you hate?

I don't think the source material is hated. There are plenty of articles that go into the thought process of making the series.
https://mashable.com/article/foundation-book-vs-show a bit from the article

"To say Apple TV+'s Foundation diverges from its source material would be a bit of an understatement.

An adaptation of Isaac Asimov's classic science fiction novels, Foundation is less interested in following its source material to the letter than it is in creating a story within Asimov's universe that would make good TV. The basic plot remains the same: mathematician Hari Seldon (Jared Harris) foretells the fall of the Galactic Empire thanks to his theory of psychohistory. Knowing the fall is inevitable, he establishes the Foundation in order to preserve knowledge and, hopefully, civilization in the years to come..."

Just the first 2 paragraphs or so might be worth reading from

Jared Harris sits in a chair

In 'Foundation,' now on Apple TV+, the 'Mad Men' and 'The Crown' veteran conveys something elemental about his character — without even standing up.

www.latimes.com

from the article. "...it’s a book often called “unfilmable.” Having read it, I would say that this is not so much because it is too stylistically complex as that it — as written — is not worth filming. About 90% talk and maybe 3% action, it was inspired by Edward Gibbon’s “The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,” and is almost as dry — less a space opera than a salute to diplomacy, brinksmanship and the stratagem that cuts conflict off at the pass...In any case, series creators David S. Goyer (“Blade,” “Man of Steel”) and Josh Friedman (“The Black Dahlia,” “Avatar 2") did something else here, creating scenes and relationships to make “Foundation” more conventionally dramatic and exciting and politically contemporary. Many male roles have been gender-swapped — not hard to do when your characters have names like Lors Avakim and Salvor Hardin, and a welcome improvement on a text that is pretty much wall to wall dudes, and pretty sexist whenever a woman peeks in. Some scenes seem written almost just to justify the special effects, which are, indeed, special."

I have never read the books that make up Foundation so I have no complaints about the show. Maybe one day others will try to make the source material a movie or two. I'm hoping others will try to make War & Peace, a movie because it is a fabulous book.

 

[theluggage]

Then why pretend it's based on the book? Why bother claiming a connection to source material you hate? And buying up the rights, preventing someone else from doing a true adaptation?

Simple: because the bosses feel that associating it with a fairly famous work & author will bring in the viewers.

Also, against all reason, some of the most successful and popular SF films are the result of ignoring original stories by Philip K Dick (who's work is even less film-able than Asimov's).

I agree that Apple's "Foundation" works best if you forget about the books and just approach it as an original space opera, and that the writers could probably have written a better TV show if they had started with a clean slate and written a space opera set in their "genetic empire" with their own take on robots etc. But that probably wouldn't have got funded.

If they wanted to film Asimov then the Elijah Bailey novels would have been a better choice - the industry knows how to do dialogue-driven murder mysteries & there are even a few opportunities for action sequences - but it appears that they don't have the rights to these, which is awkward seeing as Asimov retconned everything to make them the backstory for Foundation.

 

[ftaok]

Simple: because the bosses feel that associating it with a fairly famous work & author will bring in the viewers.

Also, against all reason, some of the most successful and popular SF films are the result of ignoring original stories by Philip K Dick (who's work is even less film-able than Asimov's).

I agree that Apple's "Foundation" works best if you forget about the books and just approach it as an original space opera, and that the writers could probably have written a better TV show if they had started with a clean slate and written a space opera set in their "genetic empire" with their own take on robots etc. But that probably wouldn't have got funded.

If they wanted to film Asimov then the Elijah Bailey novels would have been a better choice - the industry knows how to do dialogue-driven murder mysteries & there are even a few opportunities for action sequences - but it appears that they don't have the rights to these, which is awkward seeing as Asimov retconned everything to make them the backstory for Foundation.

I'm not familiar with any of Asimov's books. I certainly knew of him and knew, in general, the genre of books he authored. So I had no preconceived ideas of what Foundation was supposed to be, so I can enjoy the series for what it is.

To me, the show is beautiful. The settings and photography are visually stunning. The story is very interesting and the ideas are very thought provoking. The acting is really excellent.

I guess I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about inconsistencies between the books and the show, so things that might seem silly to fans of the book really don't distract from my enjoyment.

 

[ackmondual]

If nothing else, I'm just intrigued about the genetic dynasty in general. Those at the Foundation, and the Empire's fall (at least I hope they cover that)

 

[Bento.Box]

An adaptation of Isaac Asimov's classic science fiction novels, Foundation is less interested in following its source material to the letter than it is in creating a story within Asimov's universe that would make good TV.

But it doesn't make good TV.

I really don't see the point of rebooting a franchise into something it isn't, especially to make up for bad writing/acting etc. People will be disappointed and not watch it, and the IP would usually cost extra money.

I haven't read the books myself yet, but just listening to youtubers tell and discuss Asimov's stories makes me more interested in the subject then watching Foundation.

Wheel of Time was another such recent failure. Or the Witcher series.

 

[Tagbert]

But it doesn't make good TV.

I really don't see the point of rebooting a franchise into something it isn't, especially to make up for bad writing/acting etc. People will be disappointed and not watch it, and the IP would usually cost extra money.

I haven't read the books myself yet, but just listening to youtubers tell and discuss Asimov's stories makes me more interested in the subject then watching Foundation.

Wheel of Time was another such recent failure. Or the Witcher series.

Remember that YouTubers goal is to drive traffic and creating controversy and stirring people up is the fastest way to do that. We've seen that with a lot of Youtube reviews of new Apple products where the reviewers exaggerate or misrepresent issues specifically to get more clicks.

 

[Bento.Box]

Remember that YouTubers goal is to drive traffic and creating controversy and stirring people up is the fastest way to do that. We've seen that with a lot of Youtube reviews of new Apple products where the reviewers exaggerate or misrepresent issues specifically to get more clicks.

True, that's the case for many.

But there were also a lot of fans and experts on the Foundation books who were genuinely interested in the show and didn't even finish the season in the end (e.g. Quinn's Ideas).

Same for Wheel of Time. I made it through both, but it was rather disappointing.

A friend of mine is a hardcore witcher fan. Played all the games, read the books, even had cosplays and was pumped for season one and then was really disappointed.

I honestly didn't even look into the Rings of Power. A lot of shows nowadays are just unneccesarily bad. As both Star Wars and Star Trek Fan, I stopped watching the shows and movies here as well.

On the other hand, the Orville is great and so was the Expanse. And from Apple TV, I enjoy Mythic Quest.

 

[Tagbert]

True, that's the case for many.

But there were also a lot of fans and experts on the Foundation books who were genuinely interested in the show and didn't even finish the season in the end (e.g. Quinn's Ideas).

Same for Wheel of Time. I made it through both, but it was rather disappointing.

A friend of mine is a hardcore witcher fan. Played all the games, read the books, even had cosplays and was pumped for season one and then was really disappointed.

I honestly didn't even look into the Rings of Power. A lot of shows nowadays are just unneccesarily bad. As both Star Wars and Star Trek Fan, I stopped watching the shows and movies here as well.

On the other hand, the Orville is great and so was the Expanse. And from Apple TV, I enjoy Mythic Quest.

And I've been a fan of Asimov and the Foundation series for well over 50 years, but I still really enjoyed this retelling of the story and am eager for the next season. Any time you take a story that people have built up in their own imagination and create a tangible version of it some people are going to object that what you created doesn't match what they expect.

 

[AL2TEACH]

But it doesn't make good TV.

I'm going to assume you have watched the series and you don't like but there are many people who have seen Foundation and like. It's just a matter of like it or not. I would never go by the opinion of a youtuber review alone.

 

[AL2TEACH]

A lot of shows nowadays are just unneccesarily bad.

True!!!!!!! but people should understand a book is a book and a movie made using the book is not the book on film, it's a movie and while watching the movie should only see the movie.
If a person wants the book then read the book, if a person wants the game play the game.
The same thing applies, the old "based on facts/true story" kind of thing.

 

[Bento.Box]

Any time you take a story that people have built up in their own imagination and create a tangible version of it some people are going to object that what you created doesn't match what they expect.

There are people who succeed, people who try and fail and people who don’t even try. On the one hand of the spectrum there is Stanley Kubrick for example, on the other side, there is modern hollywood.

 

[Varking]

Season 3 has been greenlit.