The new Mac mini is almost certainly coming

[sublunar]

Intel has some devices code named "Rocket lake" on their roadmap which appear to couple 14nm CPU die to a 10nm GFX die. That may be the first Xe ( and perhaps labeled Gen 12) graphics. But Intel doesn't have to wait until 2021+ to get to the newer graphics. Just not integrated on eh same die, but could be in the same package.

The mini logic board may not have space for an incrementally bigger CPU package if Apple keeps the Mini's dimensions cast in stone. This Rocket Lake has turned up in the U class processor swimlane on some mobile roadmaps, but I think there is a S class also. Intel did a x86+AMD GPU mash up. It is extremely likely once they have their own discrete GPU. that they will do the same thing with their own.

10 cores in the space of a mini I suspect will base clock that very few will like if implemented on Intel's 14nm.

I get the feeling that the form factor is set in stone given the likes of MacMiniColo will be placing orders en masse at regular intervals and I imagine they have some clout with Apple.

It could still be easier to access in my opinion.

That doesn't mean that future Minis won't return to mobile CPUs (with better GPUs) if the situation suits them and they wish to do such a refresh. Desktop CPUs tend to go out of service quick quickly with Intel compared to their mobile offerings and Apple would need to explain why the CPU grunt would suddenly go downhill compared to the next generation.

The AMD GPU G series chips were reviewed as running hot (and power hungry) at the time so that must explain why Apple have never used them in the 15" laptops and stuck with separate Intel + AMD GPU combinations.

 

[EightyTwenty]

The CPUs in the 2018 Mini are overkill. U series Intel chips would have been perfectly fine.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Don't need to do that, since I myself consider them "fair" because the overall value proposition of macOS is unmatched by Windows/Linux client computing for me.

Being overall positive on Apple and their products is not mutually exclusive to noting specific cases of gouging.

One person’s fair price is another person’s gouge.

People who don’t need and would never buy a $13,000 iMac Pro might call it gouging, but to those who buy them, the price is fair. Who’s right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[EightyTwenty]

You complain about me using 2014 to make my point—what year should I use, that’s the last model before the refresh—and then you go back to 2011 to try to make yours.

This isn't a difficult concept. It really isn't. I sincerely have no idea why you're continuing to struggle with it. Or maybe you're just pretending you don't understand. I'm not sure.

It's not 2014 anymore, man. Join us in 2019.

 

[PickUrPoison]

This isn't a difficult concept. It really isn't. I sincerely have no idea why you're continuing to struggle with it.

It's not 2014 anymore, man. Join us in 2019.

Yes, it’s 2019. So why use 2011 to try to support your point?

The only one struggling to understand the concept is you.

Since you’re apparently unable to refute any of the points in my post, let’s try something else.

Is there a PC with equivalent specs to a base $799 mini that’s any cheaper? Or does Apple have the best price?
[doublepost=1566773827][/doublepost]

The CPUs in the 2018 Mini are overkill. U series Intel chips would have been perfectly fine.

Are you just trolling? Perfectly fine for whom? Do you understand the target market for the mini?

 

[EightyTwenty]

Yes, it’s 2019. So why use 2011 to try to support your point?

Say the following out loud: "Technology progresses over time."

For whatever reason, you continue to pretend that you don't understand this.

And I clearly, and obviously, and plainly brought up the 2011 and 2012 Mac Minis to show that RAM doubled between 2011 and 2012 with no price increase. I. Typed. Those. Words. In. The. Post.

I'm done wasting my time with you on this topic, my friend. I've repeated myself way too many times already. I need to put you on ignore.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Say the following out loud: "Technology progresses over time."

For whatever reason, you continue to pretend you don't comprehend that simple fact.

And I clearly, and obviously, and plainly brought up the 2011 and 2012 Mac Minis to show that RAM doubled between 2011 and 2012 with no price increase. I. Typed. Those. Words. In. The. Post.

Between 2009 and 2010, there was yet another doubling of RAM with no price increase.

See how fun this is?

I'm done wasting my time with you on this topic, my friend. I've repeated myself way too many times already.

The technology in the 2018 mini is state of the art. It’s priced fairly. If you want more than 8/128, it’s available. If you just want it cheaper, then you’re simply one of the many who have complained about high prices for the last 35+ years, while those who understand the value of a Mac continue to buy them.

Apple’s selling $25 billion a year in Macs; if you’re not part of that because you think they’re too expensive, Apple’s ok with that.

 

[c0ppo]

You talk about Cook gouging in multiple product lines, but you don’t support that. If you’re complaining about iPhone, in 2013 the 5s was $649/749/849 for 16/32/64GB. The XR is $749/799/899 for 64/128/256GB. Is that gouging?

In 2013, iPhone 5s was the best possible iPhone to buy.
In 2019, iPhone Xr isn't the best possible iPhone to buy.

If you want to compare Xr, compare it to something like 5c.

 

[PickUrPoison]

In 2013, iPhone 5s was the best possible iPhone to buy.
In 2019, iPhone Xr isn't the best possible iPhone to buy.

If you want to compare Xr, compare it to something like 5c.

The XR is the direct descendant of the 5S. That Apple introduced a higher priced tier with an OLED display doesn’t change that.

What should the “best available in 2013” 5S be compared to, the best available in 2019 XS? That would make as much sense as comparing a best possible 2013 iMac to a best possible 2019 iMac Pro, or a best possible 2013 iPad to a best possible 2019 iPad Pro.

 

[PickUrPoison]

so will they brings the 8 core CPU to Mac mini this year?

Intel would first need to introduce the necessary BGA-packaged CPU, but they could do that pretty easily.

Either the 8C/8T i7-9700 or the 8C/16T i9-9900 could be re-packaged as a mobile B-type CPU; hopefully we will see an i7-9700B or an i9-9900B (or the equivalent).

 

[Heat_Fan89]

Is there a PC with equivalent specs to a base $799 mini that’s any cheaper? Or does Apple have the best price?
[doublepost=1566773827][/doublepost]
Are you just trolling? Perfectly fine for who? Do you understand the target market for the mini?

I bought a Lenovo ThinkCentre Tiny which is about the size of my 2012 Mac Mini. The specs were nearly identical to the 2018 i3 base Mini except I swapped out the HDD spinner with a Samsung M2 Storage 256GB card. Without any discounts it was around $570, with discounts it was $398 plus tax. And it flys, Windows 10 boots from the power button to desktop in less than 8 secs according to my stopwatch phone app.

 

[PickUrPoison]

I bought a Lenovo ThinkCentre Tiny which is about the size of my 2012 Mac Mini. The specs were nearly identical to the 2018 i3 base Mini except I swapped out the HDD spinner with a Samsung M2 Storage 256GB card. Without any discounts it was around $570, with discounts it was $398 plus tax. And it flys, Windows 10 boots from the power button to desktop in less than 8 secs according to my stopwatch phone app.

I like the Lenovo Tiny series, but only the 920x has anything but the 35W T-series CPUs, which have relatively low base clocks so aren’t really equivalent to the mini. I would also miss the four Thunderbolt 3 ports (and there’s no $100 10GbE option) but it has some advantages like internal M.2 drives. Not sure how fast the SSD option is. Another plus is discounts are often (always?) available, but 3-4 week delivery on BTO configs.

 

[Miat]

one of the many who have complained about high prices for the last 35+ years, while those who understand the value of a Mac continue to buy them.

2 $ OR /$, ?.

Apple's prices (almost) always make me wince and pause, and the cost factor alone had me close to switching to a Linux box 2-3 times, including recently (pre-2018 Mini).

But for the last 30 years I have always ended up buying Apple (comps). Still never owned a Windows or Linux box.

*shrugs*

 

[Heat_Fan89]

I like the Lenovo Tiny series, but only the 920x has anything but the 35W T-series CPUs, which have relatively low base clocks so aren’t really equivalent to the mini. I would also miss the four Thunderbolt 3 ports (and there’s no $100 10GbE option) but it has some advantages like internal M.2 drives. Not sure how fast the SSD option is. Another plus is discounts are often (always?) available, but 3-4 week delivery on BTO configs.

You are right, there are always trade offs and the ThinkCentre Tiny is not a Mac Mini but the specs definitely get you in the ballpark. TB3 can be a HUGE issue if you have TB3 devices, fortunately for me, I don't own any TB devices in all my years of Mac ownership. I expect the speeds of the Samsung M2 Storage card to be highly respectable. Are they up there with the soldered SSD storage in the 2018 Mini? Maybe, maybe not but it doesn't matter because like I mentioned, booting Windows 10 from the moment I press the power button to the time it takes to get to the desktop takes less than 8 secs with zero disk activity once it gets to the desktop and apps open instantaneously. Perhaps the Mini's internal storage is somewhat faster but then again i'm more than happy with the performance of my $398 purchase and I can always install a better and larger M2 storage card if it ever failed. I can't do that with a 2018 Mini because the SSD is soldered.

IIRC, it took close to a month from the time I ordered my Lenovo PC to the time it arrived so your 3-4 week BTO timeframe sounds about right. And yes, there are always promo's going on with Lenovo and rightly so as they are either the #1 or #2 PC mfg in the world. But I still have not been able to duplicate my $398 tax day order.

 

[c0ppo]

The XR is the direct descendant of the 5S. That Apple introduced a higher priced tier with an OLED display doesn’t change that.

What should the “best available in 2013” 5S be compared to, the best available in 2019 XS? That would make as much sense as comparing a best possible 2013 iMac to a best possible 2019 iMac Pro, or a best possible 2013 iPad to a best possible 2019 iPad Pro.

iPhone 5s - best possible iPhone to buy in 2013.
iPhone Xr - isn't the best possible iPhone to buy in 2019.

Spin it all you want from here

 

[toke lahti]

How did they make it harder? I saw a few YouTube tutorials for booting from a USB3 drive that made it look very easy.

I believe most mac "power users" still think that running homefolder from any drive you want is still solid choice to make.
There are so many articles on the net how to do this and of course they are not updated and really are outdated.
But macos has now so many onion skins that are secret and undocumented and Apple will not publicly tell about them: T2, sandboxing, connections to iCloud & APFS. I'd say it's quite a secure mess, but still a mess.
Like my problems with migrating Mail 10.12->10.14 tells.

First thing is of course you need to boot to recovery to allow booting from external.
Then there is this new permission repair requirement:
You can't fix home folder permission issues if the home folder is outside of startup drive.
This is how permissions are repaired with recent os versions:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203538
I had problems with that (repairing never ends, ActMon telling very slow reads/writes for tens of hours), actually, I still have those problems, even that my startup drive is now external 1TB-ssd, where my home dir also lies.
Support couldn't anser how this undocumented switch in diskutil works and does it fix folders under homedir that are symlink/softlink/hardlinked to other drives.
After long wait, I got an answer that Apple support is limited to systems where home folder is in startup drive.
Meaning, if you have homedir on external, because there's not enough space in internal for it (or all of it), you'll have to run os from external also. Leaving internal pretty useless, if you can't fit everything in it.
Btw, you can't use smartmontools on external boot drive, since external drives have to be unplugget at boot time for sat-smart-driver to work. You can't boot from an unplugged drive...
What makes me angry here is, that I bought most expensive ssd on the planet inside the mini and now I can't really use it to something that would benefit for it's price.
My idea also was that using fast internal ssd for os and external slower ssd for homedir would make the mac run at optimal speed-cost-ratio.

I'd like to find out that if in practise, the only folder of homedir that really needs to be on startup drive is ~/Lib.
But I'm so fed up and tired to work this out with Apple's support, that maybe next year. I've had this mini2018 for 5 months now and Apple still haven't fix all problems with monitors in 10.14. My LG 34WK95U-W now wakes up from sleep after .6 update, but the loudspeakers still remain silent after wakeup.
Leaving separate audio outputs from mini2018 doesn't help either...

 

[toke lahti]

Neutering SSD speeds to spite your customers is pretty low. Fusion drives are junk. A spinner with a little SSD is another joke Apple plays on us. But we’re not laughing.

Fusion drive has gave me 99% of "perceived speed of mac user experience" for many years with a fraction of cost of plain ssd. Fusion drive is really too cost-effective for apple and that's why they are axing it. Most of stuff that people have on their homedirs does not benefit from ssd speed at all: movies, videos, even photos and music.

AND let's not forget, that Apple thinks that iCloud is fast enough for our stuff in homedir.
What a genius plan to overprice non-removable and non-upgradeable storage in products and then user can either buy the same product again with more of that overpriced storage or start to pay monthly to Apple for having then in remote location with slow connection speed.
None of this would happen, if there would be competing companies produsing macos or iOS products.

I can accept the excuse for not putting fuision drive (or just more than one storage options) on every laptop Apple sells, but they could offer at least one model that could have 2 mass storages. Fusion drive works very well with fast and slow ssd also. What I don't accept is taking away 2 storages from mini, which used to have and pretending that you can't fit TWO MASS STORAGES to a DESKTOP computer.
Having only one storage in a desktop computer and soldering that to mb is just plain pure milking. Nothing else.

I just hope that "repairability act" in EU will force Apple to make non-soldered storages to desktop computers priced less than $6k in the next decade.

 

[ApplesandOranges]

Interesting how this thread has turned into a discussion about why we should be happy to pay high prices for a product just because the prices have been high for the last 35 years.

And if we don’t see the value in paying more it must be because we can’t afford it.

Seems very elitist to me.

Consider another perspective. Maybe more people are complaining about price because there are so many other companies making products with the same level of quality, with better specs for a lower price. The gap between Apple and the PC market has lessened.

Maybe those who enjoy living in Apples eco system also want a good deal just like the PC crowd enjoys.

In order to use Apple you have to pay more, and then after reading about Apple being the wealthiest company in the world resentment sets in.

And then we come here and read about people rationalizing the higher cost as if
we are a bunch of whiners who can’t afford a decent product... and should be happy to pay a premium because we “always have”.
[doublepost=1566830556][/doublepost]

I personally don't see this as much about gouging as I do the changing of the market target for the entire Mac lineup. Previous Minis were obviously consumer targeted. The new Mini has a security chip, 10G enet option, a small super high speed permanently mounted storage, etc, etc. Those are the features of a corporate / professional level SFF desktop computer. Apple themselves even said they were going to take "more of a professional direction" with the new Mini. At roughly what price range do base corporate SFF desktop computers start? Around $800 or so...

With iOS now supporting usb-c, mice, external storage along with catalyst. About all they'll need to add is a dock with several usb-c connections and multiple monitor support, then the "low-end" / consumer level iOS devices will be able to do pretty much anything a "full" computer can do

A “pro level” computer that comes with 128gb of storage. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Heat_Fan89]

A “pro level” computer that comes with 128gb of storage. Makes perfect sense.

Yeah, it's pretty insulting when you think of it. I could accept a Mac Mini with 128GB if it used a proprietary M2 Storage card but Apple chose not too. M2 Storage is pretty much available in most PC configurations and the price has dropped dramatically. Amazon recently had on sale a Samsung 512GB M2 storage card for under $100. I should have jumped on that when I had the chance.

 

[Micky Do]

You can’t compare the old model that has a 500GB HDD to a new model with a 512GB SSD to support claims of a large price increase; that’s comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, Apple eliminated lower-performance SKUs—those with 4GB RAM, HDDs and also Fusion configs. Those were the models that comprised the $499-699 price range.

The previous model in the 8GB RAM/128GB SSD config was $749; the 2018 model with that config is $799. Yeah, that’s a $50 increase (which barely covers inflation btw) but it’s a much improved, much better machine. That $50 buys a lot, albeit overkill for you.

Unfortunately, very few people want what you want—a 4GB/HDD mini. You also can’t get a 4GB, HDD, Fusion or non-retina MacBook Pro config anymore. They’re effectively obsolete and there’s little demand. You can’t expect Apple to keep those SKUs around when so few people want to buy them.

In a couple years you’ll be able to get a good deal on a used 2018 to replace your 2009 mini. That should hold you until at least 2030, maybe even 2035. I’m pretty sure that’s your best course of action, assuming you want to continue running MacOS (and you don’t want a MacBook or iMac).

Your cynicism is far from charming.

You miss my point anyway. That is that, whereas retailers, around where I am at, found it worthwhile stocking the previous generation of the Mac Mini, but no longer stock the current generation, presumably because it didn't sell when they did.

The average geek might be in awe of the increased performance over the previous generation. However, for the average Joe or Jill, not seeking to make movies and so on, a more modestly performing machine, with a decent amount of on board storage, at a more reasonable price is a more attractive proposition..... as was the case with the previous generation.

How do you know I want a 4GB/HDD Mac Mini, and don't want a MacBook? I have both already.

I prefer work on a desktop, but need to take a computer to work much more these days, so with some reluctance I bought a modestly specced MacBook Air last year. I hoped it would supplement the desktop, but it has not proved to be the case with the 2009 Mac Mini, which is stuck on El Capitan. Once updated to modern versions of apps on the Air, documents and files are not backwardly compatible.

At 10 years old my Mac Mini has done well. It is still running the original 120 GB HDD, but sooner or later that will fail. It cannot be updated beyond El Capitan, and lacks modern connectivity, so it has become obsolete, thus would not be worth repairing...... but the current Mac Mini specced with reasonable amount of storage would set me back 6 weeks pay.... not a goer I reckon.

A 500 GB HDD and a 512 GB SSD are comparable; but the amount of storage available more relevant to an me (among others) than performance. Speed of access matters for some, but from my point of view it is not a major. Once an app or file is open, it is the CPU and RAM that affect usability.....

The CPUs in the 2018 Mini are overkill. U series Intel chips would have been perfectly fine.

Sure are, from the point of view of Joe Average.

Perfectly fine for whom? Do you understand the target market for the mini?

Good question @PickUrPoison. Do you understand the target market for the Mac Mini?

I would have been, average Joe that I am...... but the current Mac Mini offering is not a fit for my budget and needs.

 

[twalk]

Interesting how this thread has turned into a discussion about why we should be happy to pay high prices for a product just because the prices have been high for the last 35 years.

And if we don’t see the value in paying more it must be because we can’t afford it.

Seems very elitist to me.

Consider another perspective. Maybe more people are complaining about price because there are so many other companies making products with the same level of quality, with better specs for a lower price. The gap between Apple and the PC market has lessened.

Maybe those who enjoy living in Apples eco system also want a good deal just like the PC crowd enjoys.

In order to use Apple you have to pay more, and then after reading about Apple being the wealthiest company in the world resentment sets in.

And then we come here and read about people rationalizing the higher cost as if
we are a bunch of whiners who can’t afford a decent product... and should be happy to pay a premium because we “always have”.
[doublepost=1566830556][/doublepost]

A “pro level” computer that comes with 128gb of storage. Makes perfect sense.

Hey, the new Mini definitely isn't designed for me either. I'd rather have just a normal, easy to reach, M2 slot for storage along with the option for cheaper "sata speed level" M2 SSDs. I'd be less happy with just a sata drive slot for a SSD, but I could live with that. Since I'm a home, "consumer" level Mac user for my personal machine, an encrypted, small size, non-removeable SSD just doesn't really make sense for me

That said, it does make sense for corporate sales and corporate sales are much of Mac sales anymore (along with the most profitable sales)

Small amount of storage? For most corporate tasks, you usually don't need much. You're instead expected to store things on the local NAS or server, both for resiliency and for sharing with other workers
High speed storage? Minis are used a lot anymore for things like iOS programming. With compile / test cycles that are pretty large anymore, high speed storage helps. In addition, you normally want storage to be faster than your network and 10Gb networking is faster than a "normal" speed SSD
Non-removeable? Encrypted with the on board T2 chip? A lot of companies want that kind of security
High price? Corporate customers usually don't care as long as they're getting what they want

I'd definitely like to see a consumer level Mini and it's obvious that a lot of other people here also would. I'm just pretty sure that Apple has permanently moved the Mac lineup upwards into targeting businesses first

 

[ApplesandOranges]

Hey, the new Mini definitely isn't designed for me either. I'd rather have just a normal, easy to reach, M2 slot for storage along with the option for cheaper "sata speed level" M2 SSDs. I'd be less happy with just a sata drive slot for a SSD, but I could live with that. Since I'm a home, "consumer" level Mac user for my personal machine, an encrypted, small size, non-removeable SSD just doesn't really make sense for me

That said, it does make sense for corporate sales and corporate sales are much of Mac sales anymore (along with the most profitable sales)

Small amount of storage? For most corporate tasks, you usually don't need much. You're instead expected to store things on the local NAS or server, both for resiliency and for sharing with other workers
High speed storage? Minis are used a lot anymore for things like iOS programming. With compile / test cycles that are pretty large anymore, high speed storage helps. In addition, you normally want storage to be faster than your network and 10Gb networking is faster than a "normal" speed SSD
Non-removeable? Encrypted with the on board T2 chip? A lot of companies want that kind of security
High price? Corporate customers usually don't care as long as they're getting what they want

I'd definitely like to see a consumer level Mini and it's obvious that a lot of other people here also would. I'm just pretty sure that Apple has permanently moved the Mac lineup upwards into targeting businesses first

Apple has been loosely throwing around the “Pro” moniker for some time. I feel they are not moving their products towards business, their moving their prices towards profits.

 

[Heat_Fan89]

Apple has been loosely throwing around the “Pro” moniker for some time. I feel they are not moving their products towards business, their moving their prices towards profits.

Maybe their definition of "Pro-sumer" is someone who has a lot of money and won't notice they are paying more for less.

Apple's problem is that there are way too many alternative options besides the Mac and MacOS. They have failed to understand that you can buy similarly spec'd PC's for less, with solid, reliable operating systems such as Windows and Linux and now Linux has seen a surge in computer builders designing their PC builds around Linux.

 

[PickUrPoison]

iPhone 5s - best possible iPhone to buy in 2013.
iPhone Xr - isn't the best possible iPhone to buy in 2019.

Spin it all you want from here

Specs matter. That’s not spin, it’s fact.

The “best possible” 2018 15” MBP was $6,699; in 2017, it was $4,299. But that was due to the availability of additional high-end components—there was no actual price increase. Yet there were posters complaining about a 50% “price increase”. Talk about spin lol.

“Best possible” changes over time. When new high-end models are introduced, the additional features and higher-specced components often cost more. Fact, not spin.

It makes no more sense comparing the 5s to the XS or XS Max—other than to artificially inflate claims of a “price increase”—than it does to compare a 2013 iMac to a 2019 iMac Pro or a 2013 “best possible” iPad to a “best possible” $1,899 2019 iPad Pro. In all three cases, there’s a more appropriate model for comparison.

The availability of a higher end/higher specced model isn’t relevant for the purpose of historical price comparisons. There’s no reason to compare the 5s to the XS or XS Max rather than the XR, unless you’re trying to spin up a case for a large increase in price between 2013 and 2019.

 

[Krevnik]

Apple has been loosely throwing around the “Pro” moniker for some time. I feel they are not moving their products towards business, their moving their prices towards profits.

I dunno, the last time we were looking at the performance of the iMac Pro, Mac Mini and aging 2013 Mac Pros to decide what to get for our engineers, the Mac Mini was surprisingly good bang for the buck. The faster SSDs in the iMac Pro and Mac Mini meant the 2013 was left in the dust, and the fact that our stuff doesn't scale well past 6-8 cores meant that the Mini was a lot closer to the iMac Pro than we expected. Which meant we had an option for kitting out many more folks with Minis for development work for the same money, and keep using some good monitors we already had folks using with the 2013 Mac Pro.

I'm also able to get along with a Mini at home where I'd have needed an iMac, in part because of eGPU support. That's currently letting me run a Gaming PC without giving up the ability to do development work on Apple, and stay within the space I have available on my desk.

So there was benefit, but I do feel the pain from the general slide upwards on the price ladder that the Mini took with the 2018.