Other The iPhone 15 2X telephoto scam

[motrek]

Read the whole sentence.
If that same sensor had a moving lens that allows 2X picture, using the whole frame, pictures would be better.

Yeah, no s**t it would be better.

Who cares.

Now you're not even talking about what "optical zoom" means, you're just blithering on about what you think Apple should have done instead with the iPhone 15, which is tangential to your original point at best.

 

[motrek]

The process is the same as a digital crop i just explained.
On the pre 14 phone you get from a 12MP sensor a 3MP „zoomed“ pic and on the new 48MP you’ll get 12MP.

Except that you don't get a 48MP image from the new iPhone, do you?

You get a 12MP image, or a 24MP image, I forget which. I think maybe 24MP. It doesn't really matter.

So with the 1x setting, you get a 24MP image from a 48MP sensor, downsampled from the entire sensor. Great.

With the 2x setting, you get a 24MP image from a 24MP section of the sensor. Nothing is downsampled, nothing is upsampled, nothing is cropped, nothing has anything to do with any "digital crop" process. Everything you've posted is either wrong or unrelated or irrelevant.

 

[applepotato666]

Definitely something irked me this year with the "seven lenses" being advertised. Lenses are physical and I don't see 7 of them on the back. It's not optical zoom but it never was. It used to be a separate fixed focal length lens that you switch to and now it's digital crop from a higher MP sensor. No way around it. Still I much prefer it to a bad secondary camera with a bigger focal length that you can only use in perfect lighting. I'm sure it's legal to advertise that way as there are no legal definitions but the more photography educated among us could find it funny.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Yeah, no s**t it would be better.

Who cares.

Now you're not even talking about what "optical zoom" means, you're just blithering on about what you think Apple should have done instead with the iPhone 15, which is tangential to your original point at best.

It's getting pretty frustrating to repeat stuff I've said.
I never said they should have done that. I know they can't (without a bigger bump or a smaller sensor that would make all pictures worse). I like the solution they adopted.
All I'm saying is that the sentence "our main sensor has 2X optical zoom" has that meaning and no other possible true meaning. I'm very much still talking about the meaning of "optical zoom" and if you forget that, you won't understand a word I say.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Definitely something irked me this year with the "seven lenses" being advertised. Lenses are physical and I don't see 7 of them on the back. It's not optical zoom but it never was. It used to be a separate fixed focal length lens that you switch to and now it's digital crop from a higher MP sensor. No way around it. Still I much prefer it to a bad secondary camera with a bigger focal length that you can only use in perfect lighting. I'm sure it's legal to advertise that way as there are no legal definitions but the more photography educated among us could find it funny.

I don't like the "lenses" or calling the mode "telephoto" either but I'm drawing the legal line at "optical" because it seems to confuse a lot more people and because the worst lie is in the specs list and not just in the marketing stuff (where they've actually much more careful, just saying stuff like "optical-quality").
I think they could have found a way to explain non-experts how good it is without using technically wrong terms. Or just saying the real things in the specs list most people ignore...

 

[maerz001]

Except that you don't get a 48MP image from the new iPhone, do you?

You get a 12MP image, or a 24MP image, I forget which. I think maybe 24MP. It doesn't really matter.

So with the 1x setting, you get a 24MP image from a 48MP sensor, downsampled from the entire sensor. Great.

With the 2x setting, you get a 24MP image from a 24MP section of the sensor. Nothing is downsampled, nothing is upsampled, nothing is cropped, nothing has anything to do with any "digital crop" process. Everything you've posted is either wrong or unrelated or irrelevant.

1st of course you get the full 48MP with RAW.
The standard setting 1x downsamples as u correctly said to 24MP. This is mainly done to save storage space.

2nd the 2x will only give 12MP even with RAW. Not 24. and thats why the OP and I say it’s digital „zoom“ or cropping.

Would it be optical you would also get 48MP in RAW.

Apple could do with the same sensor also a 4x zoom and give a 3MP. Or a 8x zoom resulting in 0.7MP. All same principle. you would call this optical zoom?
Whats so hard to understand?

 

[StudioMacs]

I don't like the "lenses" or calling the mode "telephoto" either but I'm drawing the legal line at "optical" because it seems to confuse a lot more people and because the worst lie is in the specs list and not just in the marketing stuff (where they've actually much more careful, just saying stuff like "optical-quality").
I think they could have found a way to explain non-experts how good it is without using technically wrong terms. Or just saying the real things in the specs list most people ignore...

What you are complaining about is exactly how professional DSLR cameras work.

If you put a 55mm Canon EF lens on a Canon EOS Rebel T7, you get a different crop on the Rebel’s APS-C sensor than if you put the same 55mm Canon EF lens on a full frame sensor Canon 5D.

The same 55mm lens will give a narrower field of view on the Canon EOS Rebel’s APS-C sensor than on the Canon 5D’s full-frame sensor.

The narrower field of view on the Rebel is not a result of digital zoom, even though the effect is to produce the field of view of an 88mm lens from a 55mm lens.

Failing to understand basic concepts of photography predating the iPhone doesn’t make them a “scam.”

 

[scrane]

The main benefit of the Iphone 15 camera is creative (misleading) marketing and technical gobbledygook.

 

[cthompson94]

As you stated they used the term "optical quality"

What you are complaining about is exactly how professional DSLR cameras work.

If you put a 55mm Canon EF lens on a Canon EOS Rebel T7, you get a different crop on the Rebel’s APS-C sensor than if you put the same 55mm Canon EF lens on a full frame sensor Canon 5D.

The same 55mm lens will give a narrower field of view on the Canon EOS Rebel’s APS-C sensor than on the Canon 5D’s full-frame sensor.

The narrower field of view on the Rebel is not a result of digital zoom, even though the effect is to produce the field of view of an 88mm lens from a 55mm lens.

Failing to understand basic concepts of photography predating the iPhone doesn’t make them a “scam.”

Agreed, especially in your example with taking a APS-C lens and putting it on a full frame camera will have the "1.5x" crop but is still "optical quality"

 

[motrek]

It's getting pretty frustrating to repeat stuff I've said.
I never said they should have done that. I know they can't (without a bigger bump or a smaller sensor that would make all pictures worse). I like the solution they adopted.
All I'm saying is that the sentence "our main sensor has 2X optical zoom" has that meaning and no other possible true meaning. I'm very much still talking about the meaning of "optical zoom" and if you forget that, you won't understand a word I say.

Oh okay. So the only way they could claim optical zoom is if they had a moving lens. Got it.

Meaning that no iPhone has ever had optical zoom.

I'm not really opposed to that argument, but I'm also certain that's not what you meant to say.

 

[motrek]

1st of course you get the full 48MP with RAW.
The standard setting 1x downsamples as u correctly said to 24MP. This is mainly done to save storage space.

2nd the 2x will only give 12MP even with RAW. Not 24. and thats why the OP and I say it’s digital „zoom“ or cropping.
...

Zoom is not the same as cropping.

For god's sake, how many times does this have to be explained to you people.

Digital zoom requires upsampling. That's in every definition of digital zoom.

If the 2x images are only 12MP instead of the normal 24MP then it's downsampling even more than usual. For god's sake, it's the literal opposite of digital zoom.

 

[dallegre]

What you are complaining about is exactly how professional DSLR cameras work.

If you put a 55mm Canon EF lens on a Canon EOS Rebel T7, you get a different crop on the Rebel’s APS-C sensor than if you put the same 55mm Canon EF lens on a full frame sensor Canon 5D.

The same 55mm lens will give a narrower field of view on the Canon EOS Rebel’s APS-C sensor than on the Canon 5D’s full-frame sensor.

The narrower field of view on the Rebel is not a result of digital zoom, even though the effect is to produce the field of view of an 88mm lens from a 55mm lens.

Failing to understand basic concepts of photography predating the iPhone doesn’t make them a “scam.”

Many SLRs and MILCs have crop mode that can be used with 35mm coverage lenses or APS-C lenses. Using an APS-C lens or a digital crop with a 35mm (FF) lens is not the same thing as doubling the focal length on a FF lens (optical zoom). The image must be scaled up per pixel at the same image presentation size, thus reducing relative quality.

I know exactly what you're talking about and crop mode or cropping the image size on a digital sensor has never been considered "optical zoom" by professional or enthusiast photographers as far as I have heard in the last 15 years or so.

Even though the software in the camera is not scaling up the pixels (one definition of digital zoom) this effectively happens once the image is presented at a relative size on a digital screen (or in print).

 

[cicalinarrot]

Oh okay. So the only way they could claim optical zoom is if they had a moving lens. Got it.

Meaning that no iPhone has ever had optical zoom.

I'm not really opposed to that argument, but I'm also certain that's not what you meant to say.

Once again, not what I said. I clearly said they could call it optics if there's a moving lens or a different lens with another sensor responsible for the zoom. But since I were talking about the same sensor, that had to be the only solution to make their words mean what they claim. You keep extracting a small part of what I say and forgetting the rest.

The narrower field of view on the Rebel is not a result of digital zoom, even though the effect is to produce the field of view of an 88mm lens from a 55mm lens.

Cool. And in the case of the iPhone, the narrower field of view is a result of only using some of the pixels as clearly stated by Apple, with the same lens and the same sensor. The processed image is exactly the same 48MP one, downsampled to 24 if you use 1X, cropped if you use the zoom. All digital.

 

[cicalinarrot]

As you stated they used the term "optical quality"

Agreed, especially in your example with taking a APS-C lens and putting it on a full frame camera will have the "1.5x" crop but is still "optical quality"

They used "optical quality" in the keynote, many times. Possibly confusing but acceptable.
But on their website they just call it Telephoto, never say "optical-quality", and if you go to the specifications, it just says it's an "optical zoom".

 

[StudioMacs]

Even though the software in the camera is not scaling up the pixels (one definition of digital zoom) this effectively happens once the image is presented at a relative size on a digital screen (or in print).

This is true of any image, and has nothing to do with image capture.

The iPhone 15 is capturing a true 12 MP image which is 4032 pixels wide by 3024 pixels tall.

That is higher resolution than the display on the iPhone 15 and 15 plus.

The 4032 x 3024 image at its native resolution will give a high definition print size of 13.4 inches x 10.1 inches @ 300DPI.

 

[dallegre]

Even though the software in the camera is not scaling up the pixels (one definition of digital zoom) this effectively happens once the image is presented at a relative size on a digital screen (or in print).

Another way to put this: If you have a 1x image on your phone screen, and you crop to the center of that image so you have a 2x image, then display that image to fill the screen, how did you get there? You zoomed...digitally.

 

[StudioMacs]

Cool. And in the case of the iPhone, the narrower field of view is a result of only using some of the pixels as clearly stated by Apple, with the same lens and the same sensor. The processed image is exactly the same 48MP one, downsampled to 24 if you use 1X, cropped if you use the zoom. All digital.

Correct. It doesn’t use film. A+

Every iPhone is digital.

You don’t know enough about this subject to avoid appearing foolish.

The image is not being digitally enlarged. Period.

 

[StudioMacs]

Another way to put this: If you have a 1x image on your phone screen, and you crop to the center of that image so you have a 2x image, then display that image to fill the screen, how did you get there? You zoomed...digitally.

What is the resolution of the image? Did you lose image quality or not? If you have a 4K monitor, the 2x image viewed full screen may still be higher resolution than your display.

You’re confusing image capture with image reproduction.

I could also view a 48 megapixel image on my display at 25% or 150% without affecting the image.

 

[dallegre]

This is true of any image, and has nothing to do with image capture.

Image capture is half of the equation. Any processing that happens between capture and presentation, whether it's in camera or not, is part of the chain. A cropped sensor image requires additional scaling vs a non-cropped image at some point in the chain. You created an optically smaller image and presented it at the same relative size as an optically larger image. It was scaled, aka zoomed.

 

[dallegre]

What is the resolution of the image? Did you lose image quality or not?

You’re confusing image capture with image reproduction.

Yes, you lose resolution vs the full sensor image. That's the point. You're getting fewer pixels from a smaller portion of the optic.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Yes. It doesn’t use film. Every iPhone is digital. You don’t know enough about this subject to avoid appearing foolish.

I'm not sure where to start. But you seem to ignore the different between analog and digital. And you think digital means "not using film". It does in the context of calling a camera "digital" instead of "analog". Not while discussing the process of taking a digital picture.
Digital photography has an analog component. A big one. The way the light is directed to the sensor through lenses is not digital, it's about redirecting photons.
Then the sensor registers the light and sends it to a processor that does things with it.
The optical zoom happens optically. It's analog. Even if we're talking about digital photography. It has to do with the way you use lenses to get a different image to the sensor.
All that happens to the image after it gets to the sensor is digital.
I hope now you know enough about this subject to avoid appearing foolish

 

[StudioMacs]

I'm not sure where to start. But you seem to ignore the different between analog and digital. And you think digital means "not using film". It does in the context of calling a camera "digital" instead of "analog". Not while discussing the process of taking a digital picture.
Digital photography has an analog component. A big one. The way the light is directed to the sensor through lenses is not digital, it's about redirecting photons.
Then the sensor registers the light and sends it to a processor that does things with it.
The optical zoom happens optically. It's analog. Even if we're talking about digital photography. It has to do with the way you use lenses to get a different image to the sensor.
All that happens to the image after it gets to the sensor is digital.
I hope now you know enough about this subject to avoid appearing foolish

There is no optical zoom on any smartphone. Period. They all use prime lenses.

 

[cthompson94]

They used "optical quality" in the keynote, many times. Possibly confusing but acceptable.
But on their website they just call it Telephoto, never say "optical-quality", and if you go to the specifications, it just says it's an "optical zoom".

I think the key thing is the term "lens" is never used. I would certainly agree if anywhere it was mentioned of a 2x lens or telephoto lens, and yes using the term "optical quality" may rub people (such as yourself) the wrong way, but that is marketing plain and simple. Do you get equally upset to things boasting "military grade" because as someone who has served in the military...do you know how many different mil specs there are? so by a company labeling something as military grade they can basically pick and choose a specific mil spec that was used and just meet/exceed that. Do you also get upset with things like "#1 dentist recommended" or any of the other catchy marketing terms.

If you really want to label something as a scam such as the 2x being "optical quality", then somehow you will have to get you an iPhone that has an actual 2x lens and test it, but that is probably what Apple engineers tested.

If anything this is what I would be more upset over since I just went over the the Apple website "Now you can choose your default Main camera lens — 24 mm, 28 mm, or 35 mm — all without having to carry around extra gear. That’s the power of computational photography."

In the above I would be more irritated that it states "choose your default Main camera lens" when you are not actually changing lenses, but cropping into the sensor. This is where maybe the term "lens equivalent" should be used, if someone were to want to nit pick.

Going back to the topic at hand... in the Apple webpage it does state "It also lets you scoot in closer with an additional 2x Telephoto. The new Photonic Engine combines the best pixels from a super‑high‑resolution image with another that’s optimized for light capture. So you automatically get 24MP photos — that’s twice the resolution than before — for everyday shots with extra detail."

Since this right below the mention of 48MP, it is basically explained that you get half the resolution for the 2x, but 2x the resolution from previous models

 

[cthompson94]

There is no optical zoom on any smartphone. Period. They all use prime lenses.

The Xperia 1V actually has true optical zoom.

" The camera set-up is complemented by the ultra-wide 16mm, and the telephoto with true optical zoom between 85 and 125mm."

Edit: to add to my case and point to my last reply to OP, Sony states in their advertising true zoom and not optical quality. Sony even specifically states this "True optical zoom lens with no image degradation"

 

[dchoco]

What is the resolution of the image? Did you lose image quality or not? If you have a 4K monitor, the 2x image viewed full screen may still be higher resolution than your display.

You’re confusing image capture with image reproduction.

I could also view a 48 megapixel image on my display at 25% or 150% without affecting the image.

you get half the resolution

when shooting with 2x versus when shooting with 1x.

the only benefit i get from this 2x "zoom" is that apple helps me crop the centre of the image,

which i can do it in the photos and yield exactly the same result

might as well call it auto-crop instead of zoom