Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
12,645
23,536
Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with those? Do they decrease bandwidth and thus resolution or frame rate?


DisplayLink compress everything to fit within the USB 10 Gbps limit. It only reports changes to the display frame buffer. Things lag when you have more than one 4K monitor. To bypass the limitation, DisplayLink is basically like a frame capture app. This makes content protected apps like Netflix and Apple TV not work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: theorist9

canadianreader

macrumors 65816
Sep 24, 2014
1,139
3,165
So why not get a desktop then? I thought the purpose of a laptop is to free yourself from being stuck with a desktop.

Some business owners use it as desktop at home with multiple monitors and use the laptop in bed/kitchen etc or outside while on business trips. It's very versatile and certainly better than buying 2 computers.

00.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mac_The_Ripper

Flying Grayson

macrumors member
Jul 24, 2020
30
49
Yes and how much more energy does it use? How much does is reduce overall performance.
Oh I’m not defending it at all though, don’t get me wrong! It’s truly terrible and going to my M2 MacBook Air each day is a dream. I’m just intrigued that a terrible machine at 1/3 the cost can do something most would argue is ‘standard’ for a laptop. My 2014 MacBook Pro can still run two displays - but not my far superior M2 Air.
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 601
Jul 20, 2011
4,988
4,315
You must have missed where they said "base model".
Those PC makers use the chipsets and feature/functionality that AMD/Intel gives them. As a more vertically-integrated laptop supplier, Apple decides what they want to be 'base'. Just like every Apple laptop is >200ppi and all of those other manufacturer 'base models' are ~100ppi trash.

Shouldn't you be asking why HP/Lenovo/Dell have base models with garbage internal screens?
 

picpicmac

macrumors 65816
Aug 10, 2023
1,056
1,482
All M3s should do multiple displays.
They do:

The iMac supports 2 displays (one internal, one external).
The M3 MBP supports 2 displays (one internal, one external).
The M3 Mac Mini, if it follows the M2, supports 2 displays (external.)

The grievance theater over this issue is absurd. The M3 Pro supports more displays, and the M3 Max even more than that.

Buy what you need.
 

ProfessionalFan

macrumors 603
Sep 29, 2016
5,829
14,788
The title of this thread/story is "external display" so I am at a loss why people keep commenting on how it does 2 displays since it has an internal one.

Obviously I and everyone else in support of multiple displays means multiple EXTERNAL displays. So you can clamshell your laptop and still run 2 monitors. Something basically every Windows laptop does.

And again the future M3 Mac mini with no internal display will have the same problem of only one display.

Do those in favor of the upsell practice have a real counter argument to this instead of acting like you don't know we meant EXTERNAL displays?
 
Last edited:

canadianreader

macrumors 65816
Sep 24, 2014
1,139
3,165
that's like your opinion man

or provide me the technical memo stating the definition of pro

my sub 100 dollar raspberry pi supports 2 external monitors. A state of the art apple laptop doesn't seem to be able to

It’s not like they’re generous with their customers otherwise they would have produced a 27inch iMac already and put 16GB of ram in their base models. Can base macbook models support 2 monitors ? Of course they can. Will Apple allow it? of course not. They want you to pay extra for that. It's clever!
 

Yourbigpalal83

macrumors 6502
May 22, 2015
277
397
This is the soul thing i wanted out of a new imac, since my old 27 inch intel could do 2 external displays, but my current m1 cant....you would think a chip as powerful as the m3 could easly handle 2 external monitors, but it cant, hence why i am keeping my current m1 imac!

Its a deal breaker for me. Apple, call me when your current baseline macs can handle what the older less powerful intel chips could !

sorry not sorry!
 

canadianreader

macrumors 65816
Sep 24, 2014
1,139
3,165
They do:

The iMac supports 2 displays (one internal, one external).
The M3 MBP supports 2 displays (one internal, one external).
The M3 Mac Mini, if it follows the M2, supports 2 displays (external.)

The grievance theater over this issue is absurd. The M3 Pro supports more displays, and the M3 Max even more than that.

Buy what you need.

It's not absurd and it's simple they need to be able to close the macbook lid put on the desk and use two monitors. Any modern laptop should be able to provide with that need. Apple made it that you need to pay 300 to 400 dollars to support 2 monitors and they're very smart doing that because it's more profit.
 

JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
12,645
23,536
It's not absurd and it's simple they need to be able to close the macbook lid put on the desk and use two monitors. Any modern laptop should be able to provide with that need. Apple made it that you need to pay 300 to 400 dollars to support 2 monitors and they're very smart doing that because it's more profit.

I can already hear the counter arguments coming.

"Closing the lid is an ultra pro feature. A tiny percentage do that."

"No real pro ought to close their notebook lid."

"You can simply pay $500 to get the privilege of more external displays."

"Too many transistors needed for that feature. Thermal/power overload!"
 

canadianreader

macrumors 65816
Sep 24, 2014
1,139
3,165
I can already hear the counter arguments coming.

"Closing the lid is an ultra pro feature. A tiny percentage do that."

"No real pro ought to close their notebook lid."

"You can simply pay $500 to get the privilege of more external displays."

"Too many transistors needed for that feature. Thermal/power overload!"

Already happened someone already stated that 99.9% use 1 monitor only 0.01% will need to pay $400 to use a second external monitor. Fair enough.
 

Stromos

macrumors 6502a
Jul 1, 2016
795
1,916
Woodstock, GA
Ah, that’s fair. I suppose I’m just blessed that I always worked in Linux and Unix (back in the day) environments. Meaning, remoting is basically synonymous with ssh and terminals to me, not legacy windows servers.

The closest thing I encounter to what you are describing is the occupational lab equipment software running on ancient windows machines , but, I rarely need to remote into those as well, you kinda need to be with the equipment anyways. In the rare case I’ll need to monitor it remotely, I’d just fire up an old laptop by my side to deal with those, for me, edge cases.


With that said, I did mostly take offence to last paragraph of your post, and my reply was mostly commenting on that. As I felt you insinuated it was largely that the only reason somebody would run a high dpi monitor was to show off their wealth, as it was scaled anyways. And this, i disagreed with 🙂
That's fair. I was harsh about that. My company is all about virtual desktops and a bunch of other silly endeavors that have me easily having 5-6 RDP sessions open each day to work. Even with a 4K screen it becomes a pain quickly. Which is why I have dual QHD screens at home and at work. Everything runs native resolution and is readable.

It's disappointing that a M2 Air which I own is the only device that if I plug in my dock it can't use both displays. Saying I need to spend more money for a Pro processor is silly. My M2 air is more than capable of doing pro things including running Windows 11 ARM and Ubuntu Server in VMs but I can't have each VM up on a different screen.

All arguments aside no matter how you look at it its a choice that Apple makes. Tons of horsepower with gimped screen output. Even if I bought a 6K screen or a ultrawide I couldn't have the two VMs side by side because fullscreen is required for all input to be routed to the VM vs the host. This is a limitation of big screens when working with anything that requires full screens to fully operate and even the paid software for windows can't get around this limitation.

Every other laptop I own would handle this fine including connecting to the VMs on the M2 Air remotely and having one up on each screen. Every machine I own capable of this simple thing costs less than the price of the M2 Air.

I love my M2 and I mess with it sitting on the couch from time to time. But the fact that I can't hook it up to a Thunderbolt dock and work on a pair of screens just means it's never the computer I am reaching for to do any work.

Could I setup a completely separate desk with a big screen just for my M2 sure. But that just seems silly that every other machine works except the Apple device. And it will still be gimped from doing any of the fullscreen things I do on a daily basis.

This is one of those where the company thinks customers will change everything they do to work with us.

No different than when Google killed Nest Homekit development. Google said if you want to use Nest you will buy our hubs and Android. No. I won't. I'll replace the thermostats and cameras with Ubiquiti and Ecobee.

No different than the current news that Chamberlain has blocked all access to any plugins that let you link your Garage door to homekit. No Chamberlain I will not use your app full of ads or pay for a subscription to open and close my garage door. Anxiously waiting for my ratgdo to arrive to take my garage door back to my local network.

Apple thinks I'll buy a overkill premium laptop to have two screens. No I just will continue to use every other machine I have. Apple thinks I'll buy a giant iPad because I hate how much they gimp the iPad Mini. No I will just continue to complain that the iPad Mini is made from leftover parts.

In all these scenarios I know I'm in the minority and that's fine. The more companies say this is how you use our product the less I am inclined to do business with them. I am glad the masses are happy I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KevinN206

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,705
2,806
Sincere question: do you believe that number of external monitors supported has any cost? For example, in power consumption & memory usage? Chip size? Chip Cost?

Assuming there IS a cost, is it really so inconceivable that Apple would prioritize something other than multiple external monitors in their base-model chip?

To me this is the crux. I see Apple simply making different choices.
I don't believe it would be significant. The base M-series models (including the M1) all had sufficient GPU power and connectivity to run at least three displays total, and probably could handle four without issue (you'd just need to split one of the TB4 ports). Thus I believe not providing added display support was a deliberate business/product differentiation decision.

I.e., I think they nerfed the display support on the base chips.
 
Last edited:

dwaite

macrumors 65816
Jun 11, 2008
1,237
1,019
It's a strange decision from Apple's leadership, aside from the obvious money factor.

Snapdragon 8c from four years ago supports dual 4K external monitors. It has less than half the transistors compared to M3. The upcoming Snapdragon X Elite supports two 5K external. Celerons from a decade ago with a fraction the transistor count support triple monitors.

Clearly, this is not a technical limitation nor a transistor budget issue, but rather marketing.
Yes, but the Snapdragon and Celeron have drastically different architectures. A big part of what makes the M-series of chips special in terms of performance-per-watt is that they are very opinionated - snapdragon 8c is a 'compute platform', the M3 is a chip designed up-front targeting a set of devices with a specific set of capabilities.

Having seen many other chips with such a design methodology (3dfx Voodoo 2 springs to mind), I'm not comfortable saying they could just wedge an additional display output into their current architecture without ramifications.

So no, I don't think it is a marketing/moneymaking thing. I think it is part of the design trade-offs of the chip.

To put it a different way - if they had to choose between the chip having 2% faster GPU performance, one more efficiency core or an additional display output, they'd have been nuts to pick the display.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Timo_Existencia

dwaite

macrumors 65816
Jun 11, 2008
1,237
1,019
I don't believe it would be significant. The base M-series models (including the M1) all had sufficient GPU power and connectivity to run at least three displays total, and probably could handle four without issue (you'd just need to split one of the TB4 ports). Thus I believe not providing added display support was a deliberate business/product differentiation decision.

I.e., I think they nerfed the display support on the base chips.

I don't have inside knowledge so take this as speculation, but I believe the current external-facing I/O subsystem is designed to meet the needs of a single thunderbolt 4 'bus', which includes two displays. However, they tie internally integrated hardware (e.g. DisplayPort for the internal display) into that bus.

So it isn't until you get to the Pro/Max/Ultra chips or the screen-less Mac mini that the system exposes the full bus to the USB-C ports, which is why the only M2 based system which lists Thunderbolt 4 support is the Mac mini.

Other vendors either support more I/O, or have a specialized internal I/O subsystem for integrated displays and accessories. I suspect when Apple prioritizes the baseline chips supporting an extra display, they'll go with the second option.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tagbert

dwaite

macrumors 65816
Jun 11, 2008
1,237
1,019
Can base macbook models support 2 monitors ? Of course they can. Will Apple allow it? of course not.
The shipping processors have a hardware limitation that means a M3 MacBook Air or MacBook Pro can support one additional external display after powering the internal display. This is not some software lock.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tagbert

justdanyul

macrumors member
Oct 30, 2018
75
122
That's fair. I was harsh about that. My company is all about virtual desktops and a bunch of other silly endeavors that have me easily having 5-6 RDP sessions open each day to work. Even with a 4K screen it becomes a pain quickly. Which is why I have dual QHD screens at home and at work. Everything runs native resolution and is readable.

It's disappointing that a M2 Air which I own is the only device that if I plug in my dock it can't use both displays. Saying I need to spend more money for a Pro processor is silly. My M2 air is more than capable of doing pro things including running Windows 11 ARM and Ubuntu Server in VMs but I can't have each VM up on a different screen.

All arguments aside no matter how you look at it its a choice that Apple makes. Tons of horsepower with gimped screen output. Even if I bought a 6K screen or a ultrawide I couldn't have the two VMs side by side because fullscreen is required for all input to be routed to the VM vs the host. This is a limitation of big screens when working with anything that requires full screens to fully operate and even the paid software for windows can't get around this limitation.

Every other laptop I own would handle this fine including connecting to the VMs on the M2 Air remotely and having one up on each screen. Every machine I own capable of this simple thing costs less than the price of the M2 Air.

I love my M2 and I mess with it sitting on the couch from time to time. But the fact that I can't hook it up to a Thunderbolt dock and work on a pair of screens just means it's never the computer I am reaching for to do any work.

Could I setup a completely separate desk with a big screen just for my M2 sure. But that just seems silly that every other machine works except the Apple device. And it will still be gimped from doing any of the fullscreen things I do on a daily basis.

This is one of those where the company thinks customers will change everything they do to work with us.

No different than when Google killed Nest Homekit development. Google said if you want to use Nest you will buy our hubs and Android. No. I won't. I'll replace the thermostats and cameras with Ubiquiti and Ecobee.

No different than the current news that Chamberlain has blocked all access to any plugins that let you link your Garage door to homekit. No Chamberlain I will not use your app full of ads or pay for a subscription to open and close my garage door. Anxiously waiting for my ratgdo to arrive to take my garage door back to my local network.

Apple thinks I'll buy a overkill premium laptop to have two screens. No I just will continue to use every other machine I have. Apple thinks I'll buy a giant iPad because I hate how much they gimp the iPad Mini. No I will just continue to complain that the iPad Mini is made from leftover parts.

In all these scenarios I know I'm in the minority and that's fine. The more companies say this is how you use our product the less I am inclined to do business with them. I am glad the masses are happy I guess.
Oh you won’t hear me disagreeing with you on any of the above. It is absolute bs that in 2023 you can only connect one external monitor to any laptop , let alone one with such a hefty price tag.

I have this weird love hate relationship with Apple. I love the convenience of macOS, as a long time Linux user , it represents something that feels like ‘home’ but at the same time allows me to run all the applications i need for work and such, without the hassle that Linux represents in that respect.

But.. holy crap they are pushing it. The cost of SSDs, the intentional gimping for upselling purposes, the greed is insane.

It’s clear the Apple of today, don’t give **** about making a positive difference to their customers lives. It’s all about the dollar at this stage.
 

canadianreader

macrumors 65816
Sep 24, 2014
1,139
3,165
The shipping processors have a hardware limitation that means a M3 MacBook Air or MacBook Pro can support one additional external display after powering the internal display. This is not some software lock.
I didn't think it's a software lock I thought they did it on purpose to cut costs or/and push people to buy the pro or the max.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,705
2,806
I don't have inside knowledge so take this as speculation, but I believe the current external-facing I/O subsystem is designed to meet the needs of a single thunderbolt 4 'bus', which includes two displays. However, they tie internally integrated hardware (e.g. DisplayPort for the internal display) into that bus.

So it isn't until you get to the Pro/Max/Ultra chips or the screen-less Mac mini that the system exposes the full bus to the USB-C ports, which is why the only M2 based system which lists Thunderbolt 4 support is the Mac mini.

Other vendors either support more I/O, or have a specialized internal I/O subsystem for integrated displays and accessories. I suspect when Apple prioritizes the baseline chips supporting an extra display, they'll go with the second option.
According to this article from OWC, the two TB ports on the M1 Mini each have their own bus, and thus don't share bandwidth (at least not with each other; I don't know if the HDMI port shares bandwidth with one of them).
 
Last edited:

OrenLindsey

macrumors 6502
Aug 4, 2023
389
449
North Carolina
I don't have inside knowledge so take this as speculation, but I believe the current external-facing I/O subsystem is designed to meet the needs of a single thunderbolt 4 'bus', which includes two displays. However, they tie internally integrated hardware (e.g. DisplayPort for the internal display) into that bus.

So it isn't until you get to the Pro/Max/Ultra chips or the screen-less Mac mini that the system exposes the full bus to the USB-C ports, which is why the only M2 based system which lists Thunderbolt 4 support is the Mac mini.

Other vendors either support more I/O, or have a specialized internal I/O subsystem for integrated displays and accessories. I suspect when Apple prioritizes the baseline chips supporting an extra display, they'll go with the second option.
I thought apple silicon devices had one bus for each port though. My MacBook Pro M2 Pro, for instance, has 3 TB4 buses, and 3 TB4 ports.
Edit: yes, it seems to be true. Apple silicon devices have one bus for each port.
 

Ener Ji

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2010
474
342
My partner was all-set to get the 14" MBP with 16GB of RAM for $1800, which is more performance than she really needs, but ended up jumping up to the $2k M3 Pro just to guarantee the ability to get two external displays. Just in case she ever needs it. The new color was a nice bonus. Well played, Apple, well played. :-
 

Bug-Creator

macrumors 68000
May 30, 2011
1,764
4,689
Germany
And again the future M3 Mac mini with no internal display will have the same problem of only one display.

And why do you think that?

Hint, despite all the clickbait and whining nothing has actually changed from M1 to M2 to M3, hence no reason to believe that a M3 Mini would be reduced to 1 display.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tagbert
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.