The 2019-2020 Football Thread

[Scepticalscribe]

Pulisic with a hat trick today. The jury is still very much out on Lampard and Chelsea, but I am happy to see the USA's best player shine at this level.

I don't want to be a curmudgeon, but all the praise Lampard and Chelsea are getting for playing "the kids" is entirely misplaced. They had to, because they cheated and got caught and can't buy any players. As soon as they can buy more players, they will. Some of the young Chelsea players will benefit from this experience and it will help their development - but again, not through any benevolence on the part of Chelsea.

Incredible scoreline for Leicester, though in matches like this it's really down to the losing team utterly collapsing.

Very good point, - and post - and a point that is very necessary to make, again and again.

While memory and the art of precise recall (and setting the facts thus recalled in a wider context) is a skill less respected in the journalistic profession in a 24 hours news society than used to be the case, sports journalists appear especially prone to such lapses (unless it involves the precise recall of the final score in an obscure football match played a decade earlier), focussing on the present, and failing to put such matters into a wider context and perspective.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Great start for Arsenal and Spurs in their respective games.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Given Liverpool's capability this season, I wasn't worried when Spurs scored so early, though it's always unpleasant to leak a goal in the first minute and it raises the risk of losing control of the match. In the end, Liverpool got the job done against a good opponent and you can't ask for much more than that.

Much has been made of Liverpool's defense being inferior to last year. For one thing, last year's defensive record was nearly perfect, and you can't expect that every season. For another, they are still not giving away many goals - yes, the clean sheet is always preferred, but if this team really is league-champion material, they should be able to regularly win games in which the defense allows a solitary goal, especially at home. Klopp has good depth at center back, and while Lovren and Gomez are not perfect judicious rotation has gotten the best out of them for the most part.

Spurs have had some bad results lately, though they are still just three points out of fifth place. I had them pegged for a top four finish this season but Chelsea and Leicester, and perhaps even Arsenal, are showing a little more consistency even if Spur's best performances are probably superior to those teams'.

Speaking of Leicester, Rogers has quietly (well, quietly before the 9-0!) steered them into a strong position.

 

[JamesMike]

Man U got the win against Norwich 3-1.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Man U got the win against Norwich 3-1.

And Arsenal - who couldn't defend against butter - claimed a draw of 2-2 against Crystal Palace, having led by 2-0 at one stage.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Man U got the win against Norwich 3-1.

How Norwich have fallen since that win over Man City...they have never been able to get the defense to tighten up enough to keep themselves in matches. I like their style, but against defensive and / or counterattacking teams they are simply too vulnerable.

 

[JamesMike]

Will watch Arsenal/Liverpool and Chelsea/Man U today.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Will watch Arsenal/Liverpool and Chelsea/Man U today.

Tough match for you and Arsenal. But you never know who get played in these cup games.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I glanced at the football some time ago, at a time when the match (Arsenal v Liverpool) was all of seven minutes old - and saw that Arsenal had leaked an idiotic own goal after a mere six minutes.

I sighed and instead put much thought into how to prepare the most delicious hot chocolate I have had this year (which I am now sipping, ages later).

Then, I sneak a peek at the match: It was a totally ludicrous 4-4.

And now, it seems Arsenal lead 5-4.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Of course, that stupid defence couldn't hold out to the end.

So, the match ends at a perfectly ludicrous but wonderfully bizarrely improbable 5-5.

Penalties next, I believe.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Consider me surprised that Arsenal lost the penalty shootout.........

 

[Lord Blackadder]

That was a wild match at Anfield - both teams with some suicidal defending and heroic goals, good young players on show for both sides. I am still not all that bothered about the league cup as a competition, but seeing promising youth players and prospects take to the pitch is interesting, and Liverpool v Arsenal is usually an exciting fixture.

Much will be made of Liverpool's winning mentality seeing them through, and you could argue that Arsenal blew a lead again - but on the other hand they also kept fighting, scored five goals at Anfield and lost the match by the narrowest of margins. Still, the mood at Arsenal is not good for a variety of reasons. The only thing that will save Emery going forward are results.

Liverpool's schedule over the next two months is crazy - something like 15 matches in four competitions. This is just asking for trouble in terms of injuries.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Interesting half time results. Not good for my lot.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well into the second half, it appears that Newcastle now lead West Ham by three goals to one, whereas Manchester City has (just) equalised against Southampton.

As of now, Liverpool are a goal behind to Aston Villa.

Earlier in the day, Manchester United lost one-nil to Bournemouth.

And, just now, Arsenal - who had been leading Wolves by a goal to nil (I didn't dare write about it, because I do not trust Arsenal not to concede until the 99th minute of a match has passed), had what the Guardian described as "a lapse in concentration from Arsenal at the back (no, really)" which allowed Wolves to equalise. Oh, Arsenal.

 

[JamesMike]

My Man U team is trying my patience. At least I have World Cup rugby to cheer.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

My Man U team is trying my patience. At least I have World Cup rugby to cheer.

My patience is stretched to almost snapping point with Arsenal's buttery and porous defence.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

My Arsenal-supporting friend's text after the match: "I hate soccer."

Liverpool once again get the result at the death. It's another morale-boosting finish but only after a sloppy start. Liverpool were the better team and deserved to win but that alone is not always good enough to actually take the points. Man City played out a very similar win to keep the title race right where it was at the start of the weekend.

My Man U team is trying my patience. At least I have World Cup rugby to cheer.

Good final. I had to avoid looking at the internet all morning before watching it so as to avoid spoilers.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

My Arsenal-supporting friend's text after the match: "I hate soccer."

No, at times, rather than hating soccer, I hate Arsenal.

Rather, - and yes, I know Emery needs time - and yes, I know players are human and mistakes are made - but with Arsenal, neither the problems nor the mistakes are new.

It is that the mistakes remain the same, match after match, season after season: That brittle, porous defence that couldn't defend against butter; the lack of sustained concentration at the back; the lack of leadership on the pitch; and the lack of mental strength.

As against that, they have an excellent attack, and are showing a bit more mental strength - not completely disintegrating and losing their shape and wilting when they go behind - than they did under the last few seasons under Mr Wenger.

Liverpool once again get the result at the death. It's another morale-boosting finish but only after a sloppy start. Liverpool were the better team and deserved to win but that alone is not always good enough to actually take the points. Man City played out a very similar win to keep the title race right where it was at the start of the weekend.

Liverpool have what it takes to become Premiership Champions this year; winning the Champions' League last season (and making the final the year before) has added to their confidence.

Grinding out - and being able to grind out - wins in unpromising situations - as much as sustained style and flair in attack and defence - is what differentiates champions from the rest.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

As against that, they have an excellent attack, and are showing a bit more mental strength - not completely disintegrating and losing their shape and wilting when they go behind - than they did under the last few seasons under Mr Wenger.

As it stands, I think Emery is a goner after this season. Football is very short-termist, and a small but vocal group of fans are already braying for his head. He has made some improvements but also some debatable choices. I think he has used up all the time he will be given. Now he has to deliver results. He has to finish in the Champions League spots or win a competition.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

As it stands, I think Emery is a goner after this season. Football is very short-termist, and a small but vocal group of fans are already braying for his head. He has made some improvements but also some debatable choices. I think he has used up all the time he will be given. Now he has to deliver results. He has to finish in the Champions League spots or win a competition.

The problem is not that Arsenal are making mistakes (that awfully brittle and clueless defence) it is that they are making the same mistakes all of the time, and are learning nothing from these mistakes.

Recruiting Leno was an excellent move - any team with ambition needs an exceptionally good keeper.

However, Leno has not been well served or protected by his defence.

Moreover, more than a quarter of the way into his second season, I am surprised that Emery has not done more to address those now notorious defensive frailties, not just the sheer comical physical ineptitude, but - worse - that characteristic mental lack of focus and sleepy sloppiness that ill becomes well-paid professional footballers.

Likewise, I am not sure that he is capable of getting the best - or persuading the players to give of their - from either Mesut Ozil and Granit Xhaka.

On a slightly more positive note, Bellerin and Holding seem to be recovering, and hopefully, both will return to the first team fairly soon.

Football is very short termist, agreed, but Arsenal have a tradition of giving their managers time, sometimes, it could be argued, too much time. In general, this is not a club with a cult of axing managers on spurious or suspiciously swift grounds.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Likewise, I am not sure that he is capable of getting the best - or persuading the players to give of their - from either Mesut Ozil and Granit Xhaka.

Whatever has caused Emery to bench Ozil, I think it was ultimately a mistake. Ozil is too good (and too expensive) to not be playing. I also think (along with many others) that Torreira should be used to protect the defense rather than creating higher up the pitch. He might be suitable for both roles, but at the moment Arsenal need help at the back

Football is very short termist, agreed, but Arsenal have a tradition of giving their managers time, sometimes, it could be argued, too much time. In general, this is not a club with a cult of axing managers on spurious or suspiciously swift grounds.

Man Utd also had a tradition of giving their managers time, but that "tradition" was ruthlessly jettisoned post-Ferg in the cynical, high-stakes, business-driven environment of 2010s professional football. Arsenal will follow the same path. Wenger was the last of the old guard of long-term managers, and there may never be another like that at any club in England's top flight. Klopp and Guardiola have served as long as they have only because they have continually gotten results - but neither will serve anywhere near as long as Ferguson or Wenger. That was a different era.

These days, the "time" a manger is given is measured in months or even weeks, not seasons. So while the Arsenal suits do not, at the moment, have a habit of sacking managers, they may quickly develop a taste for it in an environment that encourages little else. Arsenal has had one manager in the last twenty-odd years. Over the next twenty we may easily see ten times that number occupy the Arsenal hot seat.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Whatever has caused Emery to bench Ozil, I think it was ultimately a mistake. Ozil is too good (and too expensive) to not be playing. I also think (along with many others) that Torreira should be used to protect the defense rather than creating higher up the pitch. He might be suitable for both roles, but at the moment Arsenal need help at the back



Man Utd also had a tradition of giving their managers time, but that "tradition" was ruthlessly jettisoned post-Ferg in the cynical, high-stakes, business-driven environment of 2010s professional football. Arsenal will follow the same path. Wenger was the last of the old guard of long-term managers, and there may never be another like that at any club in England's top flight. Klopp and Guardiola have served as long as they have only because they have continually gotten results - but neither will serve anywhere near as long as Ferguson or Wenger. That was a different era.

These days, the "time" a manger is given is measured in months or even weeks, not seasons. So while the Arsenal suits do not, at the moment, have a habit of sacking managers, they may quickly develop a taste for it in an environment that encourages little else. Arsenal has had one manager in the last twenty-odd years. Over the next twenty we may easily see ten times that number occupy the Arsenal hot seat.

Nevertheless, both Klopp and Guardiola were given sufficient time by the suits in their respective establishments to bed themselves in, feel their way, analyse the squads that they had (and plan for the squads that they needed) and examine - closely - what needed to be done, - before setting about putting in place the steps to achieve it.

This was a process that took a full season for Guardiola, and more than a season for Klopp; and this was because they both knew what they wanted and needed to do (something I do wonder about Emery, at the time, I think I would have preferred Tuchel to have been appointed) before being able to deliver some form of success.

Agree re Ozil - he is too good to be left languish on the benches, and should somehow be integrated into the structure of the team, and agree that Torreira should be used to a greater extent to protect and support the defence.

For now, while Arsenal's culture is benignly conservative re dispensing with the services of managers, there are some other positions behind the manager where thought ought to be given to appointing qualified, and experienced individuals with the necessary net-works and knowledge and judgment.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Good win for Leicester at Palace today. They are having a really excellent season so far (better than their title winning season at this stage) and Vardy is racking up the goals.

Nevertheless, both Klopp and Guardiola were given sufficient time by the suits in their respective establishments to bed themselves in, feel their way, analyse the squads that they had (and plan for the squads that they needed) and examine - closely - what needed to be done, - before setting about putting in place the steps to achieve it.

This was a process that took a full season for Guardiola, and more than a season for Klopp; and this was because they both knew what they wanted and needed to do (something I do wonder about Emery, at the time, I think I would have preferred Tuchel to have been appointed) before being able to deliver some form of success.

I agree that Klopp and Guardiola were given time (by today's standards). And I think you hit on where Emery is not hitting their level - he is not successfully communicating his vision to the squad, to the fans, and perhaps to the club. Klopp is passionate, avuncular, charismatic and articulate; Guardiola is studious, dedicated and gives off the impression of a genius artist. They have excellent resources but there is also no doubt over how they build and employ their football teams. Emery seems tense and cagey by comparison, and his actions haven't given us enough to see what his bigger vision looks like. If people understood better what he was trying to do, perhaps he'd have more support.

Agree re Ozil - he is too good to be left languish on the benches, and should somehow be integrated into the structure of the team, and agree that Torreira should be used to a greater extent to protect and support the defence.

For now, while Arsenal's culture is benignly conservative re dispensing with the services of managers, there are some other positions behind the manager where thought ought to be given to appointing qualified, and experienced individuals with the necessary net-works and knowledge and judgment.

To be sure, sacking Emery won't necessarily make things better, and there are plenty of other ways to improve things. Arsenal still may win something this season, or finish fourth, in which case the doubters will be moderated if not silenced. Arsenal have only lost one league match this season and are currently fifth in the league, so it's not like they are in crisis.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

They have lost two matches so far this season.

In truth, these defeats aren't the problem, it is the lack of communication of a vision, - or, the inability of the team to be able to implement such a vision, and the fact that the same defensive mistakes seem to be on an endlessly repeating loop, with lessons never learned, understood, or applied.

Actually, I suspect Emery was recruited because of his known - and very successful - track record in the Europa Cup, and he did indeed manage to steer Arsenal to the final of that competition last year. Unfortunately, they were unable to achieve victory once there, and, in truth never looked likely to do so.

However, just today, I have read the sort of unconvincing denial that sets my teeth on edge, both for the fact of the unconvincing denial, and the nature of what has been denied: For, Arsenal have denied that they have been in discussions with Mr Mourinho.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

They have lost two matches so far this season.

In truth, these defeats aren't the problem, it is the lack of communication of a vision, - or, the inability of the team to be able to implement such a vision, and the fact that the same defensive mistakes seem to be on an endlessly repeating loop, with lessons never learned, understood, or applied.

Actually, I suspect Emery was recruited because of his known - and very successful - track record in the Europa Cup, and he did indeed manage to steer Arsenal to the final of that competition last year. Unfortunately, they were unable to achieve victory once there, and, in truth never looked likely to do so.

However, just today, I have read the sort of unconvincing denial that sets my teeth on edge, both for the fact of the unconvincing denial, and the nature of what has been denied: For, Arsenal have denied that they are been in discussions with Mr Mourinho.

I though the loss against Sheffield United was the only league loss? I didn't check that, however.

Mourinho...ah, now there is a fellow with a very clear vision. No surprises with Mourinho. Of course, Mourinho's vision and the kind of football he produces is also the direct opposite of pretty much everything that makes Arsenal Arsenal. If the club are even half-seriously considering him, I'd say that that is credible evidence that somebody at Arsenal Football Club has gone mad.