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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
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In a coffee shop.
Not even Liverpool's worst detractors will chalk their record up solely to lucky VAR calls. Klopp has spent a handful of (well-resourced) years building this squad and we are now seeing the fruits of that. Klopp is not perfect, but in terms of transfers, tactics, player management and personal deportment he's gotten it right much more often than not, and he's also been supported by the club.

(Warning - VAR-related ranting)

Sheffield United just had a goal chalked off for a very marginal offside, and City went on to score and are thus currently winning 1-0. Should be 1-1, according to the VAR conspiracy theorists...but if that's true, the VAR-haters are effectively arguing that the offside rule is wrong...maybe an attacking players should be allowed to be a little bit offside, they say...because the "offside by an armpit" calls just aren't common sense. The game's gone!

The problem here is that VAR is great at measuring things that the naked eye cannot see in real time, and I honestly can't think of a fair alternative to the rule as written. If we relax it, how much? An inch? a foot? How do we consistently measure that? Will that be fairer from the fans' perspective?

VAR solves some problems and creates new ones. Welcome to real life. VAR is successful as a technology, but it does fail on one key count - it does NOT reduce the number controversial refereeing decisions, it simply adds a new factor for people to complain about.

Society, inside and outside football, is still (wrongly) convinced that we can employ technology to solve social issues. People complain about calls as much out of tribal loyalty and passion as from a genuine concern over fairness. No technology will ever end the bellyaching.

In general, I favour VAR, and - as with any form of technology - I imagine that as it becomes more familiar, and teams (and managers and their back-room teams) become accustomed to it and used to it, and learn to plan for it and adapt to it, that conventions, and understandings and guidelines will grow as to how it should be used.

It does seem to have curtailed some of the worst fouls, and that dreadful practice of diving, and it most certainly has advantages.

As you say, it solves some problems and creates new ones.

Adjusting and adapting to the new problems posed by VAR will take a couple of seasons, but I expect that VAR (ranting of old-timers notwithstanding) is here to stay, and how it is used will probably be tweaked in the light of a season's experience of operating with this system.

Notwithstanding all that, it is clear that Liverpool are as good as Manchester City were both last season and the season before, if not better.

People forget how good they were last season, losing by a single point to Manchester City, having lost one game all season, and claiming the Champion's League, when they had been runners-up the previous year.

Their biggest problem is neither nerves nor confidence - winning the Champion's League will have done marvels for their confidence - but the possibility of serious injuries to players in key positions at a stage in the season when that may still have an effect or impact on results.
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,670
5,503
Sod off
I am neither pro-VAR or anti-VAR at this point, though I have gone back and forth on it in the past. It's not always implemented very effectively, and I don't think the people who made the decision to implement VAR made an unassailable argument for it's introduction. But I do agree that it is likely here to stay, and complaining about an armpit being offside, VAR delays, and delayed or truncated celebrations is just going to be part of the game going forward.

One last observation on VAR before shutting up about it: I don't think it transforms the way the matches are played as much as it transforms the experience of watching a match, and the conversations we have afterwards. It certainly gives us more to complain about!
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
46,644
In a coffee shop.
I am neither pro-VAR or anti-VAR at this point, though I have gone back and forth on it in the past. It's not always implemented very effectively, and I don't think the people who made the decision to implement VAR made an unassailable argument for it's introduction. But I do agree that it is likely here to stay, and complaining about an armpit being offside, VAR delays, and delayed or truncated celebrations is just going to be part of the game going forward.

One last observation on VAR before shutting up about it: I don't think it transforms the way the matches are played as much as it transforms the experience of watching a match, and the conversations we have afterwards. It certainly gives us more to complain about!

But every new change in - or to - the game - whether tactical or technological - gives rise to complaints, from fans, players, and indeed, ex-players turned pundits among others.

Eventually, teams will adapt to this.
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,670
5,503
Sod off
Interested to see how Moyes does at West Ham. He's had an up-and-down career since making his reputation at Everton, but he is a solid, experienced manager. Then again, so was Pellegrini...
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
46,644
In a coffee shop.
Interested to see how Moyes does at West Ham. He's had an up-and-down career since making his reputation at Everton, but he is a solid, experienced manager. Then again, so was Pellegrini...

I imagine that he will ensure that they are not threatened by relation, which is his real (if unstated) task, even if the public narrative is one of a style of football that the fans will approve of and applaud.
 

ScrumpyDaniel

macrumors 6502
Apr 15, 2019
268
285
Well Ipswich are doing our best to royally balls up our season. No wins in the league since early November, We're currently in relegation form. Still 4th and a long way to go but i'm seriously concerned that we're going to get stuck in League 1 which financially will be awful for us going forward.

Paul Lambert has brought his future into question as well. We aruably have the strongest squad in the league but he isn't getting them playing. There's no system or anything to our play, and his rotation policy has caused massive rifts between fans. The players don't know who their playing with from game to game so there's no chance of any momentum or consistency being built up!
 
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pachyderm

macrumors G4
Jan 12, 2008
10,085
5,006
Smyrna, TN
Well Ipswich are doing our best to royally balls up our season. No wins in the league since early November, We're currently in relegation form. Still 4th and a long way to go but i'm seriously concerned that we're going to get stuck in League 1 which financially will be awful for us going forward.

Paul Lambert has brought his future into question as well. We aruably have the strongest squad in the league but he isn't getting them playing. There's no system or anything to our play, and his rotation policy has caused massive rifts between fans. The players don't know who their playing with from game to game so there's no chance of any momentum or consistency being built up!

At least you don't suspect your team of throwing matches like I do...
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,577
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Behind the Lens, UK
Moyes again it is then. Hope it turns out to be the right appointment. We’ve spent a lot of money but haven’t got much to show for it.
But then many clubs can say the same. When two or three clubs dominate the country there isn’t much silverware to go around for the rest of us.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
46,644
In a coffee shop.
Moyes again it is then. Hope it turns out to be the right appointment. We’ve spent a lot of money but haven’t got much to show for it.
But then many clubs can say the same. When two or three clubs dominate the country there isn’t much silverware to go around for the rest of us.

Yes, but a decade ago neither Manchester City nor Liverpool were dominating anything; and two decades ago, Chelsea hadn't been seen with serious silverware for the best part of half a century. And Leicester were a pleasant surprise, - a breath of fresh air - the year they won the Premiership.

So, it is not just a matter of availability of vast sums of money, funds, resources, it is also a matter of how such things are used or intelligently deployed, when purchasing players, for example.

And clubs such as Wolves and Sheffield United have shown that it is perfectly possible - without being home to a veritable avalanche of so-called stars - to play well, do well, and perform far better than anyone might have expected with a good manager, a team who are committed to that manager's vision and who play for one another and are prepared to work hard and play together as a coherent unit.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,577
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Behind the Lens, UK
Yes, but a decade ago neither Manchester City nor Liverpool were dominating anything; and two decades ago, Chelsea hadn't been seen with serious silverware for the best part of half a century. And Leicester were a pleasant surprise, - a breath of fresh air - the year they won the Premiership.

So, it is not just a matter of availability of vast sums of money, funds, resources, it is also a matter of how such things are used or intelligently deployed, when purchasing players, for example.

And clubs such as Wolves and Sheffield United have shown that it is perfectly possible - without being home to a veritable avalanche of so-called stars - to play well, do well, and perform far better than anyone might have expected with a good manager, a team who are committed to that manager's vision and who play for one another and are prepared to work hard and play together as a coherent unit.
Indeed. That’s why it’s the beautiful game. Nothing is ever a foregone conclusion. Anyone can beat anyone else on their day.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
46,644
In a coffee shop.
Indeed. That’s why it’s the beautiful game. Nothing is ever a foregone conclusion. Anyone can beat anyone else on their day.

Now, I am perfectly aware that some of the clubs I have mentioned have had bottomless amounts of cash and resources poured into them; yet, such resources need to be spent intelligently and players targeted strategically for such resources to actually pay dividends.

Subjective stuff such as character - is the player (no matter how gifted and skilled and well-remunerated) committed and willing to work to improve his game, and is he willing to work on the pitch and support team mates, and take responsibility not just for his own position, but for the team at large - still matters.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,577
53,510
Behind the Lens, UK
Now, I am perfectly aware that some of the clubs I have mentioned have had bottomless amounts of cash and resources poured into them; yet, such resources need to be spent intelligently and players targeted strategically for such resources to actually pay dividends.

Subjective stuff such as character - is the player (no matter how gifted and skilled and well-remunerated) committed and willing to work to improve his game, and is he willing to work on the pitch and support team mates, and take responsibility not just for his own position, but for the team at large - still matters.
I’m afraid we’ve had less of those over the years. More of the happy to take a wage and cause havoc in the dressing room
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
46,644
In a coffee shop.
I’m afraid we’ve had less of those over the years. More of the happy to take a wage and cause havoc in the dressing room

Ahem, I think I feel your pain on that particular subject, to a certain extent.

Having said that, it is also down to scouting, recruiting, and how and whether clubs appoint Directors of Football, and/or whether (and to what extent) managers, or "head coaches" (a signal that the manager ultimately is not in charge, or has little say in whom the club chooses to recruit or buy) have an input into what players are bought - and, if they do - whether they know what they are doing, and to what extent they enjoy the confidence of the board of the club.

Mind you, maybe I am old-fashioned about such things, but I cannot conceive of why someone on five figures a week (or, worse, on six figures a week) would not want to give absolutely everything on the pitch and on the training ground, (and indeed, in the dressing room, as well), out of pride and professionalism if nothing else, not least as you are actually earning your money doing something you like and at which you are not just good, but preternaturally gifted.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,577
53,510
Behind the Lens, UK
In my experience our best players have usually been those that we have brought through our academy. But we certainly seem to have a lot less success there than we did in the past. Lampard/Defoe/Cole/Ferdinand/Carrick and many others all benefited from coming through or being brought into our Youth set up.
But then we seemed to bring in too many has beens that were happy to take a wage regardless of whether they made it into the pitch (including your last manager!).
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,214
46,644
In a coffee shop.
In my experience our best players have usually been those that we have brought through our academy. But we certainly seem to have a lot less success there than we did in the past. Lampard/Defoe/Cole/Ferdinand/Carrick and many others all benefited from coming through or being brought into our Youth set up.
But then we seemed to bring in too many has beens that were happy to take a wage regardless of whether they made it into the pitch (including your last manager!).

Which one?

Neither Emery nor Arteta ever played for West Ham, as far as I know.

Oooops: Edit: Of course, our (briefly appointed) Acting Manager was who you had in mind, I think.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,577
53,510
Behind the Lens, UK
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