Surface Devices

[Falhófnir]

I've been wondering, with Apple having released the 16" MacBook Pro that's addressed the main issues (keyboard being one) have they done so because of fear over people jumping to Surface devices. The 16" MacBook Pro does seem a lot more "pro" and even better value for money. Something Apple is not usually known for.

I do wonder if Apple are even looking at the Surface range and taking it seriously, especially after the Surface Duo and Neo were announced. Both the Neo and the Duo are appealing, whether they actually work in the real world, time will tell. I do think Apple should sit up and take notice of these two devices.

In my opinion they have the ability to be disruptive and if Apple sit back and rest on their laurels, there could be some very big shock waves. Apple did it with the iPhone and then again with the iPad, could it be that Microsoft have their turn with the Surface Duo and Neo? or could they flop big time?

IMO if their intention was to see off any further challenge from Microsoft then they've done it extraordinarily well, MS is now in a really difficult position with pricing their lineup. The Laptop 3 15" runs to over £2,000 for the Ryzen 7/ 16GB/ 512GB model - while if you look around you can pick up the base 16" for about £2,200 and you get a lot more power, better speakers, arguably better IO, and a larger screen in a smaller package.

Positioning the Surface Book 3 is going to be quite a challenge, matching the 16" on price and specs like they did for the SB2 is going to really put pressure on other OEMs. The only other option I can see is taking the SB even higher, going RTX 2070 or even 2080 MQ (as the GPU is the only component in the base there is plenty of thermal headroom with the existing 1060 by all accounts) but that's also going to disrupt the gaming market which is really lucrative for Windows OEMs (I think this is perhaps why the Surface Book 2 isn't already more powerful than it is).

 

[c0ppo]

I don't think Surface devices are a flop, but likewise, I don't think that they represent any threat to Macbooks or iPads for that matter. MS isn't serious about their hardware. At least not serious enough. But will that change over time?

 

[derekamoss]

I've been wondering, with Apple having released the 16" MacBook Pro that's addressed the main issues (keyboard being one) have they done so because of fear over people jumping to Surface devices. The 16" MacBook Pro does seem a lot more "pro" and even better value for money. Something Apple is not usually known for.

I do wonder if Apple are even looking at the Surface range and taking it seriously, especially after the Surface Duo and Neo were announced. Both the Neo and the Duo are appealing, whether they actually work in the real world, time will tell. I do think Apple should sit up and take notice of these two devices.

In my opinion they have the ability to be disruptive and if Apple sit back and rest on their laurels, there could be some very big shock waves. Apple did it with the iPhone and then again with the iPad, could it be that Microsoft have their turn with the Surface Duo and Neo? or could they flop big time?

I believe the are worried about the Surface range of devices and they have ALREADY trying to catch-up. If it wasn't for the Surface Pro I honestly believe we wouldn't have gotten the iPad Pro, Apple Pencil, the touch bar or iPad OS even. Why they didnt have any of this type of stuff before since the pretty much were the ones who mainstreamed touch displays and tablets I have no clue.

 

[Dave245]

I don't think Surface devices are a flop, but likewise, I don't think that they represent any threat to Macbooks or iPads for that matter. MS isn't serious about their hardware. At least not serious enough. But will that change over time?

I hope they are serious enough to care about the up coming Neo and Duo. I really like the look of both devices. That’s coming from an Apple user who is deep in the ecosystem.

 

[raqball]

I don't think that they represent any threat to Macbooks or iPads for that matter. MS isn't serious about their hardware. At least not serious enough. But will that change over time?

Disagree....

I had both the 16" Macbook Pro and a Surface Laptop 3 15" (Intel bizz edition) and guess which one was returned? Hint: It was not the Surface Laptop 3.....

 

[Dave245]

Disagree....

I had both the 16" Macbook Pro and a Surface Laptop 3 15" (Intel bizz edition) and guess which one was returned? Hint: It was not the Surface Laptop 3.....

Can I asked why you returned the MacBook Pro 16” but kept the Surface laptop 3? Do you prefer Windows over Mac OS? I haven’t used a Surface Laptop so I can’t comment on that. I did get a Surface Pro 6 and ended up selling it. I didn’t hate the hardware, in fact I really think Microsoft have stepped up the game in that regard.

It was the software ie Windows, maybe it’s because I’m use to using MacOS instead. Also I found the iPad to be a better tablet. Maybe the Surface Pro device just wasn’t right for me. You can see from my posts and even creation of this thread the journey I had.

 

[c0ppo]

Disagree....

I had both the 16" Macbook Pro and a Surface Laptop 3 15" (Intel bizz edition) and guess which one was returned? Hint: It was not the Surface Laptop 3.....

Not everyones needs and wants are the same. Sure, some will choose Surface over iPad or Macbook. But most won't.

I'm out of Macbook world for more then a year now, but if I had to choose between Surface Laptop 15 and MBP 16, it wouldn't be even a contest. On is basically an ultrabook, other is way more powerful. And I do need CPU power.

Surface Laptop isn't competing with MBP 16 at all. They are completely in different categories. XPS/Blade/X1E/etc. are competing with MBP.

 

[jrichards1408]

Not everyones needs and wants are the same. Sure, some will choose Surface over iPad or Macbook. But most won't.

I'm out of Macbook world for more then a year now, but if I had to choose between Surface Laptop 15 and MBP 16, it wouldn't be even a contest. On is basically an ultrabook, other is way more powerful. And I do need CPU power.

Surface Laptop isn't competing with MBP 16 at all. They are completely in different categories. XPS/Blade/X1E/etc. are competing with MBP.

Even the tiny 13 blade Stealth can almost go toe to toe with the 16 Mac

 

[raqball]

I'm out of Macbook world for more then a year now, but if I had to choose between Surface Laptop 15 and MBP 16, it wouldn't be even a contest. On is basically an ultrabook, other is way more powerful. And I do need CPU power.

Even the tiny 13 blade Stealth can almost go toe to toe with the 16 Mac

I have the Intel 15" version and CPU wise, it's very close to the base MBP 16" in most areas and beats it in some. The MBP does have the much better GPU...

CPU wise it's about a draw....

Can I asked why you returned the MacBook Pro 16” but kept the Surface laptop 3?

A few reasons....

1. macOS (Catalina) is a utter disaster. Win10 has been very solid for me
2. Size and weight. The 15" SL3 is smaller and MUCH lighter
3. Price. I got the SL3 on sale and also get an additional 9% off through MS. The MBP was $2150 on sale and I got the SL3 for $1450 after sales and discounts. The MBP was not worth an extra $700 to me. Not even close!
4. Final straw was a T2 kernal panic. Boxed it up and back it went!

I prefer macOS but am tired of the dreaded beach ball when trying to do simple things. Catalina is a disaster and at this moment, win10 is much more stable and issue free for me...

 

[Queen6]

win10 is much more stable and issue free for me...

Thing is when your hardware turns coin that what really matters, not the fluff. Sadly Apple is now a company that predomantly produces phones and it shows...

Q-6

 

[raqball]

Thing is when your hardware turns coin that what really matters, not the fluff. Sadly Apple is now a company that predomantly produces phones and it shows...

Q-6

The 16" is a step in the right direction though. The hardware in the machine is fine and the KB is a massive improvement over the butterfly but macOS is a disaster..... It use to be the other way around where Windows was a mess while macOS was solid... The tables have turned and win10 is now the better and more stable OS....

 

[c0ppo]

Even the tiny 13 blade Stealth can almost go toe to toe with the 16 Mac

Sorry, but nope, it's not even a contest. Even base MBP 16 will crush it. You are comparing apples and oranges. Please compare the CPU score of Stealth 13 vs MBP 16. Toe to toe? Really?

Now, Stealth will crush any MBP 13. Easily. But please, be realistic when comparing it to MBP 16.

I have the Intel 15" version and CPU wise, it's very close to the base MBP 16" in most areas and beats it in some. The MBP does have the much better GPU...

CPU wise it's about a draw...

CPU on MBP will crush it. Always. In any test. Intel produces chipsets for Surface and MBP. And those CPU aren't even in the same ballpark.

Now, I'm using X1E. And in the last 2-3 years I'm probably one of the biggest critics of Apple on this forum. But you two are going way beyond of realism scope. You are comparing H series CPU for laptops, best of what Intel has to offer... With what exactly?

Dell XPS 13 has 6 core CPU made for ultrabooks. Razer has quad core, TDP limited if 1650 is in use. Even Dells' 13 XPS CPU can't compare with MBP 16 CPU. Surface and Razer are quad core. What are you even talking about?

If you want to compare (hardware wise) CPUs, compare MBP 16 with something like X1E/XPS15/Blade15.
All of those devices would crush those ultrabooks.

It's one thing if those devices are your personal choices. But it's completely another thing when comparing them with something way more powerful. And all jokes aside, MBP16 has way more powerful CPU.

It's like some apple fanboy would claim that 5500 AMD GPU is better then 2080 MaxQ. Anyone can claim that, but in almost all tests and real life scenarios, MaxQ would crush that GPU without even breaking a sweat.

 

[jrichards1408]

Sorry, but nope, it's not even a contest. Even base MBP 16 will crush it. You are comparing apples and oranges. Please compare the CPU score of Stealth 13 vs MBP 16. Toe to toe? Really?

Now, Stealth will crush any MBP 13. Easily. But please, be realistic when comparing it to MBP 16.



CPU on MBP will crush it. Always. In any test. Intel produces chipsets for Surface and MBP. And those CPU aren't even in the same ballpark.

Now, I'm using X1E. And in the last 2-3 years I'm probably one of the biggest critics of Apple on this forum. But you two are going way beyond of realism scope. You are comparing H series CPU for laptops, best of what Intel has to offer... With what exactly?

Dell XPS 13 has 6 core CPU made for ultrabooks. Razer has quad core, TDP limited if 1650 is in use. Even Dells' 13 XPS CPU can't compare with MBP 16 CPU. Surface and Razer are quad core. What are you even talking about?

If you want to compare (hardware wise) CPUs, compare MBP 16 with something like X1E/XPS15/Blade15.
All of those devices would crush those ultrabooks.

It's one thing if those devices are your personal choices. But it's completely another thing when comparing them with something way more powerful. And all jokes aside, MBP16 has way more powerful CPU.

It's like some apple fanboy would claim that 5500 AMD GPU is better then 2080 MaxQ. Anyone can claim that, but in almost all tests and real life scenarios, MaxQ would crush that GPU without even breaking a sweat.

Ok bro I mean 13 MacBook

 

[raqball]

CPU on MBP will crush it. Always. In any test. Intel produces chipsets for Surface and MBP. And those CPU aren't even in the same ballpark.

Yet in most benchmarks it does not and even looses to it in some cases....

 

[c0ppo]

Yet in most benchmarks it does not and even looses to it in some cases....

By all means, please provide me to a link to those benchmarks.

 

[Dave245]

I do think that Apple's OS releases have been more troublesome just lately. They really need to take more care with software. My 2017 iPad Pro froze the other night, Youtube was playing and another app I had by the side, but the touch screen refused to acknowledge any input. In the end I had to restart the iPad. It's happened a few times.

Also I've had issues with my AirPods Pro not charging, then charging and showing they are at 78% then dropping to 20% and so on. Then they fix themselves. Very weird software issues just lately. It's becoming more and more noticeable. I don't give Apple my money for them to mess up on software, otherwise why shouldn't I just go and by a Surface Laptop or something ?‍♂️

In my opinion, Apple need to be careful. They need to be paying attention to Microsoft and what they will announce with Windows 10 X for the Surface Neo and Duo, if it has killer features and a very stable OS, they will have gained a footing over Apple. The second thing is IF the Neo and Duo are industry moving devices, the iPhone and or iPad could find itself left behind. I don't mean that to sound dramatic but what I'm getting at is if Apple start becoming complacent and not take notice of these devices from Microsoft.

I watched that keynote from Microsoft and it was a very good one in my opinion. When Panos announced the Neo and then the Duo I was glued to my screen and instantly impressed. That's me speaking as an Apple fan/user for many years with many different products.

 

[jrichards1408]

By all means, please provide me to a link to those benchmarks.

My ThinkPad-X1-Extreme is faster then some desktops. That's how good it is. Intel can't be asked with desktop cpus anymore

 

[raqball]

By all means, please provide me to a link to those benchmarks.

Plenty of sites have benchmarks listed and some even compare them side by side..

You can simply Google Intel 9750H vs Intel 10710U

You appear to want to argue with everyone and I am not interested so I'll pass on further discussion at this time...

 

[kazmac]

I do think that Apple's OS releases have been more troublesome just lately. They really need to take more care with software. My 2017 iPad Pro froze the other night, Youtube was playing and another app I had by the side, but the touch screen refused to acknowledge any input. In the end I had to restart the iPad. It's happened a few times.

Also I've had issues with my AirPods Pro not charging, then charging and showing they are at 78% then dropping to 20% and so on. Then they fix themselves. Very weird software issues just lately. It's becoming more and more noticeable. I don't give Apple my money for them to mess up on software, otherwise why shouldn't I just go and by a Surface Laptop or something ?‍♂️

In my opinion, Apple need to be careful. They need to be paying attention to Microsoft and what they will announce with Windows 10 X for the Surface Neo and Duo, if it has killer features and a very stable OS, they will have gained a footing over Apple. The second thing is IF the Neo and Duo are industry moving devices, the iPhone and or iPad could find itself left behind. I don't mean that to sound dramatic but what I'm getting at is if Apple start becoming complacent and not take notice of these devices from Microsoft.

I watched that keynote from Microsoft and it was a very good one in my opinion. When Panos announced the Neo and then the Duo I was glued to my screen and instantly impressed. That's me speaking as an Apple fan/user for many years with many different products.

Sorry to say this but your iPad Pro now has touch disease/irresponsiveness. I've experienced it on every iPad model Apple's released since 2017.

The Neo seems intriguing to me, but the middle hinge may get in the way of drawing...otherwise, my curiosity is quite strong.

I wish MS released a Surface Book 3 with a better dGPU.

 

[c0ppo]

Plenty of sites have benchmarks listed and some even compare them side by side..

You can simply Google Intel 9750H vs Intel 10710U

You appear to want to argue with everyone and I am not interested so I'll pass on further discussion at this time...

Arguing? Well, if you say so...

So no links for those claims of yours? Figures, just as I've expected. Cya

 

[jrichards1408]

Arguing? Well, if you say so...

So no links for those claims of yours? Figures, just as I've expected. Cya

Bro the hexcore 45w cpus are faster.

 

[c0ppo]

Bro the hexcore 45w cpus are faster.

bro, that’s what I’m claiming all along.

 

[Dave245]

Sorry to say this but your iPad Pro now has touch disease/irresponsiveness. I've experienced it on every iPad model Apple's released since 2017.

The Neo seems intriguing to me, but the middle hinge may get in the way of drawing...otherwise, my curiosity is quite strong.

I wish MS released a Surface Book 3 with a better dGPU.

Is that what it's called? i had a similar issue with my last 2017 iPad Pro, in the end it completely stopped working (after glitching) and the screen wouldn't even turn on. Apple wanted to charge me £500 to fix it, but after i challenged it, wrote a strongly worded email to Phil Schiller at Apple, i got a call from Apple Executive relations and within a couple of days i received a replacement 2017 iPad Pro.

I have to admit that i'm thinking twice about buying another iPad Pro. I was all for the 2018 update, but when playing around with one in the store i did think about the initial hassle i had. That's not to say i won't buy the next one (i don't know yet it will depend on the update) but it's definitely something that pops into my head when thinking about it.

This replacement iPad Pro is only just over a year old, if it happens again then i will not be best pleased. I was planning on passing it down to my mother at some point, who is currently using a iPad Air 2.

Both the Neo and Duo are appealing to me, i just hope they can offer a great tablet experience wit the Neo. I have a lot of content on iTunes, will they support it? will productivity Apps like Word, Photoshop and so on be supported. IF they can give me a device that is better than my iPad Pro, then i will buy one. The same goes for the Duo, if they can give me a device that can be better than my iPhone then i'm in. I really like the look of the concept, what we haven't seen so far is the software.

 

[kazmac]

Is that what it's called? i had a similar issue with my last 2017 iPad Pro, in the end it completely stopped working (after glitching) and the screen wouldn't even turn on. Apple wanted to charge me £500 to fix it, but after i challenged it, wrote a strongly worded email to Phil Schiller at Apple, i got a call from Apple Executive relations and within a couple of days i received a replacement 2017 iPad Pro.

I have to admit that i'm thinking twice about buying another iPad Pro. I was all for the 2018 update, but when playing around with one in the store i did think about the initial hassle i had. That's not to say i won't buy the next one (i don't know yet it will depend on the update) but it's definitely something that pops into my head when thinking about it.

This replacement iPad Pro is only just over a year old, if it happens again then i will not be best pleased. I was planning on passing it down to my mother at some point, who is currently using a iPad Air 2.

Both the Neo and Duo are appealing to me, i just hope they can offer a great tablet experience wit the Neo. I have a lot of content on iTunes, will they support it? will productivity Apps like Word, Photoshop and so on be supported. IF they can give me a device that is better than my iPad Pro, then i will buy one. The same goes for the Duo, if they can give me a device that can be better than my iPhone then i'm in. I really like the look of the concept, what we haven't seen so far is the software.

Until Apple are called out on the iPad touch irresponsiveness / touch disease, they will not fix. I am sure its hardware and software as this cropped up every single time the iPad (Be it iPad, Pro, Air or Mini and -yes- the latest generation models too) got very hot before this problem manifested. There are multiple threads in the iPad forum about this, but back on the subject.

I am debating a Surface Pro right now to carry me over and dip my toes into Windows, but the Neo would be a wonderful iPad alternative and perfect for my commutes. I need to be using Android awhile before considering a Duo though.

The nice thing is there are good alternatives to Apple now.

And, yes, I still want a Surface Studio.

 

[KarmaRocket]

I've been really intrigued with the Surface Pro X. If MS decided to make one with an Intel 10th gen CPU, I would buy that over the new 11" iPad Pro I've been waiting for. I doubt they go down that route since they want to gain some traction with Windows on ARM.

The Neo and Duo are really interesting. I have to say I questioned why Microsoft would want to show both devices so early before any release date, but now they have me second guessing whether I should buy an iPad or not.

I'm also waiting to see what Microsoft does with the Surface Book 3. A next gen Nvidia RTX or AMD GPU would be interesting.

I think 2020 might be the year I get at least one surface device.